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Ohne
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:11:00 -
[1]
Why is this class even in the game? It cant even use a covert op cloak, cant uncloak and attack immietly, is as weak as a normal frig and has no real dmg output ?
As far as im concerned a destroyer or a assault frig equipped with a Cloaking Device is more useful? 
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Ohne
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:16:00 -
[2]
Also from the Desctription of the Hound "-Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked" . but due to the fact that it cannot use a covert op cloak though its titled as one.. the speed is reduced 75% to 90% :/
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:17:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ohne
Why is this class even in the game?
New content.
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Ohne
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:20:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Ohne
Why is this class even in the game?
New content.
Well i dont see the purpose of it though..
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:24:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ohne
Well i dont see the purpose of it though..
Its shiny. It was put into the game during a lull in new ship implementation to shut people up.
They are horribly designed, utterly non-sensical abortions of design. They need to be entirely rethought and redesigned.
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:25:00 -
[6]
There's been more than enough threads on this topic. Technically bombers are supposed to be used for quick surprise raids, possibly on industrials and the like. It is a very good concept, however, alot of people agree that the ship's statistics are not good enough for such a use, as there are things to consider, like recalibration time after uncloaking, and the fact that most industrials or what not either have escorts or instajumps. It isn't a matter of "finding a use" for them as much as it is that they are underpowered for any use.
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Seiryu
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Posted - 2005.07.11 05:56:00 -
[7]
There was one tactic that I know of that gave stealth bombers a use but that was nerfed in the last patch. The idea was to come in unlcoaked, fire, cloak, move, uncloak and use ew to prevent a lock, then fire again. Now, however, you have to wait untill all you missles hit before you can cloak so now you can't do that. Bad idea to nerf something that people complain about how useless it is in hundreds of threads.
----True bravery is not lacking fear, but confronting it.----
"Name: Seiryu
Score: 52
Status: textbook example
Judge notes: Time is never on our side. "
-Kaleigh Doyle- |
Alazais
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Posted - 2005.07.11 07:01:00 -
[8]
Alone these frigates really do kind of suck, but in small frigate gangs they supplement the damage quite nicely, i even managed to take a crow to structure post patch with 2 missiles fired from one of them. I Do however think they really should get a tech II resistence rather then the pathetic hp and defence they have.
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2005.07.11 07:22:00 -
[9]
Assault frigs do 2-4 times the damage of a bomber, sure they don't have an 80k range, but what does that matter?
With all the missile skills at 5, you might be able to catch a sleeping inty pilot. Anything bigger then a cruiser can simply tank you.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.07.11 08:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Boonaki
Anything bigger then a cruiser can simply tank you.
Therein lies the problem. Anything bigger than a cruiser can tank you. Anything smaller than a cruiser, your missiles will hit for crap and they can tank you.
So unless you run a bunch of target painters on something smaller than a battleship, this ship will not be able to effectively kill anything at all. Sitting 50km away from a stargate triple-painting a hauler and lobbing twocruise missiles will be good for catching haulers and cruisers that are not using instas.
Quite simply, this ship is meant as a group ship, not a solo battleship-killer or somethng equally ridiculous for a frigate. After all, it IS just a frigate. If you get about three stealth bombers with two cruise launchers and a cloaking device each, they can sit at a gate and with a frigate's locking time and two target painters each, anyone who comes through is pretty much instantly dead. That's six cruise missile launchers, six target painters and perhaps a scrambler or two onto one target. With the lock time of a frigate before they can fire and the new missile changes, that would be absolutely devestating.
It's not useful to complain that a ship class is pointless. It's useful to look at its strengths and weaknesses and find a point for its existance - something useful it can do that nothing else can. If the damage of the cruise launchers sucks now, try it with six T2 target painters on a target. THEN come back and tell me it sucks ^^.
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Seramis
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Posted - 2005.07.11 08:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ohne
Also from the Desctription of the Hound "-Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked" . but due to the fact that it cannot use a covert op cloak though its titled as one.. the speed is reduced 75% to 90% :/
Bombers have a speed bonus when cloaked. So with an Improved Cloaking II they really fly faster when cloaked (didn't try it with Prototype).
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.07.11 16:27:00 -
[12]
Since the cloaking part is really immaterial they have no use. If you are in a group of ships your better using a Destroyer against frigates, and any t2 frigate should have higher DOT IIRC.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Fuazzole
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Posted - 2005.07.11 16:38:00 -
[13]
no other frig can hit for 1000 damage(unresisted) at 100km+ every 13 seconds
yet to find a purpose to this damage at BS range,....they just warp away, a waste of sec hits
it's not strickly a war ship
so 2 scan probe launchers, cargo scanner, ship scanner wont go amiss,......
when tanked it can handle a 4/10 excluding the BS, the high sig radius welcomes all large hybrid
im not one for comparing to real life,.....but are not today's real stealth crafts all about having Extreemly low signature radius to radar?
