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Horb
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Posted - 2005.07.12 21:57:00 -
[1]
Has anyone actually tested a dread in siege mode vs. a decently defended POS? There are a lot of people in other forums saying "just wait until we get dreads and we're gonna blow up your POS." Are the dreads (and most likely just a single dread at first) really going to be that much of a death sentence? If I was a betting man I'd probably put my money on the POS. But I don't bet because I usually lose. 
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SaorAlba
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:11:00 -
[2]
A dreadnaught in posistion will mean the end of your POS. It was designed for this job regardless what you think or hope. Only allainces will be capable of defending their POSSES in the end. Freelancers will be shot out the systems asap the first dreadnaught has been build and the allaince has a capable pilot
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Cyric EagleEye
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:48:00 -
[3]
Yeah. Until the next patch-nerf on dreads or pos boost, we will have such problem unfortunately.
And there are quite few rats out there who just want screw your game.
Just let them triple the T2 prices and laugh. 
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:18:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: SaorAlba
A dreadnaught in posistion will mean the end of your POS. It was designed for this job regardless what you think or hope. Only allainces will be capable of defending their POSSES in the end. Freelancers will be shot out the systems asap the first dreadnaught has been build and the allaince has a capable pilot
Why? A dread in siege mode can be killed pathetically easily.
Seriously.
Covops + blasterthron = dead dreadnought.
Dreads will need fleet backup to work. Also, strontium clathrates = dread gets bored, leaves.
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Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Ticondrius
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:36:00 -
[5]
Exactly...
Not to mention that the siege module is basically a self-imposed warp scrambling, because you can't move at all while it's active and it's got a VERY long cycle time.
A Dread with a fleet to defend it will be able to take down a POS, but that's a lot of time, work, and resources to take just ONE tower down. You're going to have to REALLY want it dead.
Furthermore, I know a lot of tower owners have weeks worth of Strontium out at their towers, and the fuel to match. If they have to log in an alt every so often to shovel a few days of fuel and a load of clathrates into the fuel tank, they will, and the tower will never go down.
"If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault." |
Daddy's Princess
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Posted - 2005.07.13 02:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ticondrius
Exactly...
Furthermore, I know a lot of tower owners have weeks worth of Strontium out at their towers, and the fuel to match. If they have to log in an alt every so often to shovel a few days of fuel and a load of clathrates into the fuel tank, they will, and the tower will never go down.
Yes, 2 full corp hangars in fact. good luck
oh, let's not forget sheild hardners and jammers. I honestly can't see a single dread as a threat and no one hates me enough (yet) to bring a fleet.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2005.07.13 04:55:00 -
[7]
POS are outrageously overpowered at the moment. Their price is pathetic compared to their utility, that is if any price could be high enough for that kind of defense.
Dreads ain't no solution.
__________________________
Finite Horizon
Your end is our beginning.
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Cannedbeef
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Posted - 2005.07.13 06:13:00 -
[8]
outrageously overpowered?
a Large Tower will cost you 300mil up front and ~80mil/week.. and its overpowered because it defends a strategically useless location that noone ever has to visit?
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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2005.07.13 07:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cannedbeef
outrageously overpowered?
a Large Tower will cost you 300mil up front and ~80mil/week.. and its overpowered because it defends a strategically useless location that noone ever has to visit?
A dread will cost you ~3 billion or more. POS's are capable of defending themselves to a great extent without the need for defensive fleets.
While a POS's defenses can rarely used for anything else but defending, it serves a different kind of strategical purpose as a base for operations (storing equipment, changing fittings, protecting whilst in system, offering refining etc.). It is a great tool for extended operations near or within enemy territory.
I agree that POS's have an economic purpose of keeping the Tech 2 items and production affordable. However I do think that POS's defenses are slightly unbalanced when you compare it with the effort, investment and co-ordination to bring one down.
And yes, I do run a POS of my own.
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Barbicane
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Posted - 2005.07.13 07:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Horb
Has anyone actually tested a dread in siege mode vs. a decently defended POS? There are a lot of people in other forums saying "just wait until we get dreads and we're gonna blow up your POS." Are the dreads (and most likely just a single dread at first) really going to be that much of a death sentence? If I was a betting man I'd probably put my money on the POS. But I don't bet because I usually lose.
