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Suggestion to Fix Thorax

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CDLPeacemaker	Posted - 2005.07.07 06:57:00 - [1] I was talking to some people about the thorax tonight and the solution hit in the face. Just do the same thing they did with oversized ABs. Why is it that oversized ABs add a massive amount of mass to a ship when a armor plate and a shield extender does not? My suggestion is that Armor plates and shield extenders on ONLY undersized ships should add a very large amount of mass. Great. Your thorax can still tank like a beast.... but it cant go 1000m/s anymore... thats fair. Half the drone bay would be good too. It just does too much damage. I took out two 1600mm plate maulers the other day and they halfed my 1600mm plate thorax. Yes. I fly Thoraxs... they are overpowered. This seems like a logical solution. 1600mm - BS 800mm - BS, BC, Low effect to cruisers 400mm - BS, BC, Cruisers 200mm - BS, BC, Cruiser, Low effect to frigs 100mm - All 50mm - all Large Extender - BS, BC med - BS, BC, Cruiser, Low effects to frigs Small / Micro - All
Eirelynn	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:09:00 - [2] Yeah, it doesn't make sense that a 50mm plate on a bs has the same slowing effect that a 1600mm plate on a cruiser does. Also, they need to fix 800mm named plate drops from rats (if they haven't fixed that already).
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:19:00 - [3] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:20:23 /sign The Thorax puts out several times the damage of other cruisers, and is still able to easily fit a 1600mm plate for 4000+ HP. Forcing the Thorax to choose between speed and tanking ability seems like a good way to solve the problem. The Thorax should be the king of close-range combat. However, it SHOULD lose in long range engagements. The problem currently is that with that much HP, a Thorax doesn't have much trouble closing longer distances with a big plate fitted to absorb all the damage, and thusly becomes the king of medium range engagements as well. A Thorax pilot with Light Neutron Blasters and a 1400mm plate fitted with all relevant gunnery skills to lvl 4 and Heavy Drones III does 253 dmg/sec. A Maller with Heavy Beams and Gamma M fitted does 85 dmg/sec (assuming the same skills applied to energy weapons). And if it fits out for longer range (like 30km) it does even less damage. Problem? Yes. In any case, I like CDLPeacemaker's solution. It solved the problem of the abuse of oversized AB modules, it could do the same thing for Plates and Extenders.
Malacore	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:34:00 - [4] Are you kidding? The thorax needs all those things! I don't know why but a fanboi will probably be here soon to make up a half assed excuse. Until then, I think this sounds like a pretty good idea, which means its not likely to happen.
Hank	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:35:00 - [5] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=197593 ....... Just leave this kind of stuff to us mate, stick to missions.
Malacore	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Hank http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=197593 ....... Just leave this kind of stuff to us mate, stick to missions. That was a low blow. But the ship needs fixing.
Terradoct	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:40:00 - [7] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:20:23 /sign The Thorax puts out several times the damage of other cruisers, and is still able to easily fit a 1600mm plate for 4000+ HP. Forcing the Thorax to choose between speed and tanking ability seems like a good way to solve the problem. The Thorax should be the king of close-range combat. However, it SHOULD lose in long range engagements. The problem currently is that with that much HP, a Thorax doesn't have much trouble closing longer distances with a big plate fitted to absorb all the damage, and thusly becomes the king of medium range engagements as well. A Thorax pilot with Light Neutron Blasters and a 1400mm plate fitted with all relevant gunnery skills to lvl 4 and Heavy Drones III does 253 dmg/sec. A Maller with Heavy Beams and Gamma M fitted does 85 dmg/sec (assuming the same skills applied to energy weapons). And if it fits out for longer range (like 30km) it does even less damage. Problem? Yes. In any case, I like CDLPeacemaker's solution. It solved the problem of the abuse of oversized AB modules, it could do the same thing for Plates and Extenders. If you can only snipe that your problem. I had to put thorax in his limit by making many test fight, trying different setups. An 1600mm plate isn't enoth you need a personal skill to fly it. If you cannot deafit 1600mm thorax, it doesn't mean that he is overpowered
Malacore	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:45:00 - [8] Like I said.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:47:00 - [9] If you can't see that a ship that does several times the damage of other lvl 3 cruisers AND can have twice the HP at the same time is overpowered, please, give me a good arguement why it's balanced.
Terradoct	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:51:00 - [10] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK If you can't see that a ship that does several times the damage of other lvl 3 cruisers AND can have twice the HP at the same time is overpowered, please, give me a good arguement why it's balanced. To do such dmg I have get in close, like exiting from warp right in frot your nose...
Malacore	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:53:00 - [11] Which isn't necessarily hard when you're fitting plating 5 feet thick and still moving, how to say, pretty damned fast.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:54:00 - [12] Couldn't have said it better Malacore.
Terradoct	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Malacore Which isn't necessarily hard when you're fitting plating 5 feet thick and still moving, how to say, pretty damned fast. 1 moa pilot put me in 50% structure 1 thorax pilot ( he was w/o 1600mm plating ) forced me to warp out. Now tell me how hard it is to get close to target?
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 07:59:00 - [14] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:59:47 I assume the Moa was sniping at you, in which case the Thorax is SUPPOSED to lose. As for the other Thorax pilot, using Heavy Electron Blasters instead of Light Neutrons (including the med turret damage bonus and cruiser IV) is 37 dmg/second higher (assuming gunnery skills at lvl 4). So, you're saying that he was doing 37 dmg/second more damage than you, you had over 4000 HP, and you lost?
K3NDY	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:03:00 - [15] stop whining, the thorax is just fine, u should just train the skills to use one or start a gallente alt. dont try to stop us having good ships coz u made the wrong racial choice!
