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Hardin
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Posted - 2003.07.14 18:56:00 -
[1]
Peeps I have been having a debate with a corp member...
He believes that the time invested in taking ur learning & attribute skills to level 5 is not worth the time that u save learning other skills...Hes says no point training em beyond level 4!
Is he right?
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Kalast Raven
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:14:00 -
[2]
reference this thread for additional inof on this topic.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=10530
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K. Raven
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:16:00 -
[3]
NO need to train ANY skill to lv5 unless it's pre-requirement.
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 14/07/2003 19:27:33
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Aras
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:20:00 -
[4]
Look at it like this: that final level is another 2% better training time. We'll only talk about the "learning skill"
2% of 1 hour is 1.2 minutes
2% of 1 day is 28.8 minutes
2% of 1 week is 201.6 minutes or 3.36 hours
Now, we'll say that it takes about 10 days give or take to train a skill from 0 to 5. (More for higher ranked skills, but for arguments sake we just say 10 days)
With that in mind you'll save about 288 minutes or 4.8 hours. If you train over 100 skills (there are more than 100 skills in the game.) you'll end up saving 480 hours or 20 days.
And this is just "learning skill" from lvl 4 to lvl 5 and not including the bonuses from advancing the 5 other learning skills from lvl 4 to lvl 5.
Basic math say... Yes IMHO it worth every minute of training time to take your skills to lvl 5.
Suggestion, if you don't want to train to lvl 5 all of your learning skill.. train the ones that are required for the skills that you focus on, at a minimum.
Just my take on it..
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.14 19:27:00 -
[5]
aras, Did you realize your math miss 1 thing: how long it will save you 20 days? lol, that's several years......
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.07.14 21:58:00 -
[6]
On the Learning skill itself, the answer is easy: it's not worth it unless you're planning VERY long-term. It takes a full YEAR to just recoup the time you spend training it. So if you expect to be playing the same character a year from now you might get SOME benefit out of it, but even in TWO years you've only saved a few days training time.
For the stat boosters, it's harder to say. The lower your stat, the bigger training boost you get from raising it. Personally, I train to 5 if my stat is not over 10, 4 if it is over 10, and 1 if it's Charisma. :)
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.15 07:11:00 -
[7]
I guess y'all haven't heard of the Advanced skills yet.
Prerequisite: lvl5 in the base skill
(Think Drone Interfacing to get an idea what they do)
No idea when they'll be in, but you have plenty of time to get all your skills up to level 5.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.15 09:18:00 -
[8]
When there IS some advanced skills need learning to lv5, THEN train it......
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Hardin
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Posted - 2003.07.15 10:40:00 -
[9]
Well if you are going train it up to level 5 at some point or other you may as well do it now and start getting the benefit immediately!
I do intend to be a 'long-term' player so have no problem training it up.
However my original question was not just about the learning skills...but also about the 'attribute' skills.
Can anyone tell me roughly how much time (or percentage of time) you save by increasing your attributes.
Take this example (and I apologise for any errors in advance as I am at work and not online in EVE atm to double check)
ATM I have Drones skill level 4 and Mining Drones skill level 4. I am thinking about training them up to 5 each.
Now the key attributes for the Drones skills are Intelligence or Memory (I think) and Perception.
If prior to my taining of future drones skills I train my perception by 1 skill level roughly how much time (percentage of time) would I then save on training the drone skill where Perception is one of its two attributes? (can't remember if it is the primary or secondary attribute).
How much difference is there anyway between the impact of the primary and secondary attribute on the training of a particular skill?
Sorry if this sounds confused...
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.15 10:48:00 -
[10]
Training some of the Attribute skills up to level 5 is an advantage, based upon your current attributes.
With the basic Formula:
Primary + (Secondary/2) = Skill points per minute
You can get an idea of the benefit. There isnÆt a fixed ratio or time saver factor, but if you use the formula you can get an idea if it will help your situation.
I am in a situation where going from level 4 to level 5 on spatial awareness will save me just under 10% for all piloting skills.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:03:00 -
[11]
Thx - so it definitely seems that training ur attributes up will make a big difference to learning times...
