I don't know about random statics but giving some existing wormholes duel statics would give people a reason to fight over systems.

Not that I dislike the idea, but removing the "warp to" requirement wouldn't stop safe farming. They'd just crit their holes.

Do you have anything specific in mind that makes you reluctant to be against the random statics?

The problem I always had with WH PVP was the fact it's virtually impossible to get a fight out of people that aren't online. WH inhabitants seem to never, ever, ever be online. I think this is an artifact of the timezone I fly in and the fact that all the content in a WH tends to be done before the later TZ people log in.

So, what I'd like to see is content that spreads itself out over the day. This would mean it's worthwhile for a EU TZ corp in a low class WH to have some AUS TZ people online. :)

-Liang

Ed: Yes, you can knock over a POS to force a if that's your thing. But that seems awfully heavy handed.

accept the static would be random so rolling a c1 in the hope that the next one would be a c6 to the system you are looking for would be a waste of time.

There are several examples of people who have overcome issues like this by jumping pods into the critical hole, followed up by a carrier full of small but effective ships such as t3's. That said, would it be inherently worse that instead of collapsing their connections, they'd change to critting them instead? Afterall, with the change we are looking for improvements, if none can be thought with the change, then the change is bad. I gave an example of a scenario that would be made possible with this, so naturally it would allow something that the current ways do not.

For better or worse, it would kill 'hardcoreness' of c5s and c6s, with regard to logistics. Need pos fuel? Roll static 2 till you get a hs. Invade someone? Roll static 2 all night bringing 3 caps at a time in all the lows and nulls you run across.

Instead of leaving the hole untouched, we'd crit it and leave a scout on it. Still untouchable; wouldn't fix the problem.


Svo.

As this seemed to have been buried in the other thread...

More unpredictability for wormholes is how you increase conflict....

That's pretty much an impossible thing for CCP to fix though. Some timezones will always be more quiet than others. Personally I play from 6AM EVE time to midnight, sometimes beyond. with those early hours being my prime simply because that's when I have my kids in school/daycare and have all the time in the world to play. Meaning I definitely get how the AU/EU time zone can be quiet, I suffer from it too. All we can do pretty much is hope that more people from our timezone move on to W-space.

I don't object to the fact that there's fewer people in my timezone. I'm objecting to the fact that by the time we log on there's literally no content at all in WH space. That's a design problem, not a player problem.

-Liang

Ed: That is to say, people will never move to WH space as long as all the content is completed for the day by the time they log in. I'm asking for the content to be delivered a bit more slowly and throughout the day.

I don't object to the fact that there's fewer people in my timezone. I'm objecting to the fact that by the time we log on there's literally no content at all in WH space. That's a design problem, not a player problem.

-Liang

Ed: That is to say, people will never move to WH space as long as all the content is completed for the day by the time they log in. I'm asking for the content to be delivered a bit more slowly and throughout the day.

Having some form of alliance bookmarks would also help.

So by content you mean siterunning. Why don't you simply roll your static connection and run the sites there? Either way, that's not really what this suggestion is about...

i don't know wtf you're talking about lil' kid

Are you saying that someone is coming into your wormhole everyday and running your sites before you get online?

Spies would rejoice if this ever happened.

Will you two clowns ******* pay attention here? My point is that content has frequently been burned through by folks in earlier TZs, and this provides a very substantial barrier to people from later TZs getting into WH space. No people = no conflict.

Or are we not trying to discuss ways to get more conflict in WH space?

-Liang

Instead of having hissyfits like a little kid, you might want to clarify what that content is that you keep running out of. All I could think of is sites as those are quite simply the only thing you can run out of and even that is fixed by rolling your static and doing it somewhere else. If you wish to continue like a kid or someone with PMS, please don't bother responding.

Maybe by "wormholes" he means high sec and by "content" he means asteroids...

Obviously. High sec is where I spend my days.



-Liang

Ed: Holy ****, I didn't realize you were such an amazing PVPer!! 367 kills and ranked 43000! How ever will I ever be able to relate to you!

Oh dear, someone just brought up rankings in here. *goes to get his fireproof suit*

I don't object to the fact that there's fewer people in my timezone. I'm objecting to the fact that by the time we log on there's literally no content at all in WH space. That's a design problem, not a player problem.

-Liang

Ed: That is to say, people will never move to WH space as long as all the content is completed for the day by the time they log in. I'm asking for the content to be delivered a bit more slowly and throughout the day.

