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Hardin
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Posted - 2003.07.14 18:56:00 -
[1]
Peeps I have been having a debate with a corp member...
He believes that the time invested in taking ur learning & attribute skills to level 5 is not worth the time that u save learning other skills...Hes says no point training em beyond level 4!
Is he right?
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Kalast Raven
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:14:00 -
[2]
reference this thread for additional inof on this topic.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=10530
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K. Raven
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:16:00 -
[3]
NO need to train ANY skill to lv5 unless it's pre-requirement.
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 14/07/2003 19:27:33
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Aras
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:20:00 -
[4]
Look at it like this: that final level is another 2% better training time. We'll only talk about the "learning skill"
2% of 1 hour is 1.2 minutes
2% of 1 day is 28.8 minutes
2% of 1 week is 201.6 minutes or 3.36 hours
Now, we'll say that it takes about 10 days give or take to train a skill from 0 to 5. (More for higher ranked skills, but for arguments sake we just say 10 days)
With that in mind you'll save about 288 minutes or 4.8 hours. If you train over 100 skills (there are more than 100 skills in the game.) you'll end up saving 480 hours or 20 days.
And this is just "learning skill" from lvl 4 to lvl 5 and not including the bonuses from advancing the 5 other learning skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5.
Basic math say... Yes IMHO it worth every minute of training time to take your skills to lvl 5.
Suggestion, if you don't want to train to lvl 5 all of your learning skill.. train the ones that are required for the skills that you focus on, at a minimum.
Just my take on it..
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:27:00 -
[5]
aras, Did you realize your math miss 1 thing: how long it will save you 20 days? lol, that's several years......
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.07.14 21:58:00 -
[6]
On the Learning skill itself, the answer is easy: it's not worth it unless you're planning VERY long-term. It takes a full YEAR to just recoup the time you spend training it. So if you expect to be playing the same character a year from now you might get SOME benefit out of it, but even in TWO years you've only saved a few days training time.
For the stat boosters, it's harder to say. The lower your stat, the bigger training boost you get from raising it. Personally, I train to 5 if my stat is not over 10, 4 if it is over 10, and 1 if it's Charisma. :)
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.15 07:11:00 -
[7]
I guess y'all haven't heard of the Advanced skills yet.
Prerequisite: lvl5 in the base skill
(Think Drone Interfacing to get an idea what they do)
No idea when they'll be in, but you have plenty of time to get all your skills up to level 5.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.15 09:18:00 -
[8]
When there IS some advanced skills need learning to lv5, THEN train it......
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Hardin
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Posted - 2003.07.15 10:40:00 -
[9]
Well if you are going train it up to level 5 at some point or other you may as well do it now and start getting the benefit immediately!
I do intend to be a 'long-term' player so have no problem training it up.
However my original question was not just about the learning skills...but also about the 'attribute' skills.
Can anyone tell me roughly how much time (or percentage of time) you save by increasing your attributes.
Take this example (and I apologise for any errors in advance as I am at work and not online in EVE atm to double check)
ATM I have Drones skill level 4 and Mining Drones skill level 4. I am thinking about training them up to 5 each.
Now the key attributes for the Drones skills are Intelligence or Memory (I think) and Perception.
If prior to my taining of future drones skills I train my perception by 1 skill level roughly how much time (percentage of time) would I then save on training the drone skill where Perception is one of its two attributes? (can't remember if it is the primary or secondary attribute).
How much difference is there anyway between the impact of the primary and secondary attribute on the training of a particular skill?
Sorry if this sounds confused...
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.15 10:48:00 -
[10]
Training some of the Attribute skills up to level 5 is an advantage, based upon your current attributes.
With the basic Formula:
Primary + (Secondary/2) = Skill points per minute
You can get an idea of the benefit. There isnÆt a fixed ratio or time saver factor, but if you use the formula you can get an idea if it will help your situation.