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:16:00 -
[12]
I ahve been using a new character for this week, and i can confirm that training your abilities all above 10, before going fo the other skills makes an incredible difference, im training most skills 10-20% fast than my first character did. The learning 2% skill is only worth training to level 5 if you plan on playing the game for 14 months after you reach level 5.
I would recommend every get their attributes trained to level 4, and try to balance your char in creation so that they are all about 12 ish, unless of course you want to be able to specialise, i.e weapons, then train perception higher etc
Mercenary | The Azath |
Reklaw
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Posted - 2003.07.15 11:46:00 -
[13]
i just want to say that i have learning lvl 5 alraedy and with all the others at lvl 3 it does make some difference to training times but the bonuses it gives dont kick in until you start training your other skills to lvl 4 and above before that theres not much difference as far as i can see but again i would say its worth doing if youre planning on playing long term
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Skinnerer
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Posted - 2003.07.15 15:23:00 -
[14]
"When there IS some advanced skills need learning to lv5, THEN train it...... "
Why not train them now and save time from now, instead of leaving it until you only start saving time later?
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.15 15:59:00 -
[15]
Learning at L5 will reduce training time by 1.8% over that at L4 by my calculations. This is independent of what your attributes are, or what skill you are training. Therefore, if you take the time it took to train learning to L5 and multiply by 55, that is the "break-even" point, the point at which you will have saved as much time as it took to train Learning.
For the attribute skills, there is no way to just boil it down to one number. For me, raising analytical mind from L4 to L5 would have a 3.9% effect, break-even multiplier of 25.5x (but only where Int is the primary skill, mind you). Training Instant Recall to L5 would have a 4.4% effect, break even at 22.5x.
The lower your attribute, the greater the effect and the less time it takes to break even.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.15 16:05:00 -
[16]
Won't start now because there's no confirmed information about "advanced learning skills" which require lv5 learning......
And if there's no such thing, you just waste your time in several years...
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Aras
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:25:00 -
[17]
Once again, most ppl fail to see the picture as a whole. My previous calculations are a base set. You need to take into consideration that some skill are going to have very high ranks.
Rank 12 skills will take days to train to lvl 1, So don't base all your decisions of the example I gave in the previous post.. That was just so you could see how they save more time than it takes to learn the skill set.
in reality it will save you months or longer in long run.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Aras
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:35:00 -
[18]
the formula is actuall
(Skill Points you need to get * rank of skill) /(Primary Attr + 0.5 * Secondary Attr)
So if you are training a rank 2 skill it would be like this.
some skill rank[2] 15000/45000, you would need 30000 skill points so the formula would be
(30000 * 2) / (10 + .5 * 10) assuming you have 10 attri point in the primary and secondary skills which is
60000/15 or 4000 minutes not counting the learning skill
so the same situation if you had primary skill boosted to lvl 5 would be:
60000/20 or 3000 minutes.
As I said before.. do the math.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:36:00 -
[19]
I've said this before in other threads, but it's worthwhile saying here again. While I am of the opinion that from a time-utilation point of view there isn't much benefit to training any skill to L5 unless it is a prerequisite, I don't use this as my sole basis of judgment. I haven't trained learning to L5, but I have trained 5 skills to L5, only one of which was a requirement (refining). I may not be doing "full" roleplaying here, but I do have a character concept that I am working towards, and I will not try to argue anyone out of training to L5 in a skill.
In fact, I've trained Research 5, and that is one of the most useless skills I have. But I envision myself as a scientist, so I did it.
But as for the rank issue, it does not matter in the calculation for learning whether you are training rank 1 skills or rank 12. The break-even analysis is independent of the skills being trained.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.19 22:29:00 -
[20]
aras, no matter how high the rank is, it's just simply matter of time, and train learning from lv4 to lv5 won't save you any time within 1-2 years
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.20 00:40:00 -
[21]
Discorp.......""I guess y'all haven't heard of the Advanced skills yet.""
<--- Looks into crystal ball. Nothing.
Your right I havn't heard of these advanced skills. Oh wait at the end of beta we did see some skills not in the game ( jove ships rank 12 and I think one lvl 8) but higher attribute skills? Nope nothin there.
No prerequisits for higher attribute skills = no brainer to train lvl 5.
Now if your talking about the skills that are in the game (not what this post was about in the first place) that require a prequisit such as drone interfacing etc, cruise missles etc. thats different.