Are you suggesting that sites are created at downtime, and by the time you log in (say 12 hours later) they have been run by other players, not to be created again until the next DT? If so, then you are confused about the mechanic. Sites spawn all day. If you understand how sig IDs are created, then that is fairly obvious. It's also obvious if you half pay attention to your own system while you are logged on (if you log on for more than 20 minutes a day).
If that is NOT what you are saying, then please clarify, because I have no idea what you mean by content (sites) being gone.

... This removes the methods used currently for safe farming, and as such automatically encourages more fights without changing the actual balance of the game one bit (ie. the holes would still be mass restricted just like they are now).

...

I think of it the other way, instead of having useless systems that give you absolutely no reason to be there, this might actually bring some more life into those. ...

A simple ideal would be to allow players to build a modified version of an outpost maybe say 25% the size of one and make it tied to some sort of SOV claim unit so if they lose SOV they lose there outpost but to be honest they're is a reason why WH conflict is not as happening and I think that logistically it's a pain to invade one and is more of a grief play to just peepee on someone then actually planning on taking over the WH.

Yeah, I considered not doing it for a moment. And then I remembered that some dumb ass was saying I was a high sec miner because I'd like to see more people logged in to shoot at.

-Liang

Are you saying that someone is coming into your wormhole everyday and running your sites before you get online?

No I was basically saying you were talking absolute bollocks.

How do you PVP people that aren't logged on?

-Liang

You simply scan more. If you are looking for ganks (which is sounds like you are), this is how it's done. Kairos has been doing it successfully for a while now, hence why we kill more in wh space than anyone else. Sometimes you even get a fun fight out of it, which makes it all the more rewarding.

In conclusion, be patient, scan more, and it's amazing what you find.

As an AU player myself i never had too much issue finding people to shoot. I think you are just not scanning enough.

http://stats.whkills.info/

Somehow I don't think you're cut for the wormhole life Liang. Our whole corp is regularily amongst the top killers in wormhole space. That said, do you still plan on trolling this thread for long? Because your complaints about not enough Ozzies playing has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.

Liang is clearly stuck in the wrong subforum... has the entrance closed behind you on your way in here?

http://stats.whkills.info/

Somehow I don't think you're cut for the wormhole life Liang. Our whole corp is regularily amongst the top killers in wormhole space. That said, do you still plan on trolling this thread for long? Because your complaints about not enough Ozzies playing has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.

No sticks up in anyone's arse here but yours it seems. You appear to be the one complaining the most about an area of the game you don't even live in anymore. Do us all a favor and just stop your trolling. The rest of us understand the realities of wormhole life and don't even bother with comments like your "noobs getting just 10 kills a day". It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. I'm betting that we get more quality PvP here than literally anyone in null or low sec. Even on the off chance that we don't (I admit it's possible), at least we don't have to deal with idiotic station games.

Your blog is aptly named, failing in so many ways...

Amusingly, I've been running a WH corp for 2.5 years. But hey, keep telling me that the only people allowed to poast in your glorious WH forum section is C5/C6 nublets that brag about an entire alliance getting < 500 kills/month.

-Liang

... it's quite simple. I'm aware of the way sites spawn and despawn, and that they immediately respawn (somewhere else) when completed. However, what actually happens is that holes that are lived in are frequently depleted quite early in the day and holes that nobody lives in (or has very quiet residents) become absolutely packed with sigs.

It's not that the 'clumping' of sites in unoccupied systems leaves you without sites to run. The claim is that this problem will be there for anyone from the AUS timezone. And whilst you don't need them to be plexing so you can gank them for your PvP, site running is the isk attraction for a lot of W-Space, so without it life is poorer for AUS players, making W-Space less attractive and leaving you - and everyone else - with no targets.

TL;DR (1) Liang may have a point. It wasn't what I first thought, could have been phrased better and is actually interesting. (2) OP focuses on making W-Space unfriendly to farmers. Perhaps another option is making is more friendly to roaming. But how to do this without breaking W-Space?

Ultimately I'm pretty sceptical that you could 'fix' these features of W-Space without ruining a great deal of what makes it different and exciting. (Why shouldn't there be a kind of space for the cloaky gankers?) So my only point is that I'm not convinced of the underlying assumption that a lack of 'conflict' comes from a low probability of encounters. Sorry I don't have something more constructive, but maybe someone else does.

TL;DR (1) Liang may have a point. It wasn't what I first thought, could have been phrased better and is actually interesting. (2) OP focuses on making W-Space unfriendly to farmers. Perhaps another option is making is more friendly to roaming. But how to do this without breaking W-Space?