I am in a situation where going from level 4 to level 5 on spatial awareness will save me just under 10% for all piloting skills.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:03:00 -
[11]
Thx - so it definitely seems that training ur attributes up will make a big difference to learning times...
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:16:00 -
[12]
I ahve been using a new character for this week, and i can confirm that training your abilities all above 10, before going fo the other skills makes an incredible difference, im training most skills 10-20% fast than my first character did. The learning 2% skill is only worth training to level 5 if you plan on playing the game for 14 months after you reach level 5.
I would recommend every get their attributes trained to level 4, and try to balance your char in creation so that they are all about 12 ish, unless of course you want to be able to specialise, i.e weapons, then train perception higher etc
Mercenary | The Azath |
Reklaw
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:46:00 -
[13]
i just want to say that i have learning lvl 5 alraedy and with all the others at lvl 3 it does make some difference to training times but the bonuses it gives dont kick in until you start training your other skills to lvl 4 and above before that theres not much difference as far as i can see but again i would say its worth doing if youre planning on playing long term
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Skinnerer
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Posted - 2003.07.15 15:23:00 -
[14]
"When there IS some advanced skills need learning to lv5, THEN train it...... "
Why not train them now and save time from now, instead of leaving it until you only start saving time later?
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.15 15:59:00 -
[15]
Learning at L5 will reduce training time by 1.8% over that at L4 by my calculations. This is independent of what your attributes are, or what skill you are training. Therefore, if you take the time it took to train learning to L5 and multiply by 55, that is the "break-even" point, the point at which you will have saved as much time as it took to train Learning.
For the attribute skills, there is no way to just boil it down to one number. For me, raising analytical mind from L4 to L5 would have a 3.9% effect, break-even multiplier of 25.5x (but only where Int is the primary skill, mind you). Training Instant Recall to L5 would have a 4.4% effect, break even at 22.5x.
The lower your attribute, the greater the effect and the less time it takes to break even.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.15 16:05:00 -
[16]
Won't start now because there's no confirmed information about "advanced learning skills" which require lv5 learning......
And if there's no such thing, you just waste your time in several years...
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Aras
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:25:00 -
[17]
Once again, most ppl fail to see the picture as a whole. My previous calculations are a base set. You need to take into consideration that some skill are going to have very high ranks.
Rank 12 skills will take days to train to lvl 1, So don't base all your decisions of the example I gave in the previous post.. That was just so you could see how they save more time than it takes to learn the skill set.
in reality it will save you months or longer in long run.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Aras
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:35:00 -
[18]
the formula is actuall
(Skill Points you need to get * rank of skill) /(Primary Attr + 0.5 * Secondary Attr)
So if you are training a rank 2 skill it would be like this.
some skill rank[2] 15000/45000, you would need 30000 skill points so the formula would be
(30000 * 2) / (10 + .5 * 10) assuming you have 10 attri point in the primary and secondary skills which is
60000/15 or 4000 minutes not counting the learning skill
so the same situation if you had primary skill boosted to lvl 5 would be:
60000/20 or 3000 minutes.
As I said before.. do the math.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:36:00 -
[19]
I've said this before in other threads, but it's worthwhile saying here again. While I am of the opinion that from a time-utilation point of view there isn't much benefit to training any skill to L5 unless it is a prerequisite, I don't use this as my sole basis of judgment. I haven't trained learning to L5, but I have trained 5 skills to L5, only one of which was a requirement (refining). I may not be doing "full" roleplaying here, but I do have a character concept that I am working towards, and I will not try to argue anyone out of training to L5 in a skill.
In fact, I've trained Research 5, and that is one of the most useless skills I have. But I envision myself as a scientist, so I did it.
But as for the rank issue, it does not matter in the calculation for learning whether you are training rank 1 skills or rank 12. The break-even analysis is independent of the skills being trained.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.19 22:29:00 -
[20]
aras, no matter how high the rank is, it's just simply matter of time, and train learning from lv4 to lv5 won't save you any time within 1-2 years
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.20 00:40:00 -
[21]
Discorp.......""I guess y'all haven't heard of the Advanced skills yet.""