If your talking about future skills that are supposedly coming *COUGH* please disclose your source of info or kindly keep the smart ass fanboi one liners to a minimum.
*thanks*
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Skek
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Posted - 2003.07.20 04:46:00 -
[22]
Long term you're probably best taking learning plus stats to the max early in a characters development as they'll affect every single thing to come.
Realistically though I took learning plus stats to lvl 4 which was enough to give learning time a good decrease without tying myself up for weeks.
However... If i'm away for the weekend I do set these learning skills to train, so i do plan on eventually having them all at lvl 5.
I find that this is the best compromise. Train em when you can, but don't make it a big priority past lvl 4, as that has the biggest benefit to time spent ratio.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:42:00 -
[23]
Nono
<<If your talking about future skills that are supposedly coming *COUGH* please disclose your source of info or kindly keep the smart ass fanboi one liners to a minimum.>>
Take a peek on Chaos, bub.
<edit>
and from the http://vnboards.ign.com/Vn boards[/ur] in http://vnboards.ign.com/board.asp?brd=22281 this thread[url] comes the quote:
Hrafnkell S. Ëskarsson: "New skills will be introduced when new tech levels arrive. The next tech level (tech level 2) will be introduced in a month or two
:)
Edited by: Discorporation on 20/07/2003 11:51:33
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.20 12:57:00 -
[24]
Just a few numbers:
Learning Lvl5 - learning saves you effeciently 1.82% per level. To bring it from lvl4 to lvl5 costs you 210k skill points.
So, in order to actually reap the benefits from lvl5 learning you will need to train 210k * (100/1.82) -> 11.5 MILLION skill points.
It's slightly better with the attribute skills, there it varies from 2 to 5 Million points - but those are only in skills which have that attribute as primary.
So, basically, if you train learning skills to lvl5 you will reap the benefits realy realy realy late in the game, and have by then only a very small increase.
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.07.21 06:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ansuul on 21/07/2003 20:55:16
 Quote:
Take a peek on Chaos, bub.
I just did and didn't see a single skill on the market (even without supply) on Chaos that isn't on the market on Tranquility. And at least in the Forge, even the 3 listed but unavailable science skills still have no supply.
So, could you be more specific as to what you were referring to?
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.21 07:16:00 -
[26]
Ask around, I'm not going to spoil all the fun for you.
<edit>
It might help to ask a Gm or superchar.
Edited by: Discorporation on 21/07/2003 07:18:56
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Bon3s
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Posted - 2003.07.21 11:50:00 -
[27]
Check out the learningskill timer.
http://www.eve-i.com/skilltimer.php
Edited by: Bon3s on 21/07/2003 11:51:51
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Zachary Sikorsky
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Posted - 2003.07.21 22:11:00 -
[28]
or simply drop by at the TTI-nexus. advanced learning skills are already in the code, just waiting to be found or rather released.
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Dan Forever
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Posted - 2003.07.22 12:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dan Forever on 22/07/2003 12:01:32
guys!
The formula for the number of skill points learnt every minute is:
( P + S/2 )*( 1 + 0.02 * L )
P = Primary Attribute
S = Secondary Attribute
L = Learning Skill Level
Then to find out how long it will take to learn a level, take the number of skill points you need and divide by your answer to get the time in minutes
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.07.22 12:42:00 -
[30]
To make it clear :
(Skill Points*Rank)/(Primary Attribute+secondary Attribute/2)*(1+0.02*Learning Rank)
For instance :
1-->Training 256 000 points, Rank 1, primary attribute 15, secondary 15, learning 1
Time taken : 11 154 minutes
2-->same with lvl 5 learning : 10 343 minutes
3-->Primary at 20, learning at 1 : 9 126 minutes
4-->Primary at 20, learning at 5 : 8462 minutes
What I do : I train all the needed learning skills to the hightest level (Charisma is discarded as I do not do missions so far...).
Then, I train my other skills at least at lvl 2, but generally lvl 3/4. I train the lvl 5 only when I know I won't play for some days (holidays for instance).
Your primary skills are more important than learning skill, but learning helps a little bit. It's usefull if you plan to play a very long time to Eve...
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
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