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.07.11 16:59:00 -
[14]
maybe they should be only ship capable of fitting 'cloak detection device'. that would make them useful in number of roles.
the dot of these ships IS horrible, but they do a lot more damage a lot faster then they DID do pre-patch... with a tweak to the frig bonus (reduce the pg a little more) and perhaps a more useful bonus on the covert ops skill (the speed thing should maybe just be built in ffs - or a special stealth bomber only cloak introduce).
anyhow - they have a little more potential now... just haven't been creative enough to find something solo to do with the thing (which of course may be the point).
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.07.11 17:03:00 -
[15]
seems like the main use for them would be to solo but there is a host of other ships that are as good or better. In a pack they have the potential to rip stuff up. Though I'd rather have a pack of ceptors and assaults.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.07.11 17:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Boonaki
Anything bigger then a cruiser can simply tank you.
Therein lies the problem. Anything bigger than a cruiser can tank you. Anything smaller than a cruiser, your missiles will hit for crap and they can tank you.
So unless you run a bunch of target painters on something smaller than a battleship, this ship will not be able to effectively kill anything at all. Sitting 50km away from a stargate triple-painting a hauler and lobbing twocruise missiles will be good for catching haulers and cruisers that are not using instas.
Quite simply, this ship is meant as a group ship, not a solo battleship-killer or somethng equally ridiculous for a frigate. After all, it IS just a frigate. If you get about three stealth bombers with two cruise launchers and a cloaking device each, they can sit at a gate and with a frigate's locking time and two target painters each, anyone who comes through is pretty much instantly dead. That's six cruise missile launchers, six target painters and perhaps a scrambler or two onto one target. With the lock time of a frigate before they can fire and the new missile changes, that would be absolutely devestating.
It's not useful to complain that a ship class is pointless. It's useful to look at its strengths and weaknesses and find a point for its existance - something useful it can do that nothing else can. If the damage of the cruise launchers sucks now, try it with six T2 target painters on a target. THEN come back and tell me it sucks ^^.
There is nothing this ship or a group of these ships can do that cant be done better by the same number of cheaper ships. (except lob cruise from a distance = target warp away)
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.07.11 17:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: slip66
seems like the main use for them would be to solo but there is a host of other ships that are as good or better. In a pack they have the potential to rip stuff up. Though I'd rather have a pack of ceptors and assaults.
agreed...
have been working on a small fast strike team concept that utilize one of these... don't actually think a pack of them would be as useful as having 1 do provide a significant burst of damage every so often...
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iug8iouno l
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Posted - 2005.07.12 07:08:00 -
[18]
so far its goof for npc cruiser killing and does more damage tahn bs on frig and cruisers.. also its good fun on miner hunting :) avg 300+ damage per hit on npc frig and cruiser is 200+ to 366 damage
i am happy with the ship
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.12 08:23:00 -
[19]
In my opinion, all Stealth Bombers need is their own cloaking module the same way Covert Ops have theirs.
It wouldn't let Stealth Bombers warp cloaked (which, IMO, would be a bit overpowering) but instead would have a faster recloaking time, as well as sensor recalibration times approaching that of Covert Ops.
This would make them much more effective in a hit-and-run guerilla warfare role.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2005.07.12 10:08:00 -
[20]
Bottom line isą (and just about everyone has said it :P )
Other ships can do the same if not better
Other ships cost cheaper and can do other stuff effectively such as EW and kill other frigs etcą
The cost and the fact that other ships can do things same if not better is the problemą if this ship had something special AND if it was at least same price as some of ōthe otherö ships then it would be used in battles, but why spend so much when you can put that money and skill points some other place? Why would you go in a frig to attack bigger targets yet be completely vulnerable to targets that are your size? Without having something that those ships donĘt haveą
There a waste thatĘs all, and until something changes they will stay that way.
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Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.07.12 11:19:00 -
[21]
bombers need to launch big mofo sob BOMBS... what would their use be? how about CHAOS on any fleet?
i already explained my idea on another thread but it seems it has disapeared, even though it was only like 1 or 4 days ago.
