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Vengeance Ignited
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.08 02:55:00 -
[31] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Vengeance Ignited wrote:... Because I bet the old timers all run with max implants and have unlocked most of everything... Really? Do you really believe that? Sorry, but, seriously? Vengeance Ignited wrote:So which do you want? A game where you can rip up a quickly rotating small group of newbies, or a game where the population actually grows? Do you know what happened to one of the most infamous groups of total Eve newbies? None of whom had any clue how to do *anything* when they first started, and were hated and harassed non stop by the older and more established veteran players at the time? They became Goonswarm, one of the biggest power blocks in the galaxy. And the veteran players that harassed them? BoB has been dead and gone for a long long time now. Killed by Goonswarm in one of the greatest wars (and greatest betrayals) in Eve history.
I may be new but I still read the wiki entry for goonswarm. They weren't a "group of newbies". They were a bunch of internet asshats from somethingawful who organized several campaigns to get massive number of forum posters to join and try to cause the game to fail by super-griefing everybody. The fact that they were up against the band of brothers who cheated using devs doesn't change that fact. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
821
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Posted - 2013.02.08 04:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vengeance Ignited wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:skills are fine. l2p So if he learns to play better, his skills will train fast enough to start closing the gap? the gap is a lie. you can get near perfect skills for almost any aspect of the game in about six to nine months, you just have to specialize. and not only that, after you have one area where you can compete with the 'veterans', there are usually several other areas that are easy to branch out into. if you are so desperate to sink money into getting SP, create a second acc and train up an alt or just sell some PLEX and buy a char.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Bob Killan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ok lets entertain this idea.
noob) "I want a way to catch up with that 200 mil SP Vet?" CCP) "OK we will let you have 1 mil SP per plex instant transfer" noob) "cool i can afford to sink -ú900 in here so thats about 60 plex. Wow 120 mil SP im well on my way to catching him. well almost maybe i can afford to catch up more next month too."
far away near a distant star
Elitist McVeteran) "Wow noob has suddenly jumped from 1 mil to 121mil SP in a day, I need to get further ahead." ***Jumps out of his bath full of ISK and goes into ISK hanger 1 to start counting. Elitist McVeteran) "BROKER. BROKER where are you?" Broker) "Yes Elitist" Elitist McVeteran) "here's 100billion anychance you could buy us 200 Plex tokens?" Broker) "you know me I always like broker fee's. hehehehe"
...sometime later
Broker) "here you go I got those tokens for you only managed 190 due to inflation from buying so many, Fly safe dont want to get ganked with that in your cargo" Elitist McVeteran) "Dont worry your self over that its SP im after. CCP! CCP! Give me 190 mil SP please.
As you can see for the RP. Your suggestion is flawed, badly flawed.
Anyway there is a hard Cap to how many SP are usefull to a certain ship/role. A vet will have hit this cap so with out even logging on your closing the gap by ~1.5 m SP per month assuming you keep your skill queue full. |
Quintessen
Nakamori Ventures
7
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Posted - 2013.02.08 14:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bob Killan wrote:As you can see from the RP. Your suggestion is flawed, badly flawed.
Anyway there is a hard Cap to how many SP are usefull to a certain ship/role. A vet will have hit this cap so with out even logging on your closing the gap by ~1.5 m SP per month assuming you keep your skill queue full.
While I'm not for this idea, it's not as if it's a problem that can't be gotten around. They already did it with the standings.
You wouldn't get a flat number of SP, but some small percentage of total SP between you and the maximum possible SP. Older characters could do it, but it wouldn't be as beneficial.
As an example, let's say there's 100M possible skill points in the game ( I know there's more but 100M is a nice round number).
Let's say you get 1% SP towards that cap per PLEX.
So at 0 SP, 1 PLEX would give you 1M SP. But say you have a veteran who has 80M SP, then that same 1% towards max would only give them 200k SP. And there's plenty of reasons to make that excuse in lore. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
11
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Posted - 2013.02.08 15:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vengeance Ignited wrote:They weren't a "group of newbies".
Yes they were. They will tell you this themselves. In fact I suspect they will tell you that they still suck at Eve today despite their incredible success.
Vengeance Ignited wrote:They were a bunch of internet asshats from somethingawful who organized several campaigns to get massive number of forum posters to join and try to cause the game to fail by super-griefing everybody.
