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CDLPeacemaker
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Posted - 2005.07.07 06:57:00 -
[1]
I was talking to some people about the thorax tonight and the solution hit in the face. Just do the same thing they did with oversized ABs. Why is it that oversized ABs add a massive amount of mass to a ship when a armor plate and a shield extender does not? My suggestion is that Armor plates and shield extenders on ONLY undersized ships should add a very large amount of mass. Great. Your thorax can still tank like a beast.... but it cant go 1000m/s anymore... thats fair. Half the drone bay would be good too. It just does too much damage. I took out two 1600mm plate maulers the other day and they halfed my 1600mm plate thorax. Yes. I fly Thoraxs... they are overpowered. This seems like a logical solution.
1600mm - BS
800mm - BS, BC, Low effect to cruisers
400mm - BS, BC, Cruisers
200mm - BS, BC, Cruiser, Low effect to frigs
100mm - All
50mm - all
Large Extender - BS, BC
med - BS, BC, Cruiser, Low effects to frigs
Small / Micro - All
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Eirelynn
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:09:00 -
[2]
Yeah, it doesn't make sense that a 50mm plate on a bs has the same slowing effect that a 1600mm plate on a cruiser does.
Also, they need to fix 800mm named plate drops from rats (if they haven't fixed that already).
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:19:00 -
[3]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:20:23
/sign
The Thorax puts out several times the damage of other cruisers, and is still able to easily fit a 1600mm plate for 4000+ HP. Forcing the Thorax to choose between speed and tanking ability seems like a good way to solve the problem.
The Thorax should be the king of close-range combat. However, it SHOULD lose in long range engagements. The problem currently is that with that much HP, a Thorax doesn't have much trouble closing longer distances with a big plate fitted to absorb all the damage, and thusly becomes the king of medium range engagements as well.
A Thorax pilot with Light Neutron Blasters and a 1400mm plate fitted with all relevant gunnery skills to lvl 4 and Heavy Drones III does 253 dmg/sec. A Maller with Heavy Beams and Gamma M fitted does 85 dmg/sec (assuming the same skills applied to energy weapons). And if it fits out for longer range (like 30km) it does even less damage. Problem? Yes. In any case, I like CDLPeacemaker's solution. It solved the problem of the abuse of oversized AB modules, it could do the same thing for Plates and Extenders.
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Malacore
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:34:00 -
[4]
Are you kidding?
The thorax needs all those things!
I don't know why but a fanboi will probably be here soon to make up a half assed excuse.
Until then, I think this sounds like a pretty good idea, which means its not likely to happen.
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Hank
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:35:00 -
[5]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=197593
.......
Just leave this kind of stuff to us mate, stick to missions.
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Malacore
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:37:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Hank
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=197593
.......
Just leave this kind of stuff to us mate, stick to missions.
That was a low blow. But the ship needs fixing.
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Terradoct
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:20:23
/sign
The Thorax puts out several times the damage of other cruisers, and is still able to easily fit a 1600mm plate for 4000+ HP. Forcing the Thorax to choose between speed and tanking ability seems like a good way to solve the problem.
The Thorax should be the king of close-range combat. However, it SHOULD lose in long range engagements. The problem currently is that with that much HP, a Thorax doesn't have much trouble closing longer distances with a big plate fitted to absorb all the damage, and thusly becomes the king of medium range engagements as well.
A Thorax pilot with Light Neutron Blasters and a 1400mm plate fitted with all relevant gunnery skills to lvl 4 and Heavy Drones III does 253 dmg/sec. A Maller with Heavy Beams and Gamma M fitted does 85 dmg/sec (assuming the same skills applied to energy weapons). And if it fits out for longer range (like 30km) it does even less damage. Problem? Yes. In any case, I like CDLPeacemaker's solution. It solved the problem of the abuse of oversized AB modules, it could do the same thing for Plates and Extenders.
If you can only snipe that your problem. I had
to put thorax in his limit by making many test fight, trying different setups. An 1600mm plate isn't enoth you need a personal skill to fly it. If you cannot deafit 1600mm thorax, it doesn't mean that he is overpowered
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Malacore
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:45:00 -
[8]
Like I said. 