<--- Looks into crystal ball. Nothing.
Your right I havn't heard of these advanced skills. Oh wait at the end of beta we did see some skills not in the game ( jove ships rank 12 and I think one lvl 8) but higher attribute skills? Nope nothin there.
No prerequisits for higher attribute skills = no brainer to train lvl 5.
Now if your talking about the skills that are in the game (not what this post was about in the first place) that require a prequisit such as drone interfacing etc, cruise missles etc. thats different.
If your talking about future skills that are supposedly coming *COUGH* please disclose your source of info or kindly keep the smart ass fanboi one liners to a minimum.
*thanks*
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Skek
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Posted - 2003.07.20 04:46:00 -
[22]
Long term you're probably best taking learning plus stats to the max early in a characters development as they'll affect every single thing to come.
Realistically though I took learning plus stats to lvl 4 which was enough to give learning time a good decrease without tying myself up for weeks.
However... If i'm away for the weekend I do set these learning skills to train, so i do plan on eventually having them all at lvl 5.
I find that this is the best compromise. Train em when you can, but don't make it a big priority past lvl 4, as that has the biggest benefit to time spent ratio.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:42:00 -
[23]
Nono
<<If your talking about future skills that are supposedly coming *COUGH* please disclose your source of info or kindly keep the smart ass fanboi one liners to a minimum.>>
Take a peek on Chaos, bub.
<edit>
and from the http://vnboards.ign.com/Vn boards[/ur] in http://vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=22281 this thread[url] comes the quote:
Hrafnkell S. Ëskarsson: "New skills will be introduced when new tech levels arrive. The next tech level (tech level 2) will be introduced in a month or two
:)
Edited by: Discorporation on 20/07/2003 11:51:33
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.20 12:57:00 -
[24]
Just a few numbers:
Learning Lvl5 - learning saves you effeciently 1.82% per level. To bring it from lvl4 to lvl5 costs you 210k skill points.
So, in order to actually reap the benefits from lvl5 learning you will need to train 210k * (100/1.82) -> 11.5 MILLION skill points.
It's slightly better with the attribute skills, there it varies from 2 to 5 Million points - but those are only in skills which have that attribute as primary.
So, basically, if you train learning skills to lvl5 you will reap the benefits realy realy realy late in the game, and have by then only a very small increase.
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.21 06:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ansuul on 21/07/2003 20:55:16
 Quote:
Take a peek on Chaos, bub.
I just did and didn't see a single skill on the market (even without supply) on Chaos that isn't on the market on Tranquility. And at least in the Forge, even the 3 listed but unavailable science skills still have no supply.
So, could you be more specific as to what you were referring to?
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.21 07:16:00 -
[26]
Ask around, I'm not going to spoil all the fun for you.
<edit>
It might help to ask a Gm or superchar.
Edited by: Discorporation on 21/07/2003 07:18:56
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Bon3s
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Posted - 2003.07.21 11:50:00 -
[27]
Check out the learningskill timer.
http://www.eve-i.com/skilltimer.php
Edited by: Bon3s on 21/07/2003 11:51:51
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Zachary Sikorsky
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Posted - 2003.07.21 22:11:00 -
[28]
or simply drop by at the TTI-nexus. advanced learning skills are already in the code, just waiting to be found or rather released.
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Dan Forever
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Posted - 2003.07.22 12:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dan Forever on 22/07/2003 12:01:32
guys!
