Great chart. Thank you.

What % of new players stick with the game? Of the people who started within the past 2 or 3 years what % do you think stayed with the game?

Then think back 7 or 8 years. What % of the new players back then stuck with the game?

And not retread players who have been in and out of the game for a long time, rather brand new blood.

And as a side note.
The power of two accounts need not to be alts.

What % of new players stick with the game? Of the people who started within the past 2 or 3 years what % do you think stayed with the game?

Then think back 7 or 8 years. What % of the new players back then stuck with the game?

And not retread players who have been in and out of the game for a long time, rather brand new blood.

Actually, it's very obvious that you think this is an exceedingly low number. So low, in fact, that the tired old meme "Eve is Dying" is actually true. Obviously, the player retention efforts that CCP have put in place are so terrible that they have one of the only MMOs in the world with a positive growth rate for a ******* decade.

Seriously, if you have ideas for how to help the NPE, then spit them out. If you want to tell everyone you know how to run a game company better than CCP... well, you're free to try. Get some venture funding, start a company. Hire a bunch of people. Find out just how much you didn't know.

-Liang

Working on my second month here.

It looks like the average account age is 4 years?

Not sure I'll make it that long, but I am glad I came to try out EVE. Was on my to-do list a long while.

Actually, it's very obvious that you think this is an exceedingly low number. So low, in fact, that the tired old meme "Eve is Dying" is actually true. Obviously, the player retention efforts that CCP have put in place are so terrible that they have one of the only MMOs in the world with a positive growth rate for a ******* decade.

Working on my second month here.

It looks like the average account age is 4 years?

Not sure I'll make it that long, but I am glad I came to try out EVE. Was on my to-do list a long while.

Many people take breasts, sometimes long ones, . Thus, the average age is simply a median between the time they were all created. As more and more breasts are created, and kept, their size will shrink, or grow, accordingly with the ratio of account creation dates, not the period of time accounts are played for.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't information that can possibly be meaningful to you.

Nah I wouldn't say the average account age is 4 years. That seems really old.

-Liang

The rate of sub increases has slowed every time hi-sec gets safer

Therefore we should make hi-sec more dangerous and exciting to save EVE.

(logically)

Many people take breaks, sometimes long ones, and accounts don't get deleted for going inactive, or practically any other reason. Thus, the average account age is simply a median between the time they were all created. As more and more accounts are created, and kept, that age will shrink, or grow, accordingly with the ratio of account creation dates, not the period of time accounts are played for.

Nah I wouldn't say the average account age is 4 years. That seems really old.

-Liang

Actually, it's very obvious that you think this is an exceedingly low number. So low, in fact, that the tired old meme "Eve is Dying" is actually true. Obviously, the player retention efforts that CCP have put in place are so terrible that they have one of the only MMOs in the world with a positive growth rate for a ******* decade.

Seriously, if you have ideas for how to help the NPE, then spit them out. If you want to tell everyone you know how to run a game company better than CCP... well, you're free to try. Get some venture funding, start a company. Hire a bunch of people. Find out just how much you didn't know.

-Liang

eve is exclusive in the same way your mum's basement is.

Nah I wouldn't say the average account age is 4 years. That seems really old.

On a two week trial, your average player gets 'free stuff'' can griefed on his first day. Can flipped on his second day. Ganked on the third while mining in his noob mining ship. Gate ganked on the fifth day hauling his stuff to a market hub and robbed in a corp recruitment scam on the sixth. He stops logging in on the seventh day.

Mr Epeen

2009 is now 4 years ago. Bet you still think of 2009+ players as noobs though, I know I do :D

What % of new players stick with the game? Of the people who started within the past 2 or 3 years what % do you think stayed with the game?

Then think back 7 or 8 years. What % of the new players back then stuck with the game?

And not retread players who have been in and out of the game for a long time, rather brand new blood.

I've been talking to people and asking on help a bit. Seems like a lot of people under a million SP, and very few of them stay to develop their characters. Which is what the pretty girl coalition all said at the beginning of this thread.

The new players have all these grand plans and ideas that wont work. One I spoke w this morning wants to be a pirate. I said "go bump miners off of rocks and bump transports out of align at the gates. Then demand ransoms." She didnt seem to think that was the way to go, wanted to gun into lowsec and jump miners there =-P

I explained that the guys who do mine lowsec are not going to be caught. She wanted to be a gun totting pirate though...