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:47:00 -
[9]
If you can't see that a ship that does several times the damage of other lvl 3 cruisers AND can have twice the HP at the same time is overpowered, please, give me a good arguement why it's balanced.
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Terradoct
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
If you can't see that a ship that does several times the damage of other lvl 3 cruisers AND can have twice the HP at the same time is overpowered, please, give me a good arguement why it's balanced.
To do such dmg I have get in close, like exiting from warp right in frot your nose...
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Malacore
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:53:00 -
[11]
Which isn't necessarily hard when you're fitting plating 5 feet thick and still moving, how to say, pretty damned fast.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:54:00 -
[12]
Couldn't have said it better Malacore.
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Terradoct
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Malacore
Which isn't necessarily hard when you're fitting plating 5 feet thick and still moving, how to say, pretty damned fast.
1 moa pilot put me in 50% structure
1 thorax pilot ( he was w/o 1600mm plating ) forced me to warp out.
Now tell me how hard it is to get close to target?
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 07:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:59:47
I assume the Moa was sniping at you, in which case the Thorax is SUPPOSED to lose.
As for the other Thorax pilot, using Heavy Electron Blasters instead of Light Neutrons (including the med turret damage bonus and cruiser IV) is 37 dmg/second higher (assuming gunnery skills at lvl 4). So, you're saying that he was doing 37 dmg/second more damage than you, you had over 4000 HP, and you lost?
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K3NDY
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:03:00 -
[15]
stop whining, the thorax is just fine, u should just train the skills to use one or start a gallente alt.
dont try to stop us having good ships coz u made the wrong racial choice!
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:05:00 -
[16]
I'd completely agree, the thorax is overpowered.
However, I'd prefer to see the other cruisers buffed.
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Terradoct
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:08:00 -
[17]
if you let thorax get close to you, you SHOULD and WILL die!!!
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Edoo
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:16:00 -
[18]
Guys what you arent considering is that the Thorax isn't the only ship that can use a 1600 plate, its just been the first that people have adapted it too. Any cruiser/battlecruiser/bs can use one. In order to use it we have to sacrifice medium guns too.... which means that if your using small blasters, its easy to stay of of thorax range, and if theyre using small rails the damage is just stupid. Thorax is in fact easier to kill than other cruisers which fit plates. Any ship faster than it is immediately invincible. Thorax is balanced, lets keep it that way.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:27:00 -
[19]
Small blasters on a Thorax will only contribute to a small percentage of the damage it outputs. With Heavy Drones III a Thorax puts out 160 dmg/sec through its drones. With Heavy Electrons all gunnery skills at lvl 4 and Gallente Cruiser 4, it does 130 dmg/sec. With Light Neutrons, it does 93 dmg/sec. As you can see, going from Heavy Electrons to Light Neutrons decreases firepower by only 37 dmg/second. But the Heavy Drones are the key. They actually contribute to the majority of the Thorax's power. This is what allows it to fit a plate and still do so much damage.
No other ship that can fit a plate has this ability. Fitting a 1600mm plate, and medium guns is a very difficult task, and even then other cruisers won't match the damage the Thorax does with it's drones.
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Edoo
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:37:00 -
[20]
Anyway the thorax NEEDS the plate, because it doesn't have enough cap to tank.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:37:00 -
[21]
40km if you've got Scout Drones 4, and 700m/s is more than enough to catch up with most cruisers.
This thread is turning into yet another cesspit of Thorax pilot denial. 
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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:43:00 -
[22]
The problem with the Rax is the drones, not it's use of 1600mm plates. Nerf oversized plates, and you also nerf a lot of other decent setups for Cruisers and Inties.
----------------------------------------
Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Terradoct
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:45:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Terradoct on 07/07/2005 08:46:43
You know why they braging about overpowered thorax?
Today i jumped on small gang ( tempest, scorp, ferox ) in my thorax, after exiting warp distance was 10-15km. End result was:
Scorp warped out 1 minute after beging of fight.