The formula for the number of skill points learnt every minute is:
( P + S/2 )*( 1 + 0.02 * L )
P = Primary Attribute
S = Secondary Attribute
L = Learning Skill Level
Then to find out how long it will take to learn a level, take the number of skill points you need and divide by your answer to get the time in minutes
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.07.22 12:42:00 -
[30]
To make it clear :
(Skill Points*Rank)/(Primary Attribute+secondary Attribute/2)*(1+0.02*Learning Rank)
For instance :
1-->Training 256 000 points, Rank 1, primary attribute 15, secondary 15, learning 1
Time taken : 11 154 minutes
2-->same with lvl 5 learning : 10 343 minutes
3-->Primary at 20, learning at 1 : 9 126 minutes
4-->Primary at 20, learning at 5 : 8462 minutes
What I do : I train all the needed learning skills to the hightest level (Charisma is discarded as I do not do missions so far...).
Then, I train my other skills at least at lvl 2, but generally lvl 3/4. I train the lvl 5 only when I know I won't play for some days (holidays for instance).
Your primary skills are more important than learning skill, but learning helps a little bit. It's usefull if you plan to play a very long time to Eve...
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
ULTIMA TREX
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Posted - 2003.07.24 11:42:00 -
[31]
ur missing something out.
training to level 5 takes time yeah sure. but the argument is what you could be training in that time instead. wellyou will never be training skills none stop sometimes you finish a skill and want tot rain another but you dont have the money for it so you wait. sometimes the skill finishes during night time when ur in bed or somert.
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.25 15:14:00 -
[32]
For example:
Drones Lvl5 so you can use heavy drones
Lvl4 Ship skills so you can pilot cruisers or BS
Lvl4 gunnery or engeneering skills which take 2-3 days, too
There are a lot lot lot more overnightskills than the learning skills.
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Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2003.09.10 19:22:00 -
[33]
The logic is there to train all attributes up to a minimum level of 12. After that you get diminishing returns (as I'm sure has been pointed out).
However, if you need to skill points elsewhere, don't forget that boosters and cyberimplants will also effect attributes and skills. I have read in the dev blog they are working on cyber implants at the moment.
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Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
memex
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Posted - 2003.09.11 08:57:00 -
[34]
dont you think implants will change all this?
------------------
RDA Appreciation Society |
Carbon
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Posted - 2003.09.11 15:47:00 -
[35]
Discorporation: I don't mean to flame you, but your posts come off with a shading of slightly arrogant superiority.
Please, all the poster and subsequent posters have been doing, and are interested in, is other's (including your's) opinions on whether or not training the learning skills to level 5 is worthwhile.
Not everyone is privy to your sources of OOC information. If you know something that could be helpful, please share instead of mocking others.
Interesting sig, btw.. very H.R. Giger.
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GraveDigger
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Posted - 2003.09.12 04:23:00 -
[36]
learning lvl 5 is a waste of your time... end
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Mynobe Soletae
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Posted - 2003.09.12 04:54:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Mynobe Soletae on 12/09/2003 05:03:03
Taking the attributes to 5 may or may not be a waste, depending on what you want:
1. For maximum time savings, take them to 5. It's very likely they'll add "advanced" skills in the future, so might as well take them now.
2. For fastest-time-to-battleship, get them to 4 only. Taking all learning skills from 4 to 5 uses up 1.2 million points, over one month. If you dump a million points into the Starship Command skills instead, you can pilot 3 extra races' frigates, cruisers, AND battleships. Look it up.
Personally, I wanted to be useful, so I took them to 4 and took most of the skills. I can fly a number of ships (not all, heh), use most weaponry and modules, and even manufacture a bit.