Maybe CCP could offer FtP for players who agreed to mine in lowsec! lol, I might actually get in on that action =-)

It is.. for 51 days anyway.

Of course, it would just be the existing pirate corps using mining alts to lure in other "wanna-be" pirates, so they could blow up the wanna-be pirates.

Who would chose option 2?

PVP makes the game fun, but a lot depends on finding the right corp....which is hard starting out. I'd be interested knowing how many people start solo and keep on going solo for a goodly while (playing in general, not only PVP). I wouldn't have stuck round without having joined a corp early on.

Honestly, I doubt CCP knows.

They may track the % of accounts that stick around, but I can start a new account for 51 days for free.

I use my open buddy invite. Activate that new account with a PLEX provided to the new toon by my main, and then my main gets the month and the alt gets 51 days paid subscription. Within a day and a half, that new account can be flying a big industrial, hauling more ore to station than 2 hulks can mine. Within a couple weeks, that free account can be flying a mining barge. By that time, I can start yet another new free account using a PLEX for another of my main accounts... again, another 51 free days.



CCP has a hard time getting accounts to renew more than just that first month. DUH, I'd guess a very large % of the new accounts are just older players taking advantage of the 51 free days.

i think theres actually quite a few legit new players but they would have to go through all the IPs to really sort it out, not worth the effort

older characters are a bigger issue, CCP would have to track all the character transfers to see how many are still playing and in the hands of their original owner, again not worth the effort

I have been making an effort to convo people in help chat who have questions. There are a lot of new people there. People who have never player eve before. I don't think CCP has any problem getting players to try the game out. Do they stay? idk. If they do leave then why?

Anyone know why Bioware's recent SW MMO flopped? It looked really cool. Not my thing, but it seemed like they had a great idea.

Considering Eve Online has the worst community ever of any game anywhere, I'd say not that many.

lots of reasons why most leave, the biggest is the learning curve and right behind it is getting treated like crap with scams and suicide ganks, low sec market scams, some just wanted to try the game or cant afford it once the trial runs out

SWTOR had a lot of issues, its biggest was being almost an exact wow clone, pvp was all about grinding for pvp gear and there really wasnt much for end game content. server population was also a huge issue they had like 200 servers at launch which resulted in people being very spread out and unable to find groups. i know they have done a lot of patching but not sure if its much better

1 thing SWTOR was really great for was the story, they did an amazing job in that department but really thats the only good thing i can say about the game and now that its f2p its worth downloading just to run through the storys

Well that is the question. Are new players looking for a "good" community? Do people want a memepark where everything is safe? Bioware's latest experiment might be worth looking at here.

So WTF, what do people really want? What will they come back for? What will they spend their money on, and their time, and tell their friends about? Do people leave Eve because they got screwed, schooled and lost their PLEX. Or do they leave for some other reason?

Idk, retention is not what it could be, maybe it is what it should be though. To keep the game smashrock rough and challenging. Are you going to stay?

Who the f*ck cares if new players stay is a better question. You're all to manly, strokin the epeen and kill mail whoring. For anyone who plays this to give a raped goats a$$ about new players coming or going is pure lulz.

Oh and actually eve is not a game of skill it never was.....it's a game of senority.

Oh and actually eve is not a game of skill it never was.....it's a game of senority.

There is a lot of convo here in the forums that really push the idea that players who are not in a PC corp should suffer for it, mostly because player corps are seeking to have an advantage for themselves. It has nothing to do with what is best for the game or best for the players or best for CCP.

So by all means support the game that you like to play, but please don't assume that is the game that is best for everyone.

Considering Eve Online has the worst community ever of any game anywhere, I'd say not that many.

So thats why null is a numbers game and blob warfare prevails. Suddenly it's all much clearer, I had no idea individual skill was such a deciding factor. The skilling system encourages an afk community.

I hate gear grind myself, I'm really surprised Bioware went that route.

As for no end content, I can't believe that people wanted "end content" in the first 3 months of game play. *I'm not arguing with you, I've heard that myself, months ago actually. I'm just incredulous about it is all. The other thing is that Eve has no well defined end content either.

I wonder if some end content would help Eve?

Google "league of legends community" and see what the google suggestion is: "league of legends community is terrible". For Eve Online it's "spotlight", "forums", "service". Then it goes on to go into several constructive pages that help build up the community.