Ferox warped out on structure
Tempest died.
My armor never droped below 70%
P.S.: on test server
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:46:00 -
[24]
I'll grant you that. I personally would prefer a nerf to the drone bay, or make heavy drones unable to fit into cruiser drone bays, or make them terrible at tracking cruisers (I mean, a .2 tracking speed on what is technically a BS item is sorta funky).
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Akaviri
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:47:00 -
[25]
I agree that it's dronebay should be reduced, but only to 150m3 or so. I think a reduction to 100m3 would cripple the ship to the point that a Vexor (a tier 2 cruiser) would be a better overall ship. The Stabber and Rupture would also have it's way with the Thorax. Even right now a Stabber has a good chance against a 1600mm plate Blasterax.
I really like the armor idea though. It makes sense, but sadly this is one of the few things that helps cruisers survive amidst battleships. Any change to slow cruisers down will just nerf them after they all got a nice agility boost. In the end I think these plates should be left alone for now. But give me those named 800mm plates.
Anyway, I think the best thing would be to boost most other cruisers. Though I'm not sure the Stabber or Rupture need a boost, but lets boost them anyway.
````````````` _ |\_
````````````` \` oo\
````````_____/ =__Y=
`````` /` `````` )
`_``` / ` , ``` \/\_.(\_/)
((____| `` )_--\ \_-`(x.x)
`------'`------` `--` (> <) Kitty pwns Bunny! |
Edoo
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:47:00 -
[26]
A bit of sense saves you from a thorax. No one ever kills the drones. If you do that you badly reduce the damage output. I wouldnt win any fights if they decided to kill my drones lol. And t2 drones will be expensive, and a bigger loss when they get shot  In fact the t2 drone thing is gonna be a bit of a money drain.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:47:00 -
[27]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 08:48:36
You're talking about what happened at FFA on SiSi, and my friend was in the Tempest. But, if you'll check back a few pages, you can see I've been complaining about the Rax's D-Bay for a while now. 
Edit- and yes, we'd all love a boost to all cruisers as a solution to this problem, the trick is convincing the devs that...
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Morat Jernau
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:50:00 -
[28]
Best way to fix the Thorax is to ban all posts about it on the forums.
As for tanking like a beast, a Maller should quite easily beat a Thorax, just remember to aim for the drones first. |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:51:00 -
[29]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 08:56:35
Originally by: Edoo
A bit of sense saves you from a thorax. No one ever kills the drones. If you do that you badly reduce the damage output. I wouldnt win any fights if they decided to kill my drones lol. And t2 drones will be expensive, and a bigger loss when they get shot In fact the t2 drone thing is gonna be a bit of a money drain.
Takes 5 detonations of a Medium Smartbomb to kill a Heavy Drone. With Energy Pulse Weapons to 4 that's 8 second intervals, or 40 seconds. During that period of time, 8 heavy drones can do 6400 points of damage (assuming Heavy Drones III).
Edit- as for killing the drones one by one using turrets, I don't see that as feasible versus attacking the Thorax itself. With a 25m signature radius 700m/s speed, orbiting at 1km, and 440 HP each, it's going to take a bit to kill those 8 drones with cruiser guns... and while they're doing damage to you (as well as the Thorax if it's in range) sounds awful tough.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.07.07 08:52:00 -
[30]
Just half the drone space and we're good.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:05:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 07/07/2005 09:10:19
it hink the authors idea is good, signed
the prob i have with the plates, is that u cant mount a bs shield ext on a cald crusier
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Sennju Zensu
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:12:00 -
[32]
btw, if you pu a 1600mm you sacrifice a ton of powergrid, and so, not able to fitt med guns, so you dont make lot of damage.
so better tank but less DPS, or better DPS ant less armor .... that's just a choice
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OzaLoni
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:26:00 -
[33]
What is the problem...... fit nos, web and target painter and thorax is in big trouble.....
At the end of the day, you usually never know what your going to face... but these are some of the more usual fitting items for pvp?