I figure, when they introduce "advanced" skills, I'll be just about done training what I want, so I'll have time to take the learning skills to 5 and go advanced, and only lose a few months, max. |
Kalar Vrask
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Posted - 2003.09.12 12:52:00 -
[38]
I've done all of them to 5 apart from Charisma. I'll be playing for another year at least, 4.2m skillpoints now. And have the advantage that as new skills come out, I can learn them as fast as I possibly can, which in some cases can give you a cutting edge - first Titan pilot, first to hit Super Production Efficiency Lvl5 
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CrisB
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Posted - 2003.09.13 13:04:00 -
[39]
I hope somebody reads this as I seem to be posting this very far on in this discussion. I must agree with some of u that unless u are planning on playing this in the long term, training ur learning skills up to lvl5 is pretty much pointless. But if u are going to play for a longer period of time, it is not only important that u train the learning skills, but also in what order. As most of u know learning skills require intell as primary and memory as secondary. Thus the obvious conclusion that one should train "Analytical Mind" and "Instant Recall" first to save time on the other learning skills as well. I know that once u have read this u'll think IÆm just pointing out the obvious but it's surprising how many people I have meat who haven't thought of this.
Quote: "Common sense is not very common"
-------------------------------------------
*The trouble with morning is that it comes at an ungodly hour*
*Any man can stand adversity; if you want to test a man's character, give him power*
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups*
*The only really dumb questions are the ones you do not have the courage to ask*
*Do not look to where you fell but where you slipped*
*All religions issue Bibles against Satan,and say the most injurious things against him, but we never hear his side* (Mark Twain)
*Church history is always written to justify the survivors*
*Great people believe in themselves; small people want others to believe in them*
*It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog*
*Soldiers fight, but kings become heroes*
*Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent*
*True strengh lies in having to courage to do the right thing*
*The future is unlimited as long as man cares for mankind* |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.14 01:59:00 -
[40]
Both Cybernetics and Advanced Cybernetics are visible in the chaos market if you look hard enough, cybernetics is rank 3, adv Cybernetics is rank 8 and needs science 5 and cybernetics 5 :P the best implants need adv cybernetics at 5 :P thats 3 million skill points all in to use the best ;)
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:12:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 23/09/2003 23:52:09
Edited by: Xander Teg on 16/09/2003 13:15:11
This forum has been a great help to me on wether or not to train my learning skills from level 4 to level 5. But I have to point out that if Dan Forever's formula is in fact how training speed is determined you are all overlooking some very fudamental mathmatical principles.
1. Cell Satimo, and Archemedes have implied that there are diminishing returns on the increase in training speed once your atributes get to a certain level. This is mathmatically impossible.
(p+s/2)(1.02l)=skill points trained per min
holding l constant this is a linear equation. i don't even need to calculate anything to tell you that the starting value of s and p has no bearing on how much the increase in training speed is. test it. start with s=p=1, then do s=p=2 and see what the difference in training speed is, then try s=p=100, followed by s=p=101, and see what difference in training speed is for the same increase of +1 each skill only with unrealistically high attributes.
saying that there are somehow diminishing returns on the resultant of this equation is graphically equivalent to saying that the slope of a straight line is not constent.
more to come.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:45:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 16/09/2003 13:47:12
Edited by: Xander Teg on 16/09/2003 13:46:28
(p+s/2)(1.02l)=training speed
2. Another huge point that is getting over looked is that if you are increasing both factors (p+s/2) and (1.02l) this equations is no longer linear but exponential(mildly exponential to be sure but exponential). As a result your benefits of training both compound.
Again, i don't even need to do any calculations to tell you that training both atribute skills to 5 and learning skill to 5 is going get your lost training time back faster then training one or the other to 5 only. This is because you are taking advantage of the exponential properties of the function.
Ilia Volyova said it would take training of 11.5M skill points to get back the lost training time for trainling learning to lv5. Although I calculated differently, i think this is accurate, if you are training learning to lv5 and leaving attribute skills at lv4. I got that it would take no more than 882 days which is probably close to 11.5M skill points.