On a more practical side, I don't think anyone has the skills to fly one yet - Advanced Spaceship Command 5 = ~ 2 weeks, and you want a lot of the support skills trained too. Not to mention the trouble of actually building one. Wait 2 months and the first dreads might be starting to show up. |
Aramoro
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Posted - 2005.07.13 08:39:00 -
[11]
The thing with dreadnought is same problem as fleets have just now. With a few large guns if the Dread comes within 250km and someone is at the POS to manually target it then it's going to die. Whats more it's going to die before it can get into seige mode.
The only way it's going to work is if the dread can happily sit out at 250km and hit the pos taking no return fire. If that where the case then POS's would need some sort of Sensor Boosting module to increase their targerting range.
Aramoro
[S]tateCorp - "We are the Presscorp" |
Clipped Wings
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Posted - 2005.07.13 11:09:00 -
[12]
Disclaimer: This is conjecture and assumptions from my side, I do not have any concrete evidence. But bear with me and listen:
A medium POS can, at current time online, and maintain 1-2 large turrets, 3-6 medium turrets, and maybe even a small turret or 2. True, it won't have much in the ways of utility, and as such be a military installation only. But it can be done, and it acn still be fitted with a couple of corporate hanger arrays, for in space refitting.
Against that kind of defence, I have a very nasty feeling that a Dread, siege mode or not, will simply not be able to tank it. At all. Unless you fill up the dread with adaptive nano membranes and 1-2 citadel armor repairers (assuming you're armor tanking), I don't believe that the repairers will keep up in the long run, much less be able to tank it in burst damage. As all guns will fire roughly at the same time, depending on state of aggression, I'd say that above defensive installation would be able to more or less one-volley pretty much anything. I doubt anyone will really want to have to claw back to armor, by beign sent into structure by the first volley.
The current damage output, and in particular, range of POS'es are something that seems way over the top.
A large POS? A large, defended, POS?
Let's assume we take a large POS, kit it with a moon mining array, and a few other practical things, and then kit defensive modules for the rest of it. What, 8 large turrets or so? I don't think any ship in the game can tank that. At all. So, solution would be to warp in 10+ dreadnaughts and haev them enter siege mode, calculating that at least one of them would die initially?
Not forgetting that a small POS apparantly now have a lockrange of 250K, so even small/medium turrets (how come you can fit oversized turrets for POS'es, btw?) will still be able to hit out at that range, with the right ammo. And their damage mod means that...well, it won't matter much.
What's the approximate cost for a large POS + modules? Honest question, I don't have the figures, but I'd wager a guess and say that you can get all things you'd need for under a billion. That installation will be able to annihilate a dread that tried to go into siege mode inside range. Also, I'd wager a guess and say that even a dread, in siege mode, will be hard pressed to hit consistantly at 260K...not to mention its vulnerability.
It just seems the isk needed to take down a POS, versus what it costs to set up a POS, is not at all balanced.
Constructive critic is welcome, as I stated, there are very few things here I have evidence for. It's just one of those gut feeling things...
Cheers.
-Clipped Wings of LFC
"I believe in the theoretical benevolence, and practical malignity of man."
~William Hazlitt
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Jolan Kalduli
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Posted - 2005.07.13 11:25:00 -
[13]
It doesn't really answer your question but you don't need to actually destroy a POS to kill it. A determined corp can cut transports to it with minimal isk investment.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.07.13 12:30:00 -
[14]
Ummm I dont think a solo dread will be in any fleet. These Alliances will have three Dreads in a fleet. They will have support ships the cruiser tech II type. They will have 10 BS 20 frigates nad crusiers.
I dont think the 0.1-0.3 POS will be in any danger tho. I think the 0.0 POS will be the final destination. I believe the 0.0 POS is the cause of a galatic battle nothing in Eve has ever seen.
Here is my battle: A fleet of 30 comes to your neighborhood in 0.0. 3-4 dreads pop in for the fun. Nothing will stop them unless there is a matching fleet. This never happens in Eve.
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I am on alot of kill boards but the wrong column. I give the killmails to our enemys |
Wired
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Posted - 2005.07.13 12:34:00 -
[15]
1 frig = dead dread, heres why.
Dread parks up at range (bout 250km), and starts shooting POS, single frig (something small with mwd, overdrives and a sensor dampner) locks dread orbits rediculously close using dampner. The dread now has to move 125km at bout 90m/s, who is gonna do that.
O.K, that aint really gonna work exactly like that as a dread wont be alone, but a single ship using damps on the dread will give it a headache.
or...