Gunstar Zero	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:05:00 - [16] I'd completely agree, the thorax is overpowered. However, I'd prefer to see the other cruisers buffed.
Terradoct	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:08:00 - [17] if you let thorax get close to you, you SHOULD and WILL die!!!
Edoo	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:16:00 - [18] Guys what you arent considering is that the Thorax isn't the only ship that can use a 1600 plate, its just been the first that people have adapted it too. Any cruiser/battlecruiser/bs can use one. In order to use it we have to sacrifice medium guns too.... which means that if your using small blasters, its easy to stay of of thorax range, and if theyre using small rails the damage is just stupid. Thorax is in fact easier to kill than other cruisers which fit plates. Any ship faster than it is immediately invincible. Thorax is balanced, lets keep it that way.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:27:00 - [19] Small blasters on a Thorax will only contribute to a small percentage of the damage it outputs. With Heavy Drones III a Thorax puts out 160 dmg/sec through its drones. With Heavy Electrons all gunnery skills at lvl 4 and Gallente Cruiser 4, it does 130 dmg/sec. With Light Neutrons, it does 93 dmg/sec. As you can see, going from Heavy Electrons to Light Neutrons decreases firepower by only 37 dmg/second. But the Heavy Drones are the key. They actually contribute to the majority of the Thorax's power. This is what allows it to fit a plate and still do so much damage. No other ship that can fit a plate has this ability. Fitting a 1600mm plate, and medium guns is a very difficult task, and even then other cruisers won't match the damage the Thorax does with it's drones.
Edoo	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:37:00 - [20] Anyway the thorax NEEDS the plate, because it doesn't have enough cap to tank.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:37:00 - [21] 40km if you've got Scout Drones 4, and 700m/s is more than enough to catch up with most cruisers. This thread is turning into yet another cesspit of Thorax pilot denial.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:43:00 - [22] The problem with the Rax is the drones, not it's use of 1600mm plates. Nerf oversized plates, and you also nerf a lot of other decent setups for Cruisers and Inties. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Terradoct	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:45:00 - [23] Edited by: Terradoct on 07/07/2005 08:46:43 You know why they braging about overpowered thorax? Today i jumped on small gang ( tempest, scorp, ferox ) in my thorax, after exiting warp distance was 10-15km. End result was: Scorp warped out 1 minute after beging of fight. Ferox warped out on structure Tempest died. My armor never droped below 70% P.S.: on test server
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:46:00 - [24] I'll grant you that. I personally would prefer a nerf to the drone bay, or make heavy drones unable to fit into cruiser drone bays, or make them terrible at tracking cruisers (I mean, a .2 tracking speed on what is technically a BS item is sorta funky).
Akaviri	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:47:00 - [25] I agree that it's dronebay should be reduced, but only to 150m3 or so. I think a reduction to 100m3 would cripple the ship to the point that a Vexor (a tier 2 cruiser) would be a better overall ship. The Stabber and Rupture would also have it's way with the Thorax. Even right now a Stabber has a good chance against a 1600mm plate Blasterax. I really like the armor idea though. It makes sense, but sadly this is one of the few things that helps cruisers survive amidst battleships. Any change to slow cruisers down will just nerf them after they all got a nice agility boost. In the end I think these plates should be left alone for now. But give me those named 800mm plates. Anyway, I think the best thing would be to boost most other cruisers. Though I'm not sure the Stabber or Rupture need a boost, but lets boost them anyway. ````````````` _ \|\_ ````````````` \` oo\ ````````_____/ =__Y= `````` /` `````` ) `_``` / ` , ``` \/\_.(\_/) ((____\| `` )_--\ \_-`(x.x) `------'`------` `--` (> <) Kitty pwns Bunny!
Edoo	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:47:00 - [26] A bit of sense saves you from a thorax. No one ever kills the drones. If you do that you badly reduce the damage output. I wouldnt win any fights if they decided to kill my drones lol. And t2 drones will be expensive, and a bigger loss when they get shot In fact the t2 drone thing is gonna be a bit of a money drain.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:47:00 - [27] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 08:48:36 You're talking about what happened at FFA on SiSi, and my friend was in the Tempest. But, if you'll check back a few pages, you can see I've been complaining about the Rax's D-Bay for a while now. Edit- and yes, we'd all love a boost to all cruisers as a solution to this problem, the trick is convincing the devs that...
Morat Jernau	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:50:00 - [28] Best way to fix the Thorax is to ban all posts about it on the forums. As for tanking like a beast, a Maller should quite easily beat a Thorax, just remember to aim for the drones first.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:51:00 - [29] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 08:56:35 Originally by: Edoo A bit of sense saves you from a thorax. No one ever kills the drones. If you do that you badly reduce the damage output. I wouldnt win any fights if they decided to kill my drones lol. And t2 drones will be expensive, and a bigger loss when they get shot In fact the t2 drone thing is gonna be a bit of a money drain. Takes 5 detonations of a Medium Smartbomb to kill a Heavy Drone. With Energy Pulse Weapons to 4 that's 8 second intervals, or 40 seconds. During that period of time, 8 heavy drones can do 6400 points of damage (assuming Heavy Drones III). Edit- as for killing the drones one by one using turrets, I don't see that as feasible versus attacking the Thorax itself. With a 25m signature radius 700m/s speed, orbiting at 1km, and 440 HP each, it's going to take a bit to kill those 8 drones with cruiser guns... and while they're doing damage to you (as well as the Thorax if it's in range) sounds awful tough.
JoCool	Posted - 2005.07.07 08:52:00 - [30] Just half the drone space and we're good.

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