Likewise with attribute points. If you train all 4 to lv5 and don't train learning to lv5 Ilia is right it is slightly better. I got that it would take my character 632 days to get back that training time back.
but both of these examples are holding a factor in the equation constent making the gains linear. By increasing both you get exonential benefits.
i'll give my character as an example next post.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:11:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 16/09/2003 15:01:17
Edited by: Xander Teg on 16/09/2003 14:21:24
Edited by: Xander Teg on 16/09/2003 14:14:02
training learning skills from lv4 to lv5 hurts my charaver alot more than most becuase of his lopsided atributes(lv5 attribute skills):
percept: 18
will: 16
int: 11
mem:10
char:6(its pretty sad my female agents barely give me the time if day)
by just training learning skill from 4 to 5 Xander loses no more than 368,733 skill points. I say "no more than" because that is how many he could train on his fastest skills (p=17, s=15)inplace of the 210,735 skill points required for learning(p=9,S=10) lv4 to lv5. Take my word that for Xander the linear increase in skill training you get from lv5 learning over lv4 learning is .29 skill points per minute. At that increased rate it will take him 882 days to get back the 368K.
by just training the 4 attributes, Xander loses no more than 1,475,118 skill points. and the linear increase of skill training from lv4 to lv5 gives him a 1.62 skill point per minute boost. So to get that 1.48M skill points back will take 632 days.
Now by training both to level 5, Xander loses no more than 1,843,918 skill points, and the exponential increase from lv 4 to lv 5 gives us a range of between 1.94-2.14 extra skill points per minute. so to get back 1.8M skill points it will take an average of 629 days.(more if you train more intelligence and memory based skills, less if you train more perception and willpower based skills).
Remember Xander is pretty much the worst case scenario, because of his low memory and intelligence. If memory is your highest att and intel your 2nd highest, you will only lose 1.05M skill points training all 5 learning skills from lv4 to lv5 instead of 1.8M. This will reduce the amount of time you need to get them back to about 350 days(i'm guessing haven't calculated this one)
a few notes:
1) I ignored the fact that he trains instant recall and analytical mind first, thereby decreasing the amount of skill points he loses slightly.
2) I assume i will never train a skill with charisma as a primary or secondary attribute.
My advice: All or none. Either train all 5 to level 5 or leave them all at 4. But hey, to each his own.
If you are curious about my calculations contact me ingame and i will upload my work to a website and give you the address. There is much to much to post on the forum.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.16 16:11:00 -
[44]
I have just been infromed of what people mean by deminishing returns. If you have p=s=1 and L=1
(1.5)(1.02)=1.53
(3)(1.02)=3.06
while only an increase of 1.53 SP/min is a 100% percentage increase
while s=p=100
(150)(1.02)=153
(151.5)(1.02)=154.53
which is also an increase of 1.53 but this time is only a 1% percentage increase
so they mean the diminishing return is percentage based not actual increase based
I can see how this is an easy trap to fall into when thinking about getting back the time put in. DON'T FALL INTO IT. When considering how long it takes to gain those skill points back it is the 1.53 extra SP/min that matters and not the percentage of the increase. So my above posts still hold. My apologies to Archemedes and Cell for misunderstanding your meaning.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Nyte
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Posted - 2003.09.17 16:09:00 -
[45]
Can I just ask how long it took (anyone who learn) lv5 Learning to take from Lv4 - Lv5 ?