Player sees cyno field appear on overview, it takes a few minutes for a dread to lock on and jump and theres also the fact that even with uber skills a dread cant jump from one side of eve to the other, so you should be able to trace the path of the "field" ship, warp to the ship pop it, dread is stuck.
Someone's prob going to flame me, but OP asked if dread was a death sentence, i've just pointed out here a couple of ways that Mr Dread can be overcome with a bit of thought around game mechanics.
=============================================
If you cant have sex with the monkey
Make friends with the organ grinder.... |
THCS
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Posted - 2005.07.13 12:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wired
1 frig = dead dread, heres why.
Dread parks up at range (bout 250km), and starts shooting POS, single frig (something small with mwd, overdrives and a sensor dampner) locks dread orbits rediculously close using dampner. The dread now has to move 125km at bout 90m/s, who is gonna do that.
O.K, that aint really gonna work exactly like that as a dread wont be alone, but a single ship using damps on the dread will give it a headache.
or...
Player sees cyno field appear on overview, it takes a few minutes for a dread to lock on and jump and theres also the fact that even with uber skills a dread cant jump from one side of eve to the other, so you should be able to trace the path of the "field" ship, warp to the ship pop it, dread is stuck.
Someone's prob going to flame me, but OP asked if dread was a death sentence, i've just pointed out here a couple of ways that Mr Dread can be overcome with a bit of thought around game mechanics.
If I am not mistake the Seige Module prevents ECM modules warpscramblers or webbers effecting the dread when in seige mode. Not sure but you were not able to jam dreads on Test while in seige mode.
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Solacia
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Posted - 2005.07.13 13:18:00 -
[17]
To be honest it SHOULD be extremely costly and risky to try and take down a POS compared to defending it.
Why??
Well consider the effort players put into setting up and running one. A POS isn't somthing you just setup and then it makes isk for you, it takes time and effort to get the benefits from it.
Taking down a POS should be costly simply to make corps consider how worthwhile it is to try instead of them being able to go on a POS ganking spree. Corps and alliances that REALLY want to get rid of a POS badly will suck up the cost in losses in order to get the job done while it discourages them from blowing one up for the fun of it.
Well, thats my own thoughts on it anyway.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.07.13 16:27:00 -
[18]
Dreads will force POS owners to be part of a collective fighting force.
Tech II needs POS.
POS need Sovereignty.
Sovereignty needs an Alliance.
Alliance needs Dreads, POS, Tech II.....
The circle of Eve!
Welcome to the pain of our journey!
Note: If you own a POS and you want to be safe and cuddly be a part of an collective fighting force. There are many groups out there looking for all part of the circle!
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I am on alot of kill boards but the wrong column. I give the killmails to our enemys |
Ardor
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Posted - 2005.07.13 17:30:00 -
[19]
I am coming from a game called Mankind. In this game you had your own solarsystems with space and planet defences. The game was running non-stop and people could attack you 24/24 seven days a week. The majority of the attacks were launched when the enemie(s) was/were offline. Different time zones were not (always) the reason.
In Eve we now get something similar with Dreads and POS.
I hope the balance Dreads vs POS will be that an offline attack != win.
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SaorAlba
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Posted - 2005.07.13 18:32:00 -
[20]
I dread will never come alone, lol. When a dread is being send out to eliminate a POS it will come with a plan. It will come with highly skilled pilots supported by the allaince. The destruction of a single POS dropped in allaince space without permittion can only be done by a highly organized group of players. -G- allready removed several poorly constucted small and medium POSes within their space. Others have removed their POS on our requist. The proper tool has arrived and (skill) time is running out for the remaining persistent owners
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Gafton
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Posted - 2005.07.13 19:29:00 -
[21]
Does anyone know the time required to go into siege mode?
Is it the same time to come out of siege mode?
What range does a dread in siege have?
Any support ships that warp to the pos will be targeted when the pos cycles. I'm also unsure if a dread can tank a large pos setup correctly. If it can survive for 30 seconds it'l be fine, but if it cant, the attacking force is losing a lot.
Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead. |
Selak Zorander
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Posted - 2005.07.13 19:45:00 -
[22]
While i have not been able to find the information anywhere to confirm the exact bonuses that the siege module gives a dreadnaught, on the test server the bonuses included 2x HP repaired by armor repaires/shield boosters, and 0.5x cycle time on repairers/boosters.
given that, a armor tanked dread (besides having around 28000 armor hitpoints) can repair atleast 19200 hp ever 15 secs.