The way I see it is that these changes would make it different and exciting. It would also help those people who run in more quiet time zones as like everyone has stated here, there aren't many people running in those hours. Increasing the odds of bumping into the ones, can not be anything but good.

If his point was that CCP should increase their marketing in Australia then yeah, he would of had a point but that wasn't what he was saying. Instead he made the moronic statement that "nobody in wormhole space logs on" What?

I really don't see how it'd be that big of a change to the current methods used to make safe farming conditions:

Crashing part would increase the required effort perhaps by 2-3 minutes, a complete non-issue. Anchoring bubbles is 1-2 minutes more (you don't have to sit there idle when they are already anchoring).

If they're 5 guys online in a C2 -> C4 with no Orca pilots then putting 2 holes crit with BS or smaller takes more than 3 minutes. How much extra work is really beside the point though. Any amount of additional work for anyone doing anything is stupid if it doesn't also have the effect of increasing the thing you want.

Seriously, I'm saying it as nicely as possible but in two replies you've completely ignored the main suggestion that the intrisic anti-roam properties of W-Space (definitely a feature not a bug) contribute much more to the absence of 'conflict' (of the kind you seem to be interested in) than the balance of PvE risk/reward (or whatever you're trying to effect by introducing more connections of whatever type).

The problem is that the WH playerbase is spread across 2500 WHs, MOST all in tiny corporations. Rather than group up into formidable larger groups that are more likely to roam and pvp we instead have hundreds if not a thousand+ of 1-20 man WH corps.

More connections will make W-space FEEL smaller, just like roads/railroads/airplanes make RL feel smaller.

Fixing POS issues will allow those tiny corporations to grow. When that 10-man corp that was afraid of your 75-man corp grows to 40, they might very well be willing to engage (not knowing for sure if you have 20 or 60 online to fight their 30 online).

I also wanted to come up with a method that doesn't change the balance of the game at all, not even by making some system worth more than the other.

I'm curious how you continue to make the claim that it doesn't change the balance of the game at all. That's patently false - it does change the balance of the game. It potentially increases interaction (provided everyone is in the same timezone) and makes it far easier for the C5/C6 guys to roll a 20-30 man T3 fleet into someone's C2 home.

I just don't see that being a good thing. You guys see the same people over and over because they're the only people that can realistically fight you regularly.

-Liang

Not really, it will increase the opportunity for cheap ganks that are hella boring but that's about it. If people are going to fight you they are going to fight you, if not they are just going to POS up and go play WoT or something.

The people posting on these forums about finding ways to make wormholes interesting or more fights are almost all universally from groups who have reputations for blowing "fights" out of the water with t3's balls and 3-1 odds. People see you in the chain and decide "nope nope nope nope". And roll you away with all haste, or if you do find them by a direct roll, they just sit in their towers and give you the boredom treatment until you go away. No one is going to intentionally jump on you when they know what it is you do all the time. You make it unfun to fight you and so no one wants to fight you.

What we have on our hands is a product purely of our own making. We have made this lovely little bed of ours now shut up and lay in it.

I specifically discounted timezones in that post, and still you QQ about it. Stop, and read the damn post.

-Liang

Perhaps that's because literally your every post reads like "look at me, I'm more experienced than all of you combined. I crusade for the little people and the people who don't even bother to log on", all without knowing facts.

Svodola, I do read this thread and continue commenting on it, which is evident if you simply read the thread instead of just skimming it. I don't see what you are describing as a problem with wormholes as such, but as a larger problem with the game itself. People are too scared to lose anything and forget what it's all about, having fun. To me that means fighting, whether winning or losing, it doesn't really even matter as like you said, even big losses can be recovered from very easily.

For a problem like that, there's very little that can be done by CCP in the game mechanics or elsewhere.

Perhaps that's because literally your every post reads like "look at me, I'm more experienced than all of you combined. I crusade for the little people and the people who don't even bother to log on", all without knowing facts.

Svodola, I do read this thread and continue commenting on it, which is evident if you simply read the thread instead of just skimming it. I don't see what you are describing as a problem with wormholes as such, but as a larger problem with the game itself. People are too scared to lose anything and forget what it's all about, having fun. To me that means fighting, whether winning or losing, it doesn't really even matter as like you said, even big losses can be recovered from very easily.

For a problem like that, there's very little that can be done by CCP in the game mechanics or elsewhere.

