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A true look at the new missle skills

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MindBender	Posted - 2005.07.06 15:53:00 - [1] OK time to shut up the "turret users have always needed to train skills" people. Lets take a look at the true differences by comparing the skills. 1) Rapid fire vs Rapid Launch Both are rank 2 skills but turret users get a 4% bonus as opposed to missle usres getting a 3% bonus 2) SharpShooter vs Missle Bombardment Both are rank 2 skills. But Sharpshooter not only increased range but also increases chance of hitting target and increase in damage. Missile bombardment only increases range. 3) Motion prediction vs Guided Missle Precision Motion Prediction is a rank 2 skill Guided Missle Presision is a rank 5 skill. both giving you 5% better chance of hitting small fast targets. 4) Surgical Strike vs Warhead upgrades SS is a rank 4 skill and grants a 3% increase to dmg but Warhead Upgrades is a rank 5 skill and only grants a 2% bonus. These are just a few examples. This is not a rant against the new skills. I agree they were needed but I am tired of hearing the gunnery only pilots rant that they have always needed to train skills. I have over 5mil SP in gunnery so I know what is needed in training gunnery skills.
SengH	Posted - 2005.07.06 15:56:00 - [2] you conveniently omitted trajectory analysis (Rank5) and controlled bursts(crucial for lasers and hybrids)
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.06 15:59:00 - [3] Originally by: MindBender 3) Motion prediction vs Guided Missle Precision Motion Prediction is a rank 2 skill Guided Missle Presision is a rank 5 skill. both giving you 5% better chance of hitting small fast targets. No, this increases damage against small targets by 5%. The turret skill merely increase the chance to hit, and against frigates, it'll still be misses every time inside 80k.
Na'Axin	Posted - 2005.07.06 15:59:00 - [4] and gunnery gives a 2% rof bonuse while missile launcher op give 5%
Critta	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:00:00 - [5] Missiles always hit (as far as I know they still do, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) They are also a LOT faster now so cannot be outrun half as easily. All that changes with each attack is the damage you do, there is no chance to miss and do no damage... ...so comparing Motion Prediction (chance to hit and do any damage) vs Guided Missile Precision (increases damage to small ships that you always hit) it a bit silly. Also complaining that Missile Bombardment doesn't increase your chance to hit (a miss chance if you don't have it perhaps?) I've gotta catch my lift home now, so no time to check up on any of the others, but I hope you see my point here...
PhalHell	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:00:00 - [6] 2) SharpShooter vs Missle Bombardment Both are rank 2 skills. But Sharpshooter not only increased range but also increases chance of hitting target and increase in damage. Missile bombardment only increases range. Answer : Missiles allways hit their targets !
DjDangle	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:05:00 - [7] Nice one Mindbender. Plain and to the point. If you specialised in Missiles pre=patch. Youa re now useless... Djdangle trots off to join the jobless que.....
DjDangle	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:06:00 - [8] Hehehe, also off to redesign my banner with a picture of a noob ship than a raven, it'll probably do more damage...
Valrandir	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Na'Axin and gunnery gives a 2% rof bonuse while missile launcher op give 5% This is not true anymore, check the skill details. Millile Launcher Operation gives 2% rate of fire per level, not 5% like pre-patch. --------------------------------
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:20:00 - [10] Originally by: DjDangle Plain and to the point. If you specialised in Missiles pre=patch. Youa re now useless... I think more accurately you've been brought down to the level of the rest of us, who didn't have the luxury of hitting 100% of the time with a very consistent form of damage that's only mitigated by the target's resistances. I think if people took the time to do a real comparison over time (track the data graph it) for both turrets and missiles, I think you'll see that both angles now have their own advantages and disadvantages. Translation: they're both useful platforms, the difference is now that both have their roles defined a lot more. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
AvanCade	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:21:00 - [11] Missile users have 1 advantage, they 'always' hit.
Hci Triglava	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:26:00 - [12] Missiles dont always hit. try inty, go pvping or rat hunting, use max speed. God help those missiles. hf Originally by: Critta Missiles always hit (as far as I know they still do, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) They are also a LOT faster now so cannot be outrun half as easily. All that changes with each attack is the damage you do, there is no chance to miss and do no damage... ...so comparing Motion Prediction (chance to hit and do any damage) vs Guided Missile Precision (increases damage to small ships that you always hit) it a bit silly. Also complaining that Missile Bombardment doesn't increase your chance to hit (a miss chance if you don't have it perhaps?) I've gotta catch my lift home now, so no time to check up on any of the others, but I hope you see my point here...