On the same token, a shield tanked dread could boost, 12800 shields every 5 seconds without a boost amplifer. With the boost amp it becomes 16640 shields(one 30% boost amplifer).
I think a dread could survive if it was not focus fired on by the POS (ie - did not have a member of the POS corp nearby that could change settings to make the POS only attack the dread).
If anyone has built a siege module from the blueprint (not the capitol siege module component but the "siege module I") and could confirm or deny any of the guesses as to what the bonuses are would be a great help.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.07.13 22:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: SengH on 13/07/2005 22:29:44
If you guys havent noticed... not all dreads are good at taking POSes. The way CCP designed them was perfect tbh. Each one has their specialized role.
Gallente Dread -> wtfpwnage in fleet combat suxs at taking down POSes though. Blasters + drones will turn the tide of any fleet battle.
Caldari Dread -> will WTFpwn any other dread out there and decent at taking out POSes suxs vs small ships though
Minmatar Dread -> will WTFpwn any POS out there as it can stay out of range and change dmg types to get around the resists decent vs other dreads and it'll suck vs anything smaller.
Amarr Dread-> a compromise between everything. Not the best but not the worst either.
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Ride Nunc
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Posted - 2005.07.14 04:11:00 -
[24]
A little math:
1 large tower.
4 large pulse lasers
4 XL Gamma Crystals
1 POS Tracking Array
= 44000 HP damage every 7.5 seconds - anywhere on the grid
Sum: Dead Dread in about 22.5 seconds
Add more guns, Citadel Launcher, EW for support ships..
You get the picture.
// please note my figures may be off a bit.. if they are ADD MORE GUNS |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.07.14 04:29:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/07/2005 04:29:46
Originally by: Ride Nunc
A little math:
1 large tower.
4 large pulse lasers
4 XL Gamma Crystals
1 POS Tracking Array
= 44000 HP damage every 7.5 seconds - anywhere on the grid
Sum: Dead Dread in about 22.5 seconds
Add more guns, Citadel Launcher, EW for support ships..
You get the picture.
// please note my figures may be off a bit.. if they are ADD MORE GUNS
The pulses won't hit if the dread is out of range. Tracking arrays only do 10% now.
--
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
chossuh
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Posted - 2005.07.14 07:00:00 -
[26]
Has anyone tested on TQ yet how far the guns actually activate and reach?
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.07.14 07:19:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 14/07/2005 07:19:33
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/07/2005 04:29:46
Originally by: Ride Nunc
A little math:
1 large tower.
4 large pulse lasers
4 XL Gamma Crystals
1 POS Tracking Array
= 44000 HP damage every 7.5 seconds - anywhere on the grid
Sum: Dead Dread in about 22.5 seconds
Add more guns, Citadel Launcher, EW for support ships..
You get the picture.
// please note my figures may be off a bit.. if they are ADD MORE GUNS
The pulses won't hit if the dread is out of range. Tracking arrays only do 10% now.
Personally I always thought they did 10%  the target painter strength skill always gave 5% effect but its attribute page initially showed 500% for instance.
Lack of a decimal point in the format used perhaps 
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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SaorAlba
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Posted - 2005.07.14 08:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ride Nunc
A little math:
1 large tower.
4 large pulse lasers
4 XL Gamma Crystals
1 POS Tracking Array
= 44000 HP damage every 7.5 seconds - anywhere on the grid
Sum: Dead Dread in about 22.5 seconds
Add more guns, Citadel Launcher, EW for support ships..
You get the picture.
// please note my figures may be off a bit.. if they are ADD MORE GUNS
I can understand you POS owners hope for the best. I am not suggesting it will be a walk over for the dread. However the dread is designed to be able to do it. Even in the case it can't, it will turn out to be due to a design fault. In that case CCP will fix this.
To think a large POS will smoke a dread under 30 sec is just wishfull thinking
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Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.07.14 09:08:00 -
[29]
to think a lone dread will wtf pwn a large pos properly setup is also a mistake. CCP has said that the advantage will always be to the pos, and that it will take some serious power to assualt it.
I'm not worried. A good defensive setup and proper supplies stored the pos will take a hell of a pounding and dish it out too.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.07.14 10:22:00 -
[30]
umm, did anyone even bother to calculate how many days 1-2 dreads must be shooting at a large POS to take it down?
I saw some calculations on their DPS, and even in siege mode, I'd say it takes more than 10 hours straight shooting at a med tower to get it down after reinforced.
but I'm just guessing, anyone with real numbers?
Originally by: Oveur
I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
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