Once you start talking about throwing T3 blobs and capitals around, you've left the realm of anything that's reasonably experienced in low class wormholes. The interactions between C1-C3 and C5-C6 are just flat different. It's almost like they're not even the same kind of space - and in a very real sense that's true.

Again, I'm all for increasing good interaction but I'd be hard pressed to say a C2 connected to a C6 is a good interaction for anyone but the marauding C6 gank party. What would you say to splitting your idea into two classes of WHs: C1-C3 roving statics and C4-C6 roving statics?

-Liang

Ed: Also, a C2 with statics pointing at low sec / null sec / C2 would probably be my favorite WH ever.

I just want to be clear: you mention in the OP that we wouldn't have to scan these down. Are you referring to that in the sense that I don't scan down incoming statics (good) or that it's a WH that appears on the overview like a gate (bad)?

-Liang

Not really, it will increase the opportunity for cheap ganks that are hella boring but that's about it. If people are going to fight you they are going to fight you, if not they are just going to POS up and go play WoT or something.

The people posting on these forums about finding ways to make wormholes interesting or more fights are almost all universally from groups who have reputations for blowing "fights" out of the water with t3's balls and 3-1 odds. People see you in the chain and decide "nope nope nope nope". And roll you away with all haste, or if you do find them by a direct roll, they just sit in their towers and give you the boredom treatment until you go away. No one is going to intentionally jump on you when they know what it is you do all the time. You make it unfun to fight you and so no one wants to fight you.

What we have on our hands is a product purely of our own making. We have made this lovely little bed of ours now shut up and lay in it.

As this seemed to have been buried in the other thread...

More unpredictability for wormholes is how you increase conflict, for example by adding a completely random second static to each wormhole (by this I mean the connection can change between high sec, low sec, null sec and all classes of wormholes and once it collapses, it would be randomized again) and by removing the requirement to scan down your new static before it's visible on the other side. This removes the methods used currently for safe farming, and as such automatically encourages more fights without changing the actual balance of the game one bit (ie. the holes would still be mass restricted just like they are now).

By increasing the amount of connections, you increase the chances of encounters with actual players, thus naturally increasing PvP without changing game balance or introducing any new mechanics. By making those connections more unpredictable you remove the other problem that just about all active wormhole corporations have, which is running into the same groups all the time. While accomplishing both of those, this would also bring some more danger into site running by making it more difficult to create safe conditions for doing so. Obviously you could still reduce the mass to critical and bubble up every time you start your daily farming, but I really don't see any real drawbacks in making these proposed changes.

And no, I don't consider the troubles of farmers to be a drawback in the least. Nor do I consider it a drawback that this would make C4 holes less secluded.

Don't be stupid, please. Everybody who lives in a WH does some kind of WH "farming" even your corp. If it gets to the point where people cant make any ISK in WH's they will move out, decreasing WH population and having the exact opposite effect that you claim to desire. If people have too many incoming connections or cannot secure their WH for their chosen ISK making time (especially the small WH corps) they will stop mining, stop running sites, run out of money to build ships, get bored, and eventually move out. And lets get one thing straight for everybody, killing mining ships, scanners, PvE fit ships, and transports isn't PvP, its ganking. Yea I do it like everybody else but lets call it what it is and it is certainly not a challenge. So, your proposals would 1. Increase ganks (hats off to your mad PvP skills) 2. Decrease WH population most likely. What will be your fix when you have to whine about even less people to gank or fight than you have now?

Reading comprehension, sometimes it might be good to have some.

Nothing that is proposed in this thread by anyone would prevent farming one bit, all it would do is make it harder to shutdown your entire system via the collapsing of your statics. If you can't work around a simple issue like that, perhaps you really need to reconsider the life in wormholes yourself. The way I see things is that in wormholes it shouldn't ever be possible to make it secure for yourself. As it is right now, it is ridiculously easy.

WHs are good as they are right now.

More statics or even K162's would drive smaller corporations back in to hi sec, like the sir above described. Often WHs are considered just like a base, a small part of this huge universe that you can call "home".

We all know that there is always a bigger fish arround, no need to turn our belowed Whs in to a highway. There is always a possibility that a k162 spawns, so talking about how secure it is or "locked down" isn't correct.

There's no need to play up how insecure WHs are here. We've all been around the block and know how tight you can lock them down with the static crashing technique. Yeah you might get an inbound but it's relatively rare, very easy to detect, and very easy to fix.

-Liang

Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.

Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.

Of course the rest of us cannot even begin to fathom the incredible stress that comes with those two occasions a day that you might have more than 0 risk to go about your business...