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Ashkata Ichnopa
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Posted - 2005.07.12 18:24:00 -
[22]
My feelings on the cloaking in general are this: I am willing to suffer massive penalties to whatever in order stay cloaked without detection. This is the essential aspect of Covert Ops that makes it indispensible to commanders. With this in mind, how do you balance stealth bombers without hurting the ability of covert ops.
Bombers are difficult to combat when they are using hit and run tactics. I venture to say there is very little someone could do against a skilled bomber that is deft enough to decloak in a position that it is too difficult to counter them. So basically the issue isn't could they be countered but that the risk/benefit ratio is too far to the latter.
At this point I think CCP is reassessing the role of bombers and instead of nerfing cloak which would severely hinder covert ops, they made bombers pretty much a novelty for the time being. It's a very difficult thing to balance. Designing cloak destabilization technology around combatting bombers would potentially make covert ops useless.
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Dreck Morrison
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Posted - 2005.07.12 19:03:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Dreck Morrison on 12/07/2005 19:03:43
The real benefit of these ships is when someone says "I see him on scanner he is in a hound". And everyone else on TS goes "WTF is that?"
Generally the mass confusion caused to the other side is their OMGBBQPWNAGE.
Dreck  |
Mujun Kross
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Posted - 2005.07.12 20:32:00 -
[24]
My manticore bomber is setup in such a way that I can take out any frigate, or destroyer for that matter, if they are stupid enough to stay around. The 3 launchers do nice damage when you are throwing out 3 different damage types (i usually mount up therm, kin and exp). And against a single frigate I can all but assure you that I wont take enough hits to get through my shields.
The one big preceived problem with the bombers is that they cant take out a target with one volley. granted the initial description made it sound like these things launched some sort of special "bomb" that did an ass load of damage but the reality is this is just not true.
The one real problem with these ships is they cost too damn much for what they can do. Once the price comes down on these things it will be much easier to use them for what can be used for...gang support in a frigate/destroyer fleet.
I could see a pack of these things takeing out a bs eventually but its the same issue as the frigate above...if they are stupid enough to hang around they deserve to die.
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"Come now, my child, if we were planning to harm you, do you think we'd be lurking here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?"
-Kenneth Patchen "But Even So" |
JoCool
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Posted - 2005.07.12 21:05:00 -
[25]
In my opinion their powergrid bonus should get changed to Torpedos. They should be made a bit faster than they are now. This way they cannot hurt frigates or cruisers at all, but can be dangerous to single battleships in packs.
Much like the Bombers in Homeworld 1 + 2. They were perfectly balanced.
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Fuazzole
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Fuazzole on 12/07/2005 22:15:58
stealth?,....is it a recon/scout ship
Bomber,...thier we go, its a carpet bombing massacarist "war" ship
Bombers are not in a good place right now
and with the rizing cost of cruise launchers....
the manticore has initially +35% to damage with just cruise 2, covert-1
+33% on top of that over the other 3 bombers
thier need's to be a change
put some sort of equilibrium between the race's
remove gun bonus,....cant fit guns any way, with new offline module nerf
sensor recalibration bonus...a big 1 too
this would not be to over powered as at 100km at would still give the target plenty of time to react, and at close range can't kill a frig in 1 volley
swap the cruise for torps?
decrease the sig radius to a more "stealthy" radius
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ZelRox
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Posted - 2005.07.13 07:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Boonaki
Assault frigs do 2-4 times the damage of a bomber, sure they don't have an 80k range, but what does that matter?
With all the missile skills at 5, you might be able to catch a sleeping inty pilot. Anything bigger then a cruiser can simply tank you.
Harpy does pretty consistant dmg from 60km. I love the ship :)
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I wanna tuc tuc .. |
keepiru
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Posted - 2005.07.13 07:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Boonaki
Anything bigger then a cruiser can simply tank you.
Therein lies the problem. Anything bigger than a cruiser can tank you. Anything smaller than a cruiser, your missiles will hit for crap and they can tank you. *snippeteh*
IIRC they now get a missile explosion bonus. Cruise shot from 1 have a base explos radius of 50, meaning its like shooting 300hp light missiles.
That doesent change the fact that my celestis in npc setup can tank one of them indefinitely - and its a shield tank.
So ummm... bah. Paperweights?
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.13 07:53:00 -
[29]
Perhaps when I get enough money I'll buy one to put a spoiler and some spinnarz on, and fly around goin "OMG LOOK! I'm in a stealth bomber!" and then carefully dock it back in the station.
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.07.13 08:53:00 -
[30]
perhaps a 11% decrease in recalibration time per cov ops level and the facility to fit cov ops cloak.
The argument about 'the point' of classic cov ops ships is moot - they're probers.
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