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Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
465
   |
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
A really good article I wanted to share that partly explains the momentum shift to Caldari/Amarr.
http://themittani.com/features/apathy-swings-pendulum
I especially liked the psychology concept that was covered; "The Diffusion of Responsibility"
Quote:This problem is compounded by the vermin I described in my (now slightly prophetic) previous piece. The plex farmers and plex leechers benefit greatly from a higher tier, however that benefit is diminished if they actually pay into the system to maintain it. Instead they rely on a few workhorse groups within the militia to fight over, take, and pump LP into systems so that they can stay fat and happy. The people who benefit the most are those who provide the least for others. This causes a natural fracture point as those who fight for control are driven towards anger and apathy. In psychology they call this The Diffusion of Responsibility: in a system where anyone can contribute towards success, but no one is accounted for it, very few will step up and bear the weight of the many.
Many individuals in Frogland have wondered why Gallente have slipped to T2 WZ Ctrl when they can so easily hold T3. I will certainly give credit to corps like Liandri and Templis who have plexed their minds out. After some private conversations and emails, I believe there is a certain apathy that many of the workhorse corps/individuals have in Gallente. They no longer wish to carry the load for warzone control. I can't blame them.
A few individuals have tried rallying the troops to hold T3 but it seems no one really cares. I hope we do not slip into T1 because it will be a major uphill climb and have adverse affects on recruitment drives and attracting new blood. Many of the corps who rely on new players will suffer major attrition. Long time vets can sustain themselves but the newer players will suffer the most.
It's time for new blood to take over.
In the end, it's nice to see new blood entering on all sides. It seems every militia now has over 4K players in it and that's hopefully alot more pew and player driven content.
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve . |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
160
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 23:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hey, thanks for the shout-out!
Aideron Robotics is hiring for the Gallente Federation war effort! https://www.aideronrobotics.com/wiki/Applying |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
351
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 00:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:A few individuals have tried rallying the troops to hold T3 but it seems no one really cares. I hope we do not slip into T1 because it will be a major uphill climb and have adverse affects on recruitment drives and attracting new blood.
When Caldari were at T1, I didn't see it as a huge deal, and I still don't see it as one if Gallente slip to T1. Personally, I'm quite happy with T1 for a while, it will let the millions of LP I have stored rise in value. T1 still makes ISK, it's not like the penalty we used to have with ISK price increases.
Even if we slip into T1, getting back to T2 is pretty easy when people care to push for it again. The Caldari have an easier time getting large alliance recruits since Caldari is such a popular mission running race (meaning their rebound from T1 isn't something that would happen as easily on the Gallente side), but even at T1 the ISK still flows, you can make enough to pvp.
Personally - I pushed for occupancy, we got all the systems, I was very happy to stop that effort as soon as the 24 hour mark passed. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
192
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm not here to post anything constructive.
I just wanna talk about Deens new hair do.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1029
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:I'm not here to post anything constructive.
I just wanna talk about Deens new hair do. Uggh. Looks like a lesbian Princess Nexxalla wannabe.
|
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 03:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:I'm not here to post anything constructive.
I just wanna talk about Deens new hair do. Uggh. Looks like a lesbian Princess Nexxalla wannabe.
I was thinking it was a bit Nexx like too - I was wondering if the poverty of Tier2 means Gallente toons are getting crappier hair cuts to reflect their dive into poverty.
Now I know why all the overpriced crap I put on the market in Eha hasn't sold. Too busy spending all your isk on hair cuts.
X Gal - Plz dude - It's been a few months now and It's time to put ur goggles back on.
Am I the only Caldari not banned from the forums? 
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
352
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 06:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Am I the only Caldari not banned from the forums?