So?
Vengeance Ignited wrote:The fact that they were up against the band of brothers who cheated using devs doesn't change that fact.
I don't see how that is relevant. If anything it just further demonstrates my point. |
Zaq Phelps
Ad idem
14
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Vengeance Ignited wrote:They weren't a "group of newbies". Yes they were. They will tell you this themselves. In fact I suspect they will tell you that they still suck at Eve today despite their incredible success. Vengeance Ignited wrote:They were a bunch of internet asshats from somethingawful who organized several campaigns to get massive number of forum posters to join and try to cause the game to fail by super-griefing everybody. So? Vengeance Ignited wrote:The fact that they were up against the band of brothers who cheated using devs doesn't change that fact. I don't see how that is relevant. If anything it just further demonstrates my point.
Meh. Goons and BoB weren't about new players and veteran players. BoB was about veteran players against the galaxy. They were in a large sense a lot like Romans setting out to conquer the barbarians. Goons happened to be the most barbaric of the barbarians. Not because they were necessarily newer to the game, but because they were different.... special... almost in a short bus kinda way. It was very entertaining. Especially since everyone else just decided that internet spaceships was serious business and needed to be conducted that way.
On the subject of this thread, SP allows ingame structured activities, but nothing replaces pilot skill, proper fits, and meta game skill. |
S'Way
Bitter Vets
442
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Posted - 2013.02.11 01:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
Morwraith wrote: Now I'm not saying that veterans shouldn't have an advantage having been playing for so long however there should be some way for newer players to close the gap; even if it is at a considerable cost to that player. Additonally they could always have a dimishing system where plex will only allow you to advance your character so far perhaps having reduced effect as players approach a certain threshold.
Not sure why new players feel they can't "catch up" with veterans - the fact is you can only use a certain amount of skills at any one time. Unless there's a way to train skills past level 5 that appeared out of nowhere, all those millions of extra sp's do is give a player more choices in what ships they can fly effectively - it doesn't make them better in them.
As for plex or another way to buy sp's - it wouldn't close the gap to a lot of older vets. Even with big diminishing returns as suggested there's a few of us that would probably still max out every skill simply because we could. |
PhantomTrojan
Impervious corporation
5
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Posted - 2013.02.11 02:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
i have got a solution for all of this.
lets make the plex give 100 sp per plex so it comes down to how fast someone can click to give money to ccp per minute. |
Quintessen
Nakamori Ventures
12
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
S'Way wrote:Morwraith wrote: Now I'm not saying that veterans shouldn't have an advantage having been playing for so long however there should be some way for newer players to close the gap; even if it is at a considerable cost to that player. Additonally they could always have a dimishing system where plex will only allow you to advance your character so far perhaps having reduced effect as players approach a certain threshold.
Not sure why new players feel they can't "catch up" with veterans - the fact is you can only use a certain amount of skills at any one time. Unless there's a way to train skills past level 5 that appeared out of nowhere, all those millions of extra sp's do is give a player more choices in what ships they can fly effectively - it doesn't make them better in them. As for plex or another way to buy sp's - it wouldn't close the gap to a lot of older vets. Even with big diminishing returns as suggested there's a few of us that would probably still max out every skill simply because we could.
Would you spend 500M to get 1000 SP, 5000 SP, 10k SP? If the answer is no, then it's likely that there is some level of diminishing returns that older players wouldn't buy out and it doesn't matter if one or two do. The question is if most of them would. |
Intar Medris
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
59
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Posted - 2013.02.11 16:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:because regardless of the argument, its moot. plex for SP is pay2win, want to know the closest moment eve got to dying? the moment CCP suggested they might go in that direction.
it wont happen, you can still go and buy a character as suggested.
Still pay2win. Same with having a half dozen alts or more to do anything in EVE. Facts si the more money you throw at EVE the isk you make, and the more kills you get. Plex for SP would be no different. The fact that their is no limitations on how many or what you can do with multiple accounts makes EVE P2W. I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen. |
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S'Way
Bitter Vets
443
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Posted - 2013.02.11 16:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quintessen wrote: Would you spend 500M to get 1000 SP, 5000 SP, 10k SP? If the answer is no, then it's likely that there is some level of diminishing returns that older players wouldn't buy out and it doesn't matter if one or two do. The question is if most of them would.