You're demonstrably wrong. :)

-Liang

Without new players, and new ideas that have the potential to succeed, the simulation becomes meaningless, the challenge becomes a game against other gamers, and not a sandbox with endless possibility.

true and false, eve has both the best and worst, people generally treat their friends really well but will try to screw over others at every chance but then you also have the people giving up loads of isk helping new players, usually only for people to somehow screw that new player out of said isk

lol These forums prove you wrong liang. Did you just get here and why do you sign every mfing post.

-travito

..

for Liang about "pure pvp game"

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2462718#post2462718

"We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions."

So thats why null is a numbers game and blob warfare prevails. Suddenly it's all much clearer, I had no idea individual skill was such a deciding factor. The skilling system encourages an afk community.

This is interesting, and gets to the heart of why you misunderstand Eve's appeal to me. You see, the game has always been primarily a game against other gamers. That is its source of endless possibility. It will be that regardless of the existence (or non existence!) of new players, because all it depends on is the existence of players. That's not to say new players aren't important or even vital... but they are not the heart of the game. They're the growth of the game and the mitigation against natural and expected churn.

-Liang

This is indeed the core of our differences. It sounds like you want a "game" whereas I am content with a sandbox.


*I fixed your quote

I think you have it backwards. Or a misunderstanding.

After 10 years, EVE has "positive growth" and thus new player retention is fine? Positive growth towards what?! The game hasn't even broken a 500k barrier! And that's with ZERO competition in a decade.

[clip]
Meanwhile, other MMOs have as many players as EVE has in total, only concurrently online, and before the game even goes live! Yep, Guild Wars 2 for example had over 440k concurrent users on its early access weekend before the game hit the stores, that was just pre-orders.

Anyone know why Bioware's recent SW MMO flopped? It looked really cool. Not my thing, but it seemed like they had a great idea.

It was a WoW clone which people knew even before it had launched. Do you have to ask? Sure it has cool stories, voice acting, some original stuff like companions, but at the end of the day its a WoW clone.

Its interesting that the WoW theme is played out. I wonder what the next big movement will be. Player created content maybe!

]If you want growth[/i], that has to change. But if you want to continue to see the game stagnate until something better comes along and finally blows it out of the water? Sure, why not, I guess. And we can all continue patting ourselves on the shoulder and reminding ourselves that EVE has "positive growth" and resist any change.

God I'm so tired of you "positive growth" guys! I mean, good lord!

After 10 years, EVE has "positive growth" and thus new player retention is fine? Positive growth towards what?! The game hasn't even broken a 500k barrier! ...... all we have to show for it is sub-500k user base? And you guys think that's good?
....... Sure, why not, I guess. And we can all continue patting ourselves on the shoulder and reminding ourselves that EVE has "positive growth" and resist any change.

i don't mind reasonable slow cautious progress because that's almost always the best course, but the things you types want are just absurd and lead to unintended consequences.

For 10 years people like this have been proclaiming the end of EVE because EVE doesn't have 30 million subs, and yet, despite every naysayer, EVE is still here.

Despite EVERY...SINGLE...EVE-KILLER

---

I always like to get to the rock bottom of other people's motivations, and I'll suggest there are 2 deep seated psychological factors at play with these "change EVE" types.

#1. Fear of loss: ...

#2. Boredom and personal desire for change: ...

People are complex so their are probably other factors. But the bottom line is that these people are unhappy and they think "change" will make them happy. Change will only make them happy for a few minutes, then it becomes the new status quo to rebel against....

What % of new players stick with the game? Of the people who started within the past 2 or 3 years what % do you think stayed with the game?

Then think back 7 or 8 years. What % of the new players back then stuck with the game?

And not retread players who have been in and out of the game for a long time, rather brand new blood.

To start you should throw up a survey and ask when people started playing then compare that to the current year.

...I always like to get to the rock bottom of other people's motivations...

It can be argued that the "no change crowd" are just the other side of the same coin though. They fear any change that might upset the balance because they like their place in Eve. And as people they probably don't feel as though they have a lot of power or control, so giving it up in Eve is out of the question.

I thought about that, but it seems like the forums are more frequented by older players.

Its a tough piece of data to nail down, and sometimes gut instinct, especially if you have a good sample, can be a more accurate reflection of the value.

As an aside; from my observation you like to brag about your position in the game and use your in game success to justify misconceptions and to make attacks on others in these forums. Nothing wrong with that, but don't confuse it with making an actual argument or with being right.

