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MalaMo
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Posted - 2005.07.08 13:03:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Seramis
Originally by: MalaMo
And I dont whine.. There is no need for that others will. Im just saying that defenders are useless.
No they aren't. Against 'sniping' missile boats you have enough time to launch defenders. For short range engagements, ok, maybe u don't have time for launching defenders, but with blasters in a short range megathron you hit hard, and with a tracking disruptor you can make the megathron does not hit as good as without, bu you cannot avoid that megathron hits. So why should it be possible to bar a Raven from firing it's missiles with one module in every situation?
Well raven is using one modul in evry situation 
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You see, in this world there are two types of people, my friend: those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig.
-the Good |
Wear
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Posted - 2005.07.08 13:12:00 -
[32]
I found that defenders are not fast enough to hit anything within 25k firing range.
From there out they are able to intercept.
>>input sig here<< |
Seramis
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Posted - 2005.07.08 13:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: MalaMo
Well raven is using one modul in evry situation
Use defenders (fast launchers like rocket or assault), launch defenders as soon as u see a missile leaves Raven against you. For long range all is fine, for short Range maybe u get hit by one or two missiles because u were not able to launch the defenders fast enough, but that will not kill you. So you also don't need anything more than one module. 
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.07.08 14:20:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Antic on 08/07/2005 14:22:09
Originally by: Wear
I found that defenders are not fast enough to hit anything within 25k firing range.
From there out they are able to intercept.
And below that its well within EW range for even low SP pilots to scramble the raven. Theres no FoFs for siege launchers and launch a cluster of drones at the Cruise raven and you negate his FoFs. Wich gives you ample time to kill said raven without him being able to do anything. So whats with this whining about Tracking disrupters and scramblers? You can still scramble missile ships besides using defenders.
Maybe you guys are just whinign cus its not a one size fits all pony to stop every attack in the game, instead you need to actualy think about sacrifices for wich modules you bring?
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Autumnleaves
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Posted - 2005.07.08 15:48:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Antic
Edited by: Antic on 08/07/2005 09:49:53
Dont like how defenders work now? train the new missile skills. (how often havent you told us missile users this after the patch?)
Defenders can not be activated until AFTER your opponent launches missles.
Missles now fly hellishly FAST.
There is NO WARNING that your opponent ahs launched outside of a shuush noise which sounds an aweful lot like your own launchers shuush noise.
So its darn enar impossible oustide of non stop clicking the launcher button every 1/10'th of a second to intercept jack squat at anything under insane ranges, which in a smaller ship is not the range yer fighting at.
Defender launchers need to be automatic, toggle them on and as soon as the enemy launches the defender launches in counter if the rate of fire has recycled.
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.07.08 15:48:00 -
[36]
i think that defender loaded launcher should be reactive. You should not have to activate it, it should just react to hostile missle launching on its own and use launcher's delay to control amount of missles it can launch. considering speed of the missles now, it will not knock off too many missles from volley anyway.
aka (Ohotnik) |
KillerLennart
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Posted - 2005.07.08 16:28:00 -
[37]
We need fast fireing gatlin anti missil defence.
should use tons o tons of small small ammo, doing 1 damage, whit a insainly ROF.
Say 1 damage, 0.025 Sec Rof, ammo should also be like 0.0025
And be cheap. It should take up a turret slot.
But the gatlin should only be able to hold like 2.5 cargo, or 1000 ammo.
And it should be auto targeting, so as soon as a missil was fired it should start spamming ammo at it, it should have REAL good tracking maby like 1.000. Should hit best at 2-5K but be able to hit all the way up to 20.000 but whit a lot more miss.
For missils u need something that gets the missils to follow and lose track of u like, "flares" that gets fired off as soon as u get locked, it would work real good vs small missils, but vs heavy cruise and torp, and bigger, the missils would hit to close giveing u abit of damage but not the bulk of it.
Just a few idears for the anti missils defences.
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MineallMine
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Posted - 2005.07.08 17:15:00 -
[38]
Defenders don't work close range anymore.
That is fine because if you are a close range frigate you are moving fast, if you ae a close range BS you should either have a very good tank.
If you are at range over 20km defenders still work. In some respects they work better. Before, if you were using a rocket launcher, you could get of two or three defenders for the same missle, now it is much closer to one to one.
Yes, you have to listen for the swoosh, or you can use the "look at" and see when they fire, but my BC still uses defenders effectively on missions post patch.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.07.08 18:12:00 -
[39]
won't the missle speed skill and range skill also increase speed and range of defenders?
they should.
and why are people even bringing torps into discussion of defenders use anyhow. torps took 3 defenders to destroy to begin with and never were ever intended to be used to defend against torps.
And i would suspect that missles moving faster with slow moving action of smart bombs would make smart bombs even more affective against the missles being it's more like your missle will fly through a smart bomb while it is doing it's affected area of damage.