This is exactly what I mean in the OP, wormholes can be made way too safe way too easily. Next you'll probably be complaining about them afk cloakies, right?

Please do enlighten us uninformed on your definintion of relatively rare. Does that mean one a week, one a day, one an hour, or in the case of some WH's like mine no less than two a day. Of course ive no doubt that you have done extensive studies of this across all WH's in the game, otherwise you would just be another talking head who applies what happens into their WH to all WH's.

[

This +100, tired of reading all this crap about increasing conflict. If you think WH's have become stagnant it is because you and your mega-corp have made it boring for yourselves. Go drop a stick in a low end WH and live their by yourself with just a couple of alts instead of a T3 blob or Cap fleet. If life is still boring then just f***ing leave WH life. Quit trying to make changes that will screw things up for the people who are happy with current WH life. And NO i am not purely a WH farmer before you start flaming, i run my sites, roll my statics and hunt/harass other corps in their WH's, and shoot at damn near everything that enters my WH. But, yes when you come into my WH with 35 ships im gonna sit at my dickstar and give you the finger.

I'd say it depends on the class you're in. C2s are hardish to lock up and you'll have to close a new incoming static every couple of days, but C3s and C4s are eminently easy and you can go weeks without an intrusion. I have no experience in C5/C6 and would never intentionally comment on them. :)

-Liang

Ed: It is a small lie to say I have no experience in C5s. I have less than a month worth of experience in C5 and C4 each. Both of those were somewhat unpleasant.

This is a pretty dead on post imho.

Not sure what C3 you lived in, but during my time in a C3 I was tempted to put up a virtual stoplight to control traffic. Given that C3's are probably the most popular farming static I'd say we have at least one incoming k162 5 times a week on average. Maybe daily if you consider the days where we had more than one.

I'd say C1 and C4 are the quietest. C2's are quite busy, probaby due to the popularity of C2's in general, so they are fairly well populated. Dunno on C5+ as I haven't ventured that high yet.

How weird. We occupied J110706 for quite a while and we virtually never saw incoming statics - seriously maybe once a month? We were there for the low sec static though, so that was fine with us. We only left that system because I got banned from Eve and most of my friends ultimately quit.

I was eventually unbanned and we moved into a series of C2s (low sec/C2 statics) to gain access to the same low sec pew pew with a side of C2 superhighway. The C2s never really had the same distribution of acceptable low sec exits so most of the corp has bounced back into Heretic Army or quit Eve again. I'm still idling C2s but it's a solo affair for me now.

-Liang

Ed: For what it's worth, I'm near 100% convinced that statics pointing to k-space are tied to specific constellations. The last C2 we occupied (as a group) had a super high affinity for like 3 constellations in Genesis, Aridia, and Solitude. Needless to say, that made for a ****** low sec pirate experience.

There's no need to play up how insecure WHs are here. We've all been around the block and know how tight you can lock them down with the static crashing technique. Yeah you might get an inbound but it's relatively rare, very easy to detect, and very easy to fix.

-Liang

:)
I am not talking about random K162s spawning once per week, iam talking about intentional chain collapsing by a big fleet, just as we do on the weekends you know.
Roll the static so long during the weekends that you find something to pew. It takes only a few minutes to drop a fleet on someone and who of us has a core probe out 24/7 scanning every minute for new sigs?

I support the idea of a second random static. To be completely honest I think there would be way more pvp in W-Space if all wormholes had a highsec static, but that's another discussion altogether.

I've said this in our own forums, but I can say it here as well. I think W-Space pvp would have been way more interesting if we couldn't move in or build Carriers and Dreads in W-Space. Probably not a popular idea with most of you guys, and there are obvious pains related to POS'es and structure grind here, but still...one can dream.

Another idea I would find interesting would be if wormhole connections simply "appeared" as a warpable object in my overview, without the need of scanning them down. I wouldn't change any other mechanic (mass restrictions, the need to scan down pve sites, timers etc). It would be incredible interesting to just roll the static, and go out into the great unknown on a roam. Again...one can dream =)

I've said this in our own forums, but I can say it here as well. I think W-Space pvp would have been way more interesting if we couldn't move in or build Carriers and Dreads in W-Space. Probably not a popular idea with most of you guys, and there are obvious pains related to POS'es and structure grind here, but still...one can dream.

IMHO the best way to bring more conflict is to increase population and traffic in wspace. That means making wspace more "habitable" for newcomers. Solving roles/POS ship security would help a lot and allow many smaller corps grow and bring more people. Having some form of alliance bookmarks would also help.