Additionally even if players would do that, then at least there would be a time that they would make themselves cash poor in order to do it. And frankly I imagine money is what separates veterans from new players more than SP. Veterans can afford to throw away ships (even to suicide gank if need be). New players can't afford to be so cavalier.
There's more than a couple of trillionaires in EvE at this stage of the game that wouldn't think twice about dropping a couple hundred billion or more on sp's if the chance was offered - and it wouldn't make a sizable dent in their wallets. Once you've been playing so long isk becomes no motivator, you could literally burn a billion a day in ship losses and still not lose more than you make from alts and a few minutes effort a day.
However harsh diminishing returns (on top of being pay to win) would be seen by many vets as unfair and lead to a lot of unsubs from CCP's most loyal customers. Given the average sub time of players isn't years they'd be risking their most reliable income (people who've subbed for years) for a short term income boost from selling sp's for plex.
The other thing is few new players would be able to buy plex in-game to fund their main or alt accounts - when you get a lot of old players buying up all the plex to finish some skills without remapping then you'd see plex spiral in price. Can new players afford 1bil or even 2bil a plex ?
I can understand people wanting to take a shortcut and get skills done faster, but as has been said - the character bazaar already provides that without breaking the games economy or costing CCP sub numbers. Yes I know you can't change those characters names currently - I do think they should allow that, as long as the old name is displayed on the characters info somewhere like corp history is. That way you would have the option to make the character "yours" almost as much as you would at character creation (you can already resculpt for plex). |
Quintessen
Nakamori Ventures
12
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Posted - 2013.02.11 17:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
S'Way wrote:Quintessen wrote:... snip ... There's more than a couple of trillionaires in EvE at this stage of the game that wouldn't think twice about dropping a couple hundred billion or more on sp's if the chance was offered - and it wouldn't make a sizable dent in their wallets. Once you've been playing so long isk becomes no motivator, you could literally burn a billion a day in ship losses and still not lose more than you make from alts and a few minutes effort a day. However harsh diminishing returns (on top of being pay to win) would be seen by many vets as unfair and lead to a lot of unsubs from CCP's most loyal customers. Given the average sub time of players isn't years they'd be risking their most reliable income (people who've subbed for years) for a short term income boost from selling sp's for plex. The other thing is few new players would be able to buy plex in-game to fund their main or alt accounts - when you get a lot of old players buying up all the plex to finish some skills without remapping then you'd see plex spiral in price. Can new players afford 1bil or even 2bil a plex ? I can understand people wanting to take a shortcut and get skills done faster, but as has been said - the character bazaar already provides that without breaking the games economy or costing CCP sub numbers. Yes I know you can't change those characters names currently - I do think they should allow that, as long as the old name is displayed on the characters info somewhere like corp history is. That way you would have the option to make the character "yours" almost as much as you would at character creation (you can already resculpt for plex).
I've generally found that it's new players who are putting the money in to buy the PLEX to put on the market. There are newer players who live off of PLEX, but I imagine the longer your account has been live the more likely you are to live off of PLEX for game time. So 2B a PLEX would be a boon for those trying to raise funds.
That said, limits would likely need to be put into place if a system like this were realized. E.g. only one PLEX a month could be redeemed for SP. That would likely prevent the mass grab of PLEX from high-end industrialists and alliance owners.
Now you mentioned the perception of Eve becoming or becoming more P2W would drive older and sometimes newer people away. And I agree that would happen. Though I think that CCP needs to find some way to adjust for the perception of the gap between old and new. CCP does an amazing job of player retention for older players. CPP doesn't do such a great job for transitioning newer players into long-term players. Part of that comes from the perception that older players will have access to resources and have so much SP that they cannot catch up. CCP keeps touting the line that it doesn't matter because of the skill system, but I don't think its resonating. If it were this issue wouldn't keep coming up.
I do believe a better measure is what you described, which is renames for PLEX. I think it will have far fewer repercussions and the ripple effects of PLEX for SP is why I'm against PLEX for SP. But I don't want to the argument to be that creating a fair system that can't be significantly abused is impossible. CCP can solve the problem. I just don't think they should.
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