I lol'd :D
I was going to put down Hidden Snake, but he's not even Caldari :) |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1483
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 06:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
of course. Amarr could have tier 4 already for over a week, its not like there are not enough systems, its because they are not maxed out. Its this a bad thing? I am not sure or at least i personally don't care much about the tier as long its not tier1. Plexing isn't very exciting, donating stuff just to be able to plex for more lp isn't very encouraging for the individual. (Sometimes i get the impression that very few in FW outside the core corps actually know when the next tier can be actually reached or not - but this is primarily a UI issue)
FW is probably more interesting when both factions are in a balanced state, which would be between tier 2 and 3. This has the least maintenance overhead and allows good isk making for pvp (for those who are here for the explosions at least). If it runs out of balance all the farming starts and ... well putting it back to balance is a lot of pve effort from the weaker side.
a eve-style bounty system (done)-á
dust boarding parties
You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
518
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 08:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Or like all aspiring and established shrinks/mindbenders/"psychologist" the whole thing is a desperate reach for relevancy by a practitioner of a pseudo-science that does so want to be considered a 'real boy'.
Allow me to explain the shifts, by using old-school common sense without the same claim of relevancy by quoting that which is not quite a science:
In FW, the few earnest can easily hold up the many leeches, LP generated is more than sufficient to counter the silly 'diminishing returns' that CCP were so proud to include.
Gallente stopped because their balls fell off from being denied the exercise appropriate to keep those marvellous products of evolution in tip-top shape .. if one wants/needs to fight in a war in order to prove oneself, yet can only find wooden ducks in a tent the interest in said war wanes. It is a simple matter of "not what it said on the tin"
Flip that for the Shakorites. They didn't want conflict or the feeling of having to do anything to get 'their due'. Years of having the vast majority of systems in play hidden behind a bottleneck and thus "safe" without having to do a damn thing, benefiting from a much healthier market due to being better situated in relation to hub and enjoying a steady, high demand for their product due to trending FoTY/Winmatar made them into what is (in less polite society) called 'sponges'.
Tiericide has proven devastating for their market value as Winmatar is being whittled away, the previously safe 'Corn fields of Iowa' (far from border, get it?  ) are anything but and their healthy markets are lost to them in accordance with rules regarding docking rights.
-Or-
The Caldari/Amarr farmhand hunters became too much of a nuisance and started carrying too many points for the alt horde to make ISK hand over fist any more.
-Or-
Markets became too depressed and stockpiles of items grew too large, so farmers are merely rotating fields as is proper if ones aim is to maintain a high steady output.
Personally think has most to do with that last line. Pure greed, nothing more nothing less.
|
Dread Operative
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 08:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
The "cashout" was the worst. I got extremely tired of donating 500+k to upgrade 5 systems so the farmers could cash out... |
Takanuro
The Amarrian Expendables
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 09:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:A few individuals have tried rallying the troops to hold T3 but it seems no one really cares. I hope we do not slip into T1 because it will be a major uphill climb and have adverse affects on recruitment drives and attracting new blood. When Caldari were at T1, I didn't see it as a huge deal, and I still don't see it as one if Gallente slip to T1. Personally, I'm quite happy with T1 for a while, it will let the millions of LP I have stored rise in value. T1 still makes ISK, it's not like the penalty we used to have with ISK price increases. Even if we slip into T1, getting back to T2 is pretty easy when people care to push for it again. The Caldari have an easier time getting large alliance recruits since Caldari is such a popular mission running race (meaning their rebound from T1 isn't something that would happen as easily on the Gallente side), but even at T1 the ISK still flows, you can make enough to pvp. Personally - I pushed for occupancy, we got all the systems, I was very happy to stop that effort as soon as the 24 hour mark passed.
The turning of the tides is interesting. Down here in Amarr space, when we hit T3 with a comfortable margin it suddenly became almost impossible to get the militia to bash any hubs that became vulnerable. There are two system that's minnies now have defended into the 70's that we did have vulnerable.
On hitting T3 it seems many just went into mission carebearing mode or had plexing fatigue from the effort it took to flip 25+ systems during that time we had the upper hand in the WZ.
Minnies are now outplexing us daily and have flipped 5 systems without us a having a flip response. Will be interesting if we take Hof today, or it might be another 5 flips by the minnies without a response from us. Will be interesting to see what happens if/when we are pushed back into a T2 only position.
Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
The Amarrian Expendables are Recruiting |
The RUS Hunter
The WIzards of the Eyes
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 10:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:The "cashout" was the worst. I got extremely tired of donating 500+k to upgrade 5 systems so the farmers could cash out...
It was really funny being in SLAPD and hearing all the general miltia ask for dumps when we were hoarding LP and crashing markets. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
236
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 10:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
So basically CCP did a good job in rebalancing FW by creating a pendulum which always swings back and forth. |
Commissar Veldt
Progressive State
State Section 9
31
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 11:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:I'm not here to post anything constructive.
I just wanna talk about Deens new hair do. Uggh. Looks like a lesbian Princess Nexxalla wannabe.
Nexxalla's lesbian twin? Mmmmm... **Commissar Veldt foams at the mouth and goes all weak at the knees**
Some good points in that link and in OP. Good to see some FW forum action which doesnt involve the usual b*llocks 'we iz b3tter thn Urz mil1tiazzzzzzz!!!!11111 U iz allllll farm3rzzzzzzztrofltrofl'
I suspect the Cal/Gal warzone will settle and stop shifting soon and we will get back to some kind of equilibrium (at least the closest thing you can get to that in FW). Meaning both factions will have well established home systems, clearly defined borders for warzones etc...
At least thats what I keep telling myself. |
Commissar Veldt
Progressive State
State Section 9
31
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 11:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Markets became too depressed and stockpiles of items grew too large, so farmers are merely rotating fields as is proper if ones aim is to maintain a high steady output.
Or just this
|
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1786
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 12:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meditril wrote:So basically CCP did a good job in rebalancing FW by creating a pendulum which always swings back and forth.
No, a pendulum system is terrible because it means that no side can really win, so there's literally no reason whatsoever for anyone but the farmers to want one side to get a higher tier level than the other.
Mane 614
|
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
236
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Meditril wrote:So basically CCP did a good job in rebalancing FW by creating a pendulum which always swings back and forth. No, a pendulum system is terrible because it means that no side can really win, so there's literally no reason whatsoever for anyone but the farmers to want one side to get a higher tier level than the other.
This is a game which is intended to never end. Therefore it has to be impossible for any side to win, otherwise the game would end. What in your opinion should happen when one side completely conquers all enemy FW systems and achieves Tier 5? Should faction warefare end for those two? No, one faction gets a medal that's all. Then people get bored and go somewhere else until after some time a new generation will spawn which will go for it. And the cycle of life will start over again. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Caldari State Capturing
423
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:X Gallentius wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:I'm not here to post anything constructive.
I just wanna talk about Deens new hair do. Uggh. Looks like a lesbian Princess Nexxalla wannabe. I was thinking it was a bit Nexx like too - I was wondering if the poverty of Tier2 means Gallente toons are getting crappier hair cuts to reflect their dive into poverty. Now I know why all the overpriced crap I put on the market in Eha hasn't sold. Too busy spending all your isk on hair cuts. X Gal - Plz dude - It's been a few months now and It's time to put ur goggles back on. Am I the only Caldari not banned from the forums?
You need to increase your butthurt level by about 37 grades of butthurtery before you can achieve banned status.
Project Cerberus is recruiting for the US Timezone, click here |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
271
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Damn girl! That's some sexy hair!
QCATs is recruiting
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
353
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Takanuro wrote:On hitting T3 it seems many just went into mission carebearing mode or had plexing fatigue from the effort it took to flip 25+ systems during that time we had the upper hand in the WZ.
I think plexing fatigue will be the balancing factor in the long run, no matter which side. |
Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
468
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
My sexy hairdo aside, a few additional thoughts;
Andreus Ixiris wrote:No, a pendulum system is terrible because it means that no side can really win, so there's literally no reason whatsoever for anyone but the farmers to want one side to get a higher tier level than the other.
Don't focus too much on higher tiers and "winning". Gallente "won" a few weeks ago and we felt the 'loss' with no WTs around for a few weeks. It got quite boring.