[
It can be argued that the "no change crowd" are just the other side of the same coin though. They fear any change that might upset the balance because they like their place in Eve. And as people they probably don't feel as though they have a lot of power or control, so giving it up in Eve is out of the question.

Discussing motives just leads to confrontation and misunderstanding.

You talk like Eve hasn't changed in 10 years. That's just not true. Eve will continue to grow and change with every expansion. Those changes are not going to throw the whole thing off balance and send everyone hurtling off to StarTrek. There's plenty of room in Eve for many different playstyles.

There are a few defining factors and some problems with Eve:

Players in Eve must be able to affect one another. Any instance where they cannot is counter to the sandbox.

Power creep is very significant in that it isolates different levels of player. The consequences of very powerful characters making mistakes is greatly mitigated by their position in the game. And yet one of the arguments from older players is that newer players and highsec players have too many protections that mitigate the mistakes of those players.

You can't argue for one side and not the other. Either the playing field needs a bit of leveling or it doesn't. If highsec indy and NPC corps need a nerf because they make certain players virtually immune to other players, and that immunity is counter to Eve, then all immunity must be nerfed.

So, the question is: would Rage make more money if it were a widely available casual game? Should Rage radically modify the game to improve conversion and retention amongst The Almighty Casual user? All evidence points to a resounding no. Doing this would destroy the game that they've built. We've seen that kind of move executed time and again throughout the gaming industry and I'm not aware of any time that the gambit has been successful.

So why is Rage successful then? Well, because they have a specific type of player that they cater to and thoroughly own a corner of the market that they serve better than anyone else. People who want to participate in a competitive game like Rage ultimately end up playing Rage instead of one of the countless clones.


-Liang

I agree with you that Eve is best as a nitch game, but this isnGÇÖt the same nitch that it was in the beginning.

Can you briefly summarize what you think does or does not need to change Corey? You seem to say a lot of words in an effort to elicit a response but I just can't tell what you're driving at. Out with it, I say.

-Liang

That's the best chuckle I've had in a while. Thank you for that Liang.

Many people who used to be in Eve are no longer here. New players come and go. Eve has changed.

I'm not sure that I'd call Eve a niche game anymore. It's got more subs than popular than many "mainstream" MMOs, but seems to have the longevity to make it work.

An approach to guesstimate a related question:

From Diagoras twitters we know about 8.2 million characters existed in the beginning of 2012.
From past QENs we know that the average number of characters per account is 2.1, meaning that about 3.9 million accounts were ever created. Putting that into perspective with the touted 450k active subscriptions means that about 11.5% of all accounts ever created are active.

PS.: The sequential character ID suggests that about 93 million characters were created, but this is obviously off for some reason. Probably the ID is incremented every time someone enters the character creator, regardless if he finishes the process or not.

Honestly, I doubt CCP knows.

They may track the % of accounts that stick around, but I can start a new account for 51 days for free.

I use my open buddy invite. Activate that new account with a PLEX provided to the new toon by my main, and then my main gets the month and the alt gets 51 days paid subscription. Within a day and a half, that new account can be flying a big industrial, hauling more ore to station than 2 hulks can mine. Within a couple weeks, that free account can be flying a mining barge. By that time, I can start yet another new free account using a PLEX for another of my main accounts... again, another 51 free days.



CCP has a hard time getting accounts to renew more than just that first month. DUH, I'd guess a very large % of the new accounts are just older players taking advantage of the 51 free days.

Is it just me or does anyone find funnythat the guy with the highest SP in game does not have T2 Sentries?

I've always chosen option 3: doing industry in a non-stupid way. Honestly I can't imagine how someone can sign up for a pure PVP game and not expect to have to defend their industry assets from PVP people? When I first signed up for Eve I wanted to be "the brains behind the brawn" - but at no point did I want to be a wimp ass carebear hiding from PVP all the time.

Man up and use your brain a bit.

-Liang

Ed: And before you go "LOL LOW SUCK PIRATE HATES ALL INDUSTRY" on me, please bear in mind that I ran a WH corp for a long time. I've also done missions and done industry all the way from basic T1 mods to capital, T2, and T3 production. It's a PVP game. Treat it as such.

Eve is a sci-fi business simulator, PVP is an aspect of it, but far from the entire game. It's all about the money.