Thorax's have been popping bs's long before these changes came out so....?
The Great Oz... |
Morat Jernau
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:29:00 -
[34]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edit- as for killing the drones one by one using turrets, I don't see that as feasible versus attacking the Thorax itself. With a 25m signature radius 700m/s speed, orbiting at 1km, and 440 HP each, it's going to take a bit to kill those 8 drones with cruiser guns... and while they're doing damage to you (as well as the Thorax if it's in range) sounds awful tough.
Killing the drones one by one works like a dream, just web them and they die very quickly. Give it a try - a Maller with frig guns works brilliant.
I think the main problem with the Thorax isn't that its overpowered, its more a lack of creativity on the part of people trying to kill them. |
Snaieke
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Gunstar Zero
I'd completely agree, the thorax is overpowered.
However, I'd prefer to see the other cruisers buffed.
Agree. Rather than nerfing a ship, for once we could see a class boost to fix the balance issue. Althought, I do know cruisers have got some lovin' which is good.
My names Blind Lemon Jefferson, 'nd I 'dun plucked out muh eyes fuh Jesus
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Pagefault
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:44:00 -
[36]
Do i get that right? Every1 complained for months that cruisers are so underpowered... now some1 was killed by one of these so "underpowered" ships, and we get a 2 page thread of whining and crying for TomB's nerfbat(tm)???? Omg... if thorax is overpowered: use it and stfu!!!
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Edoo
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 08:56:35
Originally by: Edoo
A bit of sense saves you from a thorax. No one ever kills the drones. If you do that you badly reduce the damage output. I wouldnt win any fights if they decided to kill my drones lol. And t2 drones will be expensive, and a bigger loss when they get shot In fact the t2 drone thing is gonna be a bit of a money drain.
Takes 5 detonations of a Medium Smartbomb to kill a Heavy Drone. With Energy Pulse Weapons to 4 that's 8 second intervals, or 40 seconds. During that period of time, 8 heavy drones can do 6400 points of damage (assuming Heavy Drones III).
Edit- as for killing the drones one by one using turrets, I don't see that as feasible versus attacking the Thorax itself. With a 25m signature radius 700m/s speed, orbiting at 1km, and 440 HP each, it's going to take a bit to kill those 8 drones with cruiser guns... and while they're doing damage to you (as well as the Thorax if it's in range) sounds awful tough.
a decent cruiser pilot kills a drone in seconds. especially when far away.
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Arud
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:53:00 -
[38]
The plate idea is excelent. /signed
And take notice everyone, the plate idea would affect everyone, not just the thorax.
Another nerf would be to keep heavy drone sizes like they were before patch, the size that is. Then make the dronebay on the thorax alot smaller like it is now along with light and medium drone sizes. Keep the dronebay sizes battleships have like before the patch.
So what you have is this
Thorax Drone bay: 100 (with this change it only needs that for 10 medium drones)
Apoc Drone bay: 1500
Heavy drone size: 250
Medium drone size: 10
Light drone size: 5
More in line with the ship sizes in general, might change the size of heavy drones down to 200 or 150.
The moral of the story for crusiers to use heavy drones is like crusiers to use battleship sized weapons.
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Edoo
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Posted - 2005.07.07 09:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Arud
The plate idea is excelent. /signed
And take notice everyone, the plate idea would affect everyone, not just the thorax.
Another nerf would be to keep heavy drone sizes like they were before patch, the size that is. Then make the dronebay on the thorax alot smaller like it is now along with light and medium drone sizes. Keep the dronebay sizes battleships have like before the patch.
So what you have is this
Thorax Drone bay: 100 (with this change it only needs that for 10 medium drones)
Apoc Drone bay: 1500
Heavy drone size: 250
Medium drone size: 10
Light drone size: 5
More in line with the ship sizes in general, might change the size of heavy drones down to 200 or 150.
The moral of the story for crusiers to use heavy drones is like crusiers to use battleship sized weapons.
no, because then thorax could never win a fight. It would be beaten by ANY decent caracal, maller or rupture pilot, + any assault frig, the list goes on. The thorax is balanced, just use your initiative on how to beat it.