Hci Triglava	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Na'Axin and gunnery gives a 2% rof bonuse while missile launcher op give 5% Xcuse me? read patch info AND/OR check in game info? c'mon guys u're debating stuff that has been resolved. Gunnery \|missile warfare is now very balanced, both have strengths and weaknesses. C'est la vie. ta-ta, hf
konkord	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:36:00 - [14] Is this guy joking? if you specialised in missiles, that woould lead me to believe you were level 5 everything missiles. and if thats the case you almost back to normal for missile damages against smaller ships! I flew raven simple yo NPC and level 4 ***, and im a bit gutted i can no longer milk isk from every concievable NPC ingame anymore, but its more realistic, and means i can properly specialise in gunnery. Tech 2 Large Hybs STILL will take longer to down an NPC Angel BS than torps more than likely, so i suggest you sit down, grow up, look at your skill tree and start learning. And if ravens had half an ounce of gumption they would have tested setups in SiSi. I can still fly ravens against NPC spawns with my 500k in missiles, using the spare 2 hi slots with blasters. takes a bit longer, but it gets the job done. Get a grip. Get skilling. Stop moaning. Originally by:** DjDangle Nice one Mindbender. Plain and to the point. If you specialised in Missiles pre=patch. Youa re now useless... Djdangle trots off to join the jobless que..... -------------------------------------------- i'll make a decent siggy, dont you worry --------------------------------------------
DjDangle	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:39:00 - [15] Sorry dood? Where was the point I asked for your opinion? Originally by: konkord Is this guy joking? if you specialised in missiles, that woould lead me to believe you were level 5 everything missiles. and if thats the case you almost back to normal for missile damages against smaller ships! I flew raven simple yo NPC and level 4 ***, and im a bit gutted i can no longer milk isk from every concievable NPC ingame anymore, but its more realistic, and means i can properly specialise in gunnery. Tech 2 Large Hybs STILL will take longer to down an NPC Angel BS than torps more than likely, so i suggest you sit down, grow up, look at your skill tree and start learning. And if ravens had half an ounce of gumption they would have tested setups in SiSi. I can still fly ravens against NPC spawns with my 500k in missiles, using the spare 2 hi slots with blasters. takes a bit longer, but it gets the job done. Get a grip. Get skilling. Stop moaning. Originally by:** DjDangle Nice one Mindbender. Plain and to the point. If you specialised in Missiles pre=patch. Youa re now useless... Djdangle trots off to join the jobless que.....
s73v3n2k	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Valrandir Originally by: Na'Axin and gunnery gives a 2% rof bonuse while missile launcher op give 5% This is not true anymore, check the skill details. Millile Launcher Operation gives 2% rate of fire per level, not 5% like pre-patch. I pointed this out before the patch what i couldn't undertsand is we were being asked to train a skill to get back a bonus we had taken away. This just meant more training time for no real reason i.e. it wasn't necessary.
Rawthorm	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:41:00 - [17] Edited by: Rawthorm on 06/07/2005 16:41:08 Originally by: AvanCade Missile users have 1 advantage, they 'always' hit. True but a hit for 0.2 damage is as bad as your "barely misses" and while we get the 0.2 all the time, you can prevent your "barely misses" by changing range or ammo.
konkord	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:42:00 - [18] you posted on the forums, thus putting your opinion out there. i am giving you my opinion, dont care if you want it or not. However, this post is jsut as constructive as the last one. Keep up the good work! Originally by: DjDangle Sorry dood? Where was the point I asked for your opinion? Originally by: konkord Is this guy joking? if you specialised in missiles, that woould lead me to believe you were level 5 everything missiles. and if thats the case you almost back to normal for missile damages against smaller ships! I flew raven simple yo NPC and level 4 ***, and im a bit gutted i can no longer milk isk from every concievable NPC ingame anymore, but its more realistic, and means i can properly specialise in gunnery. Tech 2 Large Hybs STILL will take longer to down an NPC Angel BS than torps more than likely, so i suggest you sit down, grow up, look at your skill tree and start learning. And if ravens had half an ounce of gumption they would have tested setups in SiSi. I can still fly ravens against NPC spawns with my 500k in missiles, using the spare 2 hi slots with blasters. takes a bit longer, but it gets the job done. Get a grip. Get skilling. Stop moaning. Originally by:** DjDangle Nice one Mindbender. Plain and to the point. If you specialised in Missiles pre=patch. Youa re now useless... Djdangle trots off to join the jobless que..... -------------------------------------------- i'll make a decent siggy, dont you worry --------------------------------------------
eliste	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:46:00 - [19] Originally by: Hci Triglava Missiles dont always hit. try inty, go pvping or rat hunting, use max speed. God help those missiles. hf Thats is exactly why it is not a nerf. Pre Patch there was no chance to hit a Crow with missles, if you train up your skills you might actually get lucky. Still, I think from a PvP point of view the changes are going to help Crow's more than hurt. From PvE it is no contest the frigs got it better now. An AF is no doubt the fastest way to complete level 3s. I can't wait to try the exraveganza bonus stage now that I don't have to worry about those damn torps (although getting to the sentry gun could be a little hairy) For those of you in Ravens, If the set up Drunken gave you doesn't work, I'll suspect user error. Bottom line, maybe CCP screwed up, but there is no way to know that until people have trained up their new skills.