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Condemner
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Posted - 2003.09.18 01:24:00 -
[46]
i trained to lvl 5 forgot how long it took but i plan on playing the game long.... term so it'll be worth it for me eventually
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Asmodes
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Posted - 2003.09.18 13:28:00 -
[47]
11 days for me to train to lvl 5
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Elbereth
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Posted - 2003.09.19 15:18:00 -
[48]
I must say No
The Matrix is full of Exploiters ,You dont see Neo complain. |
LUC1FER
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Posted - 2003.09.20 03:45:00 -
[49]
took me 6 days to learn lvl 5 in learning
and im doing all the learning skills when i am not playing other wise i train other skills when in game
and ive found its increased the learning speeds up, lvl 4 of the other learning skills take just over a day
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I am not asking for blood, i can take your blood. I am asking for souls, which i can make as painful as you wish. |
Silinary
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Posted - 2003.09.21 00:31:00 -
[50]
I'm not planning to train lvl 5 in learning, but if I did, it would take 5 days 10 hours approx. (That was with 19 memory and 15 intel, I recently got lvl 5 in analytical mind and now have 16 intel and workign on 1 more for memory)
You can do anything you set your mind to. |
Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.09.21 01:43:00 -
[51]
Well, I admit that I set my character up knowing that implants were coming so I had the base attributes of 8-9-7-5-14... that let me max learning skills fast. By the time I was lvl 4 in all skills it took 6d11h to go to lvl 5. Lucky for me the implants came out and I am now at 13-17-11-13-18. Doing Mem now... was dumb and did Int first. Have 4.3 million SP. The implants are off setting my low starting stats. This may have not been the best way to go but seemed the best in the long term.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.21 16:56:00 -
[52]
Quote:
So, currently probably not worth it, but maybe it will be someday....
This is terrible logic.
If you wait until you NEED it to train it, you have essentially WASTED all the time between now and then. Whereas, if you train it now you will get the benefits in the meantime, and when new skills are added you will be able to learn them immediately instead of waiting a week.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Gozer
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Posted - 2003.09.22 10:42:00 -
[53]
go to the eve oracle and type in 'learning'.
if you follow the link you'll be given a mathematical formula which basically shows how learning any skill is helped by increasing the primary and secondary stats involved multiplied by your learning skill level. |
Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.23 23:53:00 -
[54]
yes, and i talk about it quite extensivly at the top of this page.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.09.24 03:14:00 -
[55]
There is no right or wrong answer here, it all depends on what your characters goals are.
However, here is a much simpler way of looking at the question. The well-known formula for the time it takes to learn a skill is:
T = SP/((P+S/2)*(1+0.02L)
T is the time in minutes , SP is the number of skill points you need, P and S are you primary and secondary attributes, and L is your level in learning.
So, let's assume you have a skill you want to learn, what's the difference between having L=4 and L=5. It's not exactly 2% as the skill description leads you to believe, it is actually (I'll leave the algebraic manipulations as an excercise to the reader:
T5/T4 = 1.08/1.10 = 0.98182 = (1 - 0.018182)
In other words, you will save 1.8% of the time it would have taken at L=4. Note how it doesn't matter what skills you train, nor what your stats are--given a sequence of training, you will save 1.8% off that time.
The "break-even" point is therefore 1/0.018182 = 55 times the length of time it took to learn Learning 5. If it takes you 7 days to learn it, it will take 7 * 55 = 385 days to break even.
It's now your decision.
However to complicate your decision, let's say you currently have mem 10, int 10, learning 4. That's about 9 days to learning 5 (and a whopping 495 days to break even). But what if you wait, do agent missions and get an int+3 and a mem+3 implant (or do something else and buy them!) With these new values, you will save over 2 days in training learning 5, which means you'd shave over 114 days off your break-even point. In other words, waiting might actually pay off. Something else to think about....
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.24 10:40:00 -
[56]
Yes, with my new 19 INT and 19 MEM I think I will be maxing my Learning skills. 
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.24 17:58:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 24/09/2003 17:59:00
Ansuul, in your calculations you are making an asumption that makes your end result only true for a specific group of players.
Namely those whose mem and int attributes are their highest.
For characters like me who are perception and willpower based you must not only consider the 8 or 9 days to train the skill, but also what you could have been training for that time. For the 8 days i trained learning i could have been training surgical strike or rapid fire. Had i been training those skills i would have been training almost 10 skill points per minute faster than the speed i was training learning. That 10 skill points per minute for 8 days must be added on to the amount lost due to training learning. Its not just 7 days it takes to train the skill you lose. If anyone has had microeconomics it helps to think of it in terms of opportunity cost. I talk about this in my 3rd post.