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sableye
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Posted - 2005.07.07 12:29:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 07/07/2005 09:10:19
it hink the authors idea is good, signed
the prob i have with the plates, is that u cant mount a bs shield ext on a cald crusier
hmm I have'nt tried in a few months but I used to have no problems mounting them on my caldari cruisers.
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true sight
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Posted - 2005.07.07 12:30:00 -
[41]
Its broken?
True Sight
President Foiritan Emissary
--<<!SUPPORT DRONES!>>--
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benwallace
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Posted - 2005.07.07 12:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Edoo
Originally by: Arud
The plate idea is excelent. /signed
And take notice everyone, the plate idea would affect everyone, not just the thorax.
Another nerf would be to keep heavy drone sizes like they were before patch, the size that is. Then make the dronebay on the thorax alot smaller like it is now along with light and medium drone sizes. Keep the dronebay sizes battleships have like before the patch.
So what you have is this
Thorax Drone bay: 100 (with this change it only needs that for 10 medium drones)
Apoc Drone bay: 1500
Heavy drone size: 250
Medium drone size: 10
Light drone size: 5
More in line with the ship sizes in general, might change the size of heavy drones down to 200 or 150.
The moral of the story for crusiers to use heavy drones is like crusiers to use battleship sized weapons.
no, because then thorax could never win a fight. It would be beaten by ANY decent caracal, maller or rupture pilot, + any assault frig, the list goes on. The thorax is balanced, just use your initiative on how to beat it.
CLearly you don't know how to use a rupture as they will *****a thorax even a stabber will if you know how to fit and fly it
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2005.07.07 12:52:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 08:56:35
Originally by: Edoo
A bit of sense saves you from a thorax. No one ever kills the drones. If you do that you badly reduce the damage output. I wouldnt win any fights if they decided to kill my drones lol. And t2 drones will be expensive, and a bigger loss when they get shot In fact the t2 drone thing is gonna be a bit of a money drain.
Takes 5 detonations of a Medium Smartbomb to kill a Heavy Drone. With Energy Pulse Weapons to 4 that's 8 second intervals, or 40 seconds. During that period of time, 8 heavy drones can do 6400 points of damage (assuming Heavy Drones III).
Edit- as for killing the drones one by one using turrets, I don't see that as feasible versus attacking the Thorax itself. With a 25m signature radius 700m/s speed, orbiting at 1km, and 440 HP each, it's going to take a bit to kill those 8 drones with cruiser guns... and while they're doing damage to you (as well as the Thorax if it's in range) sounds awful tough.
Your calculations are stupid. You calculate damage like noone has any resistances and like none of the enemies are tanking themselves. Also you assume none of them use an mwd or shoot the drones. Also you assume that the drones can only be killed one at a time by the smartbomb.
All in all, you suck at flying ships. Just quit already with your thorax whining.
Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
In the Immortal words of Kayosoni (and where applicable)
"This thread sucks. 2 Newb corps trying to make themselves look good... ugh"
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.07.07 13:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: K3NDY
stop whining, the thorax is just fine, u should just train the skills to use one or start a gallente alt.
dont try to stop us having good ships coz u made the wrong racial choice!
Race has very little to do with it - it takes 3 days to train the ship, and you can use any type of frig turrets on it. Any gunnery race should be fine.
Drones 5 is the slowest factor for me, but I need to get that for battleship combat anyway.
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.07.07 13:32:00 -
[45]
The thorax is nowhere near balanced amongst cruisers - but it should not be nerfed because it is a useful ship and not overpowered outside the cruiser class. The other combat cruisers should be given more firepower and more tanking ability to make up the difference. the 1600mm place is a hangover from the old oversized module days which saw ruptures being superb combat ships. Somehow only MWD/AB got the nerf but 1600mm slipped through leaving thorax and duramaller still possible while the wideboy Rupture got destroyed.