And for those that mention flares.
if you can't get a defender off before impact..... what the heck makes ya think you'll get to fire a flare off before impact.
as far as being fired upon goes, no matter if passively locked or not.
I guess that suddenly flashing red icon in the overview might throw some people off a bit but ..... That means they are firing AT you.
Never mind the autolock feature programmed into all our ships for aggressions against us that is also instantly activated when someone does fire.
Comon people seriously.
Stay aware, fly with care, and for god sakes watch your overviews. that's why it's there.
Rocket launchers and the speed skill trained up with the defender skill trained up combined with rapid firing and your defenders should work wonderfully. it used to be assault launchers. now it's rockets.
yes defenders are still missles and now we need the supports skills to make them functional again.
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Soggy Gravy
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Posted - 2005.07.08 19:09:00 -
[40]
While I admit I am not nearly as competent with all the inner-workings of EVE yet I was thinking and wanted to get some input on this suggestion, maybe why it won't work or how to improve it etc...
I was thinking that when using a defender missile (perhaps make a seperate turret for defenders only) you activate the turret and like some other modules it creates a constant energy drain every x-milliseconds or seconds or whatever is reasonable for its rate of fire... It would have a longer rate of fire however and a large capacitor drainage when active so that it could only be put up sparingly but while active it would automatically launch onto any incoming missile targeted at you...
as other suggestions you could then make defender turrets that could protect OTHER ships a remote defender turret perhaps, or a defender drone whose sole purpose is to shoot down incoming missiles, everything could be tweaked of course for balance purposes
perhaps than create turrets that launch several missiles at once (a few of which are just dummy warheads) to counter these defender turrets *i believe similar real world devices do exist not sure though* and there you have actual tactical warfare going on. In real warfare most of the shots are countered or missed and really it comes down to getting those one or two hits for the win. Just like how so many MMORPG's are stupid with you taking 400 sword hits to the face when in actuality combat is a long series of blocks and parries and dodges with the first person to actually LAND a hit winning.
Merely a suggestion, I feel it wouldn't be too difficult to implement and I really like the direction it would take combat in.
As always your comments advice and suggestions are warmly welcomed, if you hate my suggestion feel free to say so but please suggest something else in exchange and/or why you dislike it not just ...oh i hate this.
Cheers from the gravy that sat in the bathtub too long.
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Tar Kovsky
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Posted - 2005.07.08 19:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Antic
NPC battleships in lvl 4 missions sure are effective enough with defenders to the degree that it makes using 6 cruise launchers against some of them impossible as cruise go down way to easy to defenders (and is a long distane weapon now.)
Well, duh! Everyone knows the computer cheats!
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Futher Bezluden
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Posted - 2005.07.08 19:40:00 -
[42]
Slight problem with defenders???? NS...
133km range for my defenders because they travel so damn fast, but anything that gets under 30km and the defenders are useless. They fire out 5km, shoot out 15-20km, then race back in at the missile that just slammed the hell out of my ship.
tone down the velocity..
2005.07.08 06:58:20 combat Havoc Heavy Missile I belonging to Angel Cartel
hits you, doing 405.0 damage.
This was during the L4 Duo of Death Mission. Corpie in a typhoon was put into structure by 4 HM batteries... WTF?! 
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.07.08 20:10:00 -
[43]
ok
Not sure, never fired a defender without having lock before so not sure if they fire if not having the target locked first. if lock is needed to fire them then that should be changed to something like FoF when your sensor locked.
make defenders part of the FoF class and make FoF lvl 3 a prereq for defenders.
Do that and boom someone fires and you, you aint gotta wait for your ship to lock anything to fire that defender and you can insto click the defender launcher and your in business.
just like FoF's
if you guys want an autofire feature from the launcher itself.
I want an auto drain your cap feature for constantly having it on autofire mode. Something like that should be on an activation cap use cycle setup.
Shouldn't have a free autofire feature for something like that without some sort of cap drain to keep your ships sensors scanning overtime for missle shots.
And no matter safe space or 00, one should always watch their overview and be aware of ships in range.
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TotensBurntCorpse
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Posted - 2005.07.08 20:22:00 -
[44]
Tried defenders on my kestral last nite in a level 2 rogue drone, to kill the second level drone.
Long and short the lite missles the drone fired hit me before i could cycle the defenders pretty much all of the time.
CCP please make the defenders an always on function, make em their own bay if u have to, pressing the function keys every time i see a missle is very tedius. auto repeat anyone ?
TotensBurntCorpse
Likes
EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty.
Dislikes
Not much. |
Hale Haleson
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Posted - 2005.07.08 20:39:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Feera
Or, simply allow missile launchers with Defenders fitted to be activated without a missile coming at you so that one does come at you it will auto-launch.