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.07.06 16:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Rawthorm Edited by: Rawthorm on 06/07/2005 16:41:08 Originally by: AvanCade Missile users have 1 advantage, they 'always' hit. True but a hit for 0.2 damage is as bad as your "barely misses" and while we get the 0.2 all the time, you can prevent your "barely misses" by changing range or ammo. yea we may have the option of changing ammo type to hit at different ranges but you dont have to you hit just as weell at all ranges its just that you can outrun missiles but that takes skill and training time to be fast. besides most if not all ships that can outrun missiles are in the frig size so cant outrun missiles tailored for this type of ship Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Critta	Posted - 2005.07.06 17:06:00 - [21] Edited by: Critta on 06/07/2005 17:07:49 That was pre patch, have you seen how fast missiles are now? Cruise Missiles Velocity has been increased from 1600m/s to 3750m/s base, capable of 5625m/s with skills and 8438m/s with a single ship bonus Heavy Missiles and Light Missiles Velocity has been increased from 1600m/s to 3750m/s base, capable of 5625m/s with skills and 8438m/s with a single ship bonus Even torps do nearly 3k a second, all the ranges once skills have been trained have also been increased, with a Gistii MWD and a couple of nano's you can get a Crusader to about 7km/s you might just be able to get an inty to outrun the faster missiles, but it would take godly nav skills and some expensive named kit. VS Rats, maybe you would just about outrun them still, but against a player with any kind of skills, you aren't gonna be outrunning them in a hurry. With the increased ranges you're also gonna be running for a long time if you try... My point stands I believe. Originally by: Hci Triglava Missiles dont always hit. try inty, go pvping or rat hunting, use max speed. God help those missiles. hf Originally by: Critta Missiles always hit (as far as I know they still do, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) They are also a LOT faster now so cannot be outrun half as easily. All that changes with each attack is the damage you do, there is no chance to miss and do no damage... ...so comparing Motion Prediction (chance to hit and do any damage) vs Guided Missile Precision (increases damage to small ships that you always hit) it a bit silly. Also complaining that Missile Bombardment doesn't increase your chance to hit (a miss chance if you don't have it perhaps?) I've gotta catch my lift home now, so no time to check up on any of the others, but I hope you see my point here...
marshal123	Posted - 2005.07.06 17:27:00 - [22] Well i would like to say missles are not guns and should never have been compared to them in this way or have similar skills to learn. This is a nerf pure and simple and there is no getting away from that. ccp needed to fix the lagg issues which is why torps have been nerfed the most cause basically all those level 4 runners in the same systems firing torps with massive explosions graphics caused lag so ccps solution is trying to stop there use all together or very rarel = less lag + very moody raven pilots who have nothing to do till they learn these skills to apropriate levels to even come close to where they were pre patch. and to say again its a nerf we do lesss damge fire rates dropped and more so that is a nerf pure and simple.
Critta	Posted - 2005.07.06 17:34:00 - [23] Why can nobody see that once raven pilots learn all the missile skills.... they will be DPS beasts? In the very short term it is a nerf, once you learn those skills, this is nothing but a buff... really.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.06 17:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Critta Why can nobody see that once raven pilots learn all the missile skills.... they will be DPS beasts? In the very short term it is a nerf, once you learn those skills, this is nothing but a buff... really. omg hi critta, when did u come back?
Critta	Posted - 2005.07.06 17:47:00 - [25] ello Drunk, been back about a week or so... Monty showed me the 5 vs Xetic fraps and it kind made me sign back up there and then :D
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:01:00 - [26] Okay, since ISD is in the habit of deleting any post I make on these forums about missiles I'm going to ask again: Does anyone know if the Rapid Launch and Missile Operation skill bonuses are cumulative or are they calculated seperately? I.E., Does the 10% bonus and 15% bonus for having both at level 5 add up to a complete 25% ROF bonus, or is one skill added after the other so that the ROF bonus is 23.5%?
marioman	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:09:00 - [27] individual skills are counted seperate
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Critta ello Drunk, been back about a week or so... Monty showed me the 5 vs Xetic fraps and it kind made me sign back up there and then :D go watch my vids :)
Critta	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:21:00 - [29] Originally by: marshal123 Well i would like to say missles are not guns and should never have been compared to them in this way or have similar skills to learn. This is a nerf pure and simple and there is no getting away from that. So what you are saying is that missiles and guns shouldn't be balanced with each other? Care to back that up with a reason? Also, once you have learnt the skills, you will do more damage, quicker and out to a longer range Go figure. Originally by: marshal123 ccp needed to fix the lagg issues which is why torps have been nerfed the most cause basically all those level 4 runners in the same systems firing torps with massive explosions graphics caused lag so ccps solution is trying to stop there use all together or very rarel = less lag + very moody raven pilots who have nothing to do till they learn these skills to apropriate levels to even come close to where they were pre patch. and to say again its a nerf we do lesss damge fire rates dropped and more so that is a nerf pure and simple. Torps now only effect large ships, if you want to hit smaller ships, fit smaller missiles/launchers... ..it's not a nerf if you actually read the numbers and work it out, you just have to adapt your setup a bit... I bet your torps still damage BS class vessels a treat... ...does anyone ever read the announcements or the patch notes I wonder?
Critta	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:33:00 - [30] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Critta ello Drunk, been back about a week or so... Monty showed me the 5 vs Xetic fraps and it kind made me sign back up there and then :D go watch my vids :) Where, where?

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