What cruisers need is a boost. What BattleCruisers show us is that CCP have no idea how to do it.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
stonebeard
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Posted - 2005.07.07 13:34:00 -
[46]
Omg yes, lets nerf the thorax and make it useless like all other cruisers are. Smart Idea....
Yes the thorax is unbalanced compaired to other cruisers, but it is balanced to what a cruiser should do against a battleship.
How about buff the other cruisers please, instead shouting nerf.
Also the thorax Is not that difficult to deal with if you use your brain as darken two already pointed out.
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.07.07 13:35:00 -
[47]
I hear if you web the thorax and fly away from it, you pretty much screw it over. True story.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.07 14:08:00 -
[48]
Originally by: stonebeard
Omg yes, lets nerf the thorax and make it useless like all other cruisers are. Smart Idea....
Yes the thorax is unbalanced compaired to other cruisers, but it is balanced to what a cruiser should do against a battleship.
How about buff the other cruisers please, instead shouting nerf.
Also the thorax Is not that difficult to deal with if you use your brain as darken two already pointed out.
ur sexy
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CDLPeacemaker
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Posted - 2005.07.07 15:50:00 -
[49]
So what you guys are saying is that the Thorax will lose every time because it cant tank now?
Uhhh... what happened to the Megathron. It uses the same setup just beefed up alot. It flys in and destroys battleships. The thorax right now is a do it all ship with the standard setup. 1600mm plate, small blasters yadda yadda ya. I fly it my self. I rip appart malers. I had one shoot at my drones, he killed 6 before he exploded. I had another use smart bombs. He got them all but was half structure when he did it. Both had the 1600mm plate and cruiser 4. So yea. Maybe the people with a whole crap load of SP can do it. But what about your average pilot? Negative. Hes going to die to that rax.
The 1600mm plate nerf will slow the ship down a little but more important NERF ITS AGILITY. I dont mind if the rax goes 800m/s still. Thats cool... but when it reaches the target it should overshoot/ not beable to turn with it. You still can get a battleship... if he is slow. But a cruiser without a 1600mm plate should beable to out turn your ship. Even if he is slower. Then halfing the drone bay will make it perfect.
P.S. I WOULD prefer all cruisers getting a buff.
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stonebeard
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Posted - 2005.07.07 15:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: stonebeard
Omg yes, lets nerf the thorax and make it useless like all other cruisers are. Smart Idea....
Yes the thorax is unbalanced compaired to other cruisers, but it is balanced to what a cruiser should do against a battleship.
How about buff the other cruisers please, instead shouting nerf.
Also the thorax Is not that difficult to deal with if you use your brain as darken two already pointed out.
ur sexy
Your dead sexy. Can I touch your nipples?
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CDLPeacemaker
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Posted - 2005.07.07 16:14:00 -
[51]
stay on topic please. Derailment isnt needed.
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Onmarr Shan
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Posted - 2005.07.07 16:29:00 -
[52]
Stop whining. It is fine as it is.
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The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2005.07.07 16:43:00 -
[53]
So all cruisers are faster and more agile now.
Plates get used with a lot of cruisers.
Someone notices that the 'overpowered' Thorax often is used with plates.
"I know! Let's make the use of plates cripple speed and agility!"
All cruisers (not just Thorax) are promptly less flexible and nerfed by such a change.
Sheesh..
Thorax is clearly flavour of the month for the cries of 'nerf! nerf!' but this idea just messes up an entire class that even with its patch boost struggles.
The penalty for using plates is a decrease in speed and for large plates a massive loss of grid. They are fine.
Extenders are fine too.
Leave the class alone for gawd's sake.
You want to nerf the Thorax? (I don't btw but...) Fine. Suggest a Thorax-specific solution instead of suggesting things that just cut down on useful setups across entire classes. Talk about a sledgehammer to smash a nut.
Cosmo
PS. As for ABs, the oversize penalty is to solve a specific issue that had little to do with player preferences, ie CCP wanted to slow combat flight down. They don't appear to want to reduce the number of high HP setups.