I've always thought this was a good idea.
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Pesht
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Posted - 2005.07.08 20:48:00 -
[46]
First people said missiles were overpowered cause they always hit for full damage. Now you got what you wanted, they're balanced, something I think they did indeed need.
However, now that isn't good enough? They already added 2 counters to them, but you want more. How about a special shield which stops all missiles? Or a special hacking module which stops you from even firing missiles at all. Where does it end?
Defenders do work, maybe not every time anymore, but you have speed, low sig, and smart bombs as a counter option ontop of defenders. People need to stop comparing missile counters to turret counters, namely tracking disruptors. Diversity is a good thing, all counters shouldn't be the same nor should they all be the same effectiveness.
Turret counters are better because turrets have a lot of advantages over missiles. The primary advantage is turrets hit instantly, so therefore they deserve a good counter. Missiles on the other hand take time to hit, even now after the patch, and therefore, no reason their counter should be as effective as turrets.
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Futher Bezluden
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Posted - 2005.07.08 23:59:00 -
[47]
How about defenders that don't zip out 5km, shoot off at an angle for another 10km, then race back in to try to hit the missile... oops, that just slammed your ship.
The m/sec on the defenders is too high for them to really be effective as evidenced by the number of people having issues with them.
Slow down the defenders a bit on the test server and see if they are any more effective than now, if not, then consider making either a "Defender/Countermeasure Bay" or making a high slot Laser Anti-Missile System.
Another real problem is the npc missile bonuses and multipliers, really think those should be looked at.
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Vulnar
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Posted - 2005.07.09 05:38:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Malacore
I really don't see why people see this as a nerf.
Because no matter what you do (short of T2 launchers, which is outside the scope of the discussion), there is no way to get missiles to do MORE damage than they did pre-patch. They do less damage base, less to equal damage skilled, and are much easier to counter (just have a MWD fitted - reduces damage by more than half). That is the very essence of a nerf. Whether or not it was needed, it's STILL a nerf.
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.09 05:44:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Vulnar
Originally by: Malacore
I really don't see why people see this as a nerf.
Because no matter what you do (short of T2 launchers, which is outside the scope of the discussion), there is no way to get missiles to do MORE damage than they did pre-patch. They do less damage base, less to equal damage skilled, and are much easier to counter (just have a MWD fitted - reduces damage by more than half). That is the very essence of a nerf. Whether or not it was needed, it's STILL a nerf.
Outright, intellegence-insulting lies make every debate a mockery of reason.
Go team.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.07.09 05:51:00 -
[50]
I say gave defenders the finger, it's a stupid idea in general terms now because missles are loads faster then they used to be. The faster the object, the harder it is to intercept.
Put in a mid-slot item that messes with missle explosion radius or whatever the equivilent would be to tracking.
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.09 05:58:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Meridius
I say gave defenders the finger, it's a stupid idea in general terms now because missles are loads faster then they used to be. The faster the object, the harder it is to intercept.
Put in a mid-slot item that messes with missle explosion radius or whatever the equivilent would be to tracking.
This idea is teh win.
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Pesht
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Posted - 2005.07.09 06:08:00 -
[52]
If you put in a mid slot counter for defenders, it should be targeted, because defenders right now have the advantage over tracking distruptors in that there is no counter to the counter, where as tracking disruptors, while more effective than defenders, can be countered with jamming or dampening.
Giving a module which reduces missile damage therefore should be targeted on a single ship, or else you give another uncounterable counter, but this time it effects all missiles coming at you, from any target, which is far above and beyond what a tracking disruptor can do, and depending on how good it reduces damage, could be very overpowered for that reason.
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.07.09 06:17:00 -
[53]
Great, no one listened to my ideas about the much needed defense against missiles before the patch, but look at all the whining now.
Give us flares, or flak turrets, or some kind of defense against the always-hit weapon, geez...Yes, make it a high-slot. We're not asking for uberness, goddammit, only a chance to sacrifice firepower for defense.
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Originally by: Dark Shikari
"One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.07.09 06:24:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Pesht
If you put in a mid slot counter for defenders, it should be targeted=
They would work like target disruptors so yeah it would require a target to disrupt.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.07.09 06:26:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Meridius on 09/07/2005 06:26:11
arg.
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duduk
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Posted - 2005.07.09 06:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tar Kovsky
Originally by: X'Alor
won't the missle speed skill and range skill also increase speed and range of defenders?
Of course. But no skill will enable me to press F8 any faster than before. Meanwhile, the missile I'm countering has traveled significantly further than it would have before the changes.
I think there should be a auto-firing skill for defenders. Give it a delay that's reduced by increased skill level. You'd be penalized for multiple launchers because they would all go off when the first missile fired -- but I don't see that as a bad thing.
any type of automated defense or offense is bad. it removes a very large portion of human error. 
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