Also waiting does not help at all. Say you wait for implants and they decrease the training time by 2 days. So what. This is relative. With implants you are training at an accelerated level, for any skill not just learning. So effectivly losing 5 days of training with implants is equivalent to losing 7 days training without. There is no difference.
This last point becomes alot clearer if you think about it in terms of the training speed and not the time it takes to train.
Veruna is a good example of a character that gets maximum benefits from learning skills. with 19 in both int and mem, I am assuming those are her highest 2 attributes. This means that there is nothing she could train faster than learning skills, so effectivly she has the least to lose from training them, because her oportunity cost is lower.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.09.28 01:13:00 -
[58]
There really isn't any opportunity cost when it comes to training.
Think of it this way, say you want to train the following skills: science L5, industry L5, gunnery L5, cruiser L5 (I've picked a smattering from skills with vastly different attribute requirements). I'm sure that a given character will be very good at training some of these, and bad at others. Does it make a difference what order you train them at? No. No matter what order you choose, the total time will be the same.
If there were opportunity cost, then there would be a difference.
I have also purposefully avoided any learning skills in the above, since they alter the training equation. So now, consider the following: if you want to train gunnery L5 and learning L5, is there a difference in the order? Obviously, yes. You will learn both skills in less total time if you choose to do learning first since it will reduce the time it will take to learn gunnery. This is completely independent of your attributes. It doesn't matter if you take 5 days or 15 days to train learning L5.
The reason for all this is that you do not pay for skills with SPs--you pay for them with real time. SPs are just a calculating tool to determine the amount of time.
So, going back to my argument in a previous post, to make your decision about learning L5, just think that it will take you 55 times that training time to break even. And this is why waiting for an implant makes a difference, since it alters the break-even point by reducing the time it takes to train learning.
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GM Abraxas
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Posted - 2003.09.28 13:07:00 -
[59]
I intend to print out this thread and read it after a night shift (probably over quite a few cups of tea).
No real comment, except that I commend you people on holding civilized discussions about these issues and presenting your viewpoints with clarity and candor. Threads like these can prove very useful to a GM interested in that particular aspect of the game.
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Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.09.28 18:32:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Xander Teg on 28/09/2003 19:05:48
Quote:
Think of it this way, say you want to train the following skills: science L5, industry L5, gunnery L5, cruiser L5 (I've picked a smattering from skills with vastly different attribute requirements). I'm sure that a given character will be very good at training some of these, and bad at others. Does it make a difference what order you train them at? No. No matter what order you choose, the total time will be the same.
This is where we disagree. I am specializing in missile and turret combat. The skill pools i train are gunnery, missile ops, nav, spaceship command, and engineering. Of those skills only engineering is not perception and willpower based. I will never train industry, drone, or science skills. So as a result there is an opportunity cost.
Quote:
The reason for all this is that you do not pay for skills with SPs--you pay for them with real time. SPs are just a calculating tool to determine the amount of time.
Its the same thing. Think of it this way: Say you have two identical characters BOB and TOM who want to specialize in combat. for arguments sake lets say they have perception and willpower at 20 and intel and mem at 10 and learning at lv0. Suppose BOB starts training Surgical strike lv5 and TOM starts train learning lv5 at the same instant.
Then:
BOB trains
30SP/min for 10 days(14400 min) for a total of 432000 SP
TOM trains
15SP/min for 10 days(14400 min) for a total of 216000 SP.
Note: this is just for arguments sake it only takes just under 211000 SP to train learning from lv4 to lv5
Both TOM and BOB trained for 10 days. But BOB trained 216000 SP more than TOM. Had TOM been training any other percept/will based skill he too would have trained 432000 SP.
What matters is that over that 10 days TOM essentially "lost" 432000 SP. Because that is the number of skill points that TOM could have put into the specialty skills that he wants to train. That 432000 SP is what he must earn back with the benefit of learning lv5. Once he trains 432000 SP over and above what he would train with learning lv4, TOM breaks even.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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