Jericho Fraction - CEO: Jade Constantine |
Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.07.07 17:00:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 07/07/2005 17:00:41
I love how a Thorax is overpowered when all you need to do is stay out of range of its blaster and tank and you win. If you get into the range of your foes blasters you should die. I mean, you have to be right on top of the enemy literly in order to use blasters. Which means, any Thorax pilot that flys right at you with MWD will also be very easy to hit and takeing quite the pounding before he or she even gets a shot off. So yeah, you better believe it is going to do massive amounts of damage in short period of time.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2005.07.07 18:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:59:47
I assume the Moa was sniping at you, in which case the Thorax is SUPPOSED to lose.
I'm still hung up on why this is a good argument, but saying that "if you let a thorax get close, you're SUPPOSED to lose" is a bad argument.
A properly equiped and piloted stabber could beat a thorax. Heavy drones are ill-equiped to deal with fast ships, and blasters are ill-equiped to deal with fast ships.
Faster ships will beat the thorax.
Sniping setups will beat the thorax (by your own admission.)
Thorax that gets close WILL win.
Why is this a problem?
Garreck
Aeternus Crusade
Aku. Soku. Zan. |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.07 18:22:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Garreck
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 07/07/2005 07:59:47
I assume the Moa was sniping at you, in which case the Thorax is SUPPOSED to lose.
I'm still hung up on why this is a good argument, but saying that "if you let a thorax get close, you're SUPPOSED to lose" is a bad argument.
A properly equiped and piloted stabber could beat a thorax. Heavy drones are ill-equiped to deal with fast ships, and blasters are ill-equiped to deal with fast ships.
Faster ships will beat the thorax.
Sniping setups will beat the thorax (by your own admission.)
Thorax that gets close WILL win.
Why is this a problem?
150 II rail or beam rax will kill stabbers or ruptures with only a slight dps loss over a light neutron II rax. And a sniper setup wont kill a thorax cause the thorax will just warp out.
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Arelesia
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Posted - 2005.07.07 18:31:00 -
[57]
Better nerf the 200m3 drone bay too, cause you know a thorax with 8 Ogre II's will be HELLFIRE ON "wheels"!!
You guys are getting pretty sad after gloating so much in the various chat channels about how leet you are.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2005.07.07 18:40:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Garreck on 07/07/2005 18:40:21
Originally by: DrunkenOne
150 II rail or beam rax will kill stabbers or ruptures with only a slight dps loss over a light neutron II rax.
The point of a fast ship would be to avoid the drones, not so much the guns. Without the damage of its drones, the firpower of a thorax with 1600mm plate is more or less pathetic.
Electr0freak and all the other thorax nay-sayers are half way to the truth. Yes; the drones of a thorax have to be neutralized to overcome a thorax. That's how you defeat a thorax. But don't use CCP to neutralize the drones, use your brain. Just like thorax pilots have to overcome distance-to-target issues to be able to kill, other cruisers have to overcome those drones. It's easily enough done. I suggested on the previous thread concerning the thorax that burst ecm is a simple enough solution. A fast cruiser is another viable option. A sniper, while unable to gaurantee a kill, will kill a strong-headed thorax pilot and force the withdrawal of a careful one.
Garreck
Aeternus Crusade
Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.07 18:49:00 -
[59]
Originally by: JoCool
Just half the drone space and we're good.
Yes. Nerfing hp tanking wont work. Will just make smaller ships suck again.
~Toh'kra Shi'Khran Pawi
A new dimension in Eve Role Play |
Tisti
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Posted - 2005.07.07 19:03:00 -
[60]
Boost others cruisers instead of nerfing the rax...
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.07 19:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Tisti
Boost others cruisers instead of nerfing the rax...
/agree
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.07.07 19:11:00 -
[62]
How about we just make the other cruisers not suck for fighting BS? Honestly the rax is the only combat cruiser worth a damn against BS. Only thing I would use my maller for is fighting frigs.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Razner Cerizo
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Posted - 2005.07.07 19:35:00 -
[63]
The thorax is overpowered. Boost the other cruisers and gimp the thoraxes drone bay, please. Its pitiful when a thorax has more drone bay than, say, the other specialized drone ships.
8 heavies is too much, reduce that to 5 or 6.
Dont nerf armor plating.
Boost other cruisers a bit, especially the arbitrator 
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Arud
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Posted - 2005.07.07 22:06:00 -
[64]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Thorax is clearly flavour of the month for the cries of 'nerf! nerf!' but this idea just messes up an entire class that even with its patch boost struggles.
the thorax has been the flavour of the month since day one except when dual mwd ruptures with crusie missiles were on top but those were as unbalanced as the game has ever gone.
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.07 22:08:00 -
[65]
I miss Torpedos on Ruptures hehe, 90k rats have never been so easy 
~Toh'kra Shi'Khran Pawi
A new dimension in Eve Role Play |
Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.07.08 17:03:00 -
[66]
To all you idiots saying thorax is overpowered, come and fight my maller, i will beat you... pff...
I have better tanking than you! better cap! i can put a med nosferatu! you cant! and most of ur damage comes from drones! i will kill ur drones, and u will be fuked up! and about thorax killing bs, two words, one module, LARGE SMARTBOMB, two activations of a large smarty = ALL Heavy drones around ur ship die 
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.08 17:27:00 -
[67]
Dred 'Morte, you are a moron. Not only you are a moron, you are ****ed off moron as I can see from you calling people who has different opinion from yours an IDIOTS?! Shut your dirty mouth.
As per constructive addition, ANY SHIP CAN BE FITTED TO KILL SAME CLASS SHIP. An example. Thorax can fit few medium vampires, mean tank, wait till he drain you and then release the drones. Maller with no energy is totaly dead Maller. No offence or deffence whatsoever. Good luck activating your smartbombs then. Or another example, ever thought about EW? Thorax has enough mids to use them. Bah... I doubt you would understand.
aka (Ohotnik) |
Haoleboy
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Posted - 2005.07.08 21:57:00 -
[68]
To the original point of this post...
Large extenders/1600mm plates on cruisers is just like having that 100mn AB/MWD on your cruiser. Why is it that only certain BS modules have horrible consequences/fitting requirements while others dont? It honestly doesnt make sense. Balance, well, we all know Gallente ships have crappy armor and cap, so fix that, not make a complete line of modules unbalanced. All the cruisers need a boost, some need a tweak. But, if your going to make 100mn ABs make you slow, ugly, and moonlit on a Cruiser, do the same damn thing for all BS-type modules. Like heavy drones, 1600mn plates, Large extenders (there got to be more, but eh).
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.08 23:03:00 -
[69]
The thing that made oversiezed ABs unbalancing wasn't the fact you could do it, it was the fact you were effectively eliminating the sig radius penalty by not using an mwd to get the same effect.
~Toh'kra Shi'Khran Pawi
A new dimension in Eve Role Play |
Ogadei
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Posted - 2005.07.10 15:33:00 -
[70]
My thoughts....
I wonder how many people here have even flown a Thorax or tried to balance out the fitting.
I think the Thorax fills a role, and it's designed to be better in certain situations. This does not mean it's 'better' than other ships in all ways. People get freaked out when they lose a fight, and the first they do is yell 'nerf!'
If every ship was the same, what would be the point of having variety?
This game is rock/paper/scissors; a Thorax can be beat by a competent pilot in another Cruiser with skills and effort; a great pilot in a good frigate could beat a crappy pilot in a Thorax; I've seen it.
Ever fight a Blaster 'Rax at 40-50k with good guns and good skills? Try it sometime and tell me if you think it still needs to be nerfed.
Og
Ne Puero Gladium
Never give a child a sword
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Toaster Oven
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Posted - 2005.07.10 18:20:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ogadei
Ever fight a Blaster 'Rax at 40-50k with good guns and good skills? Try it sometime and tell me if you think it still needs to be nerfed.
I don't quite get it. You take a few shots at a Thorax sitting at 40-50km from your cruiser. Thorax pilot warps out with more than 50% shields and laughs at you in local. And this is supposed to prove the Thorax shouldn't be nerfed?
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