--Plexing Fatigue--
AKA sov grind fatigue. It is quite real. This contributes to the apathy on the Gal side. Grinding through the remaining few systems to get the medal was painful. The only thing more painful than the grind was the semi-public fleets and the amount of spazzes on comms. I'm glad those days are over because it definitely wore out alot of FCs and grunts.
Apathy isn't just limited to the Gallente though. The same goes for the Caldari as well. Like the Amarr, they have exerted alot of energy into grinding through 40+ systems in the past month. That amount of plexing takes a huge mental toll on anyone including battled hardened veterans. The wear and tear of sov grind has shown even for Caldari as there have been a couple of occasions when 3-5 systems have been vulnerable for 48 hour time period but they never bothered to bust the ihub. I can only imagine that their FCs and grunts are tired of doing yet another ihub bash that will eventually be taken back soonish.
As I recently completed my one year anniversary in FW, I realize that being part of a never ending war does require a certain apathetic attitude. You care but you don't care at the same time. One must be very Zen-like in this never ending war. Flow like water my friend. I believe Bruce Lee and his philosophy could survive in FW
And a shout out to fresh faces on the Caldari side such as 700-man alliance, Brosefs . They are one of the few organizations that will actually undock in something bigger than frigs/dessies fleet comps and give us a fight. I wish more corps and alliances would take a cue from these guys and have the courage to fight on gates or belts rather than hiding behind the security of a plex. That is certainly a group who is trying to learn how to pew rather than subject themselves to the daily grind of button spinning.
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve . |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1786
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Don't focus too much on higher tiers and "winning". Gallente "won" a few weeks ago and we felt the 'loss' with no WTs around for a few weeks. It got quite boring.
Which is precisely my point. The Gallente militia's "reward" (and I cannot express just how large the airquote hand guesture I'm making at the present time actually is with any words that exist in a human dictionary) for capturing literally every Caldari system in FW was...
Wait for it.
Wait for it.
Are you still waiting for it?
"Yeah, now you get to lose!"
**** that.
Mane 614
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
354
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:Don't focus too much on higher tiers and "winning". Gallente "won" a few weeks ago and we felt the 'loss' with no WTs around for a few weeks. It got quite boring. Which is precisely my point. The Gallente militia's "reward" (and I cannot express just how large the airquote hand guesture I'm making at the present time actually is with any words that exist in a human dictionary) for capturing literally every Caldari system in FW was... Wait for it. Wait for it. Are you still waiting for it? "Yeah, now you get to lose!" **** that.
For me, the reward was
- Being able to say we did it.
- Getting the medal.
Basically, just the achievement in and of itself was the reward. |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
828
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 21:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
The taxes seem to be a bigger issue than I first thought.
Does anyone know the actual detailed calculations on this?
I hope the interest in tiers/occupancy doesn't completely die off to the pre inferno - but with station lockouts.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
468
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 21:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:Don't focus too much on higher tiers and "winning". Gallente "won" a few weeks ago and we felt the 'loss' with no WTs around for a few weeks. It got quite boring. Which is precisely my point. The Gallente militia's "reward" (and I cannot express just how large the airquote hand guesture I'm making at the present time actually is with any words that exist in a human dictionary) for capturing literally every Caldari system in FW was... Wait for it. Wait for it. Are you still waiting for it? "Yeah, now you get to lose!" **** that.
Right. So if I read between the lines, you want something that is rewarding and fulfilling? Instead of focusing on a tangible reward for accomplishing the ultimate end game (100% WZ Ctrl), try shifting your focus to the personal goals of yours and your corp. Not that of the militia. For me, my personal goals entering FW was
1) Be a better pew pewer
2) Learn to FC
As a director for my corp, my goals are
1) To help corpmates become better at fleet and individual pvp.
And you know what? I've accomplished all three goals to some degree and continue down that journey. And even if Gallente was down to a handful of systems, I would still be quite happy as long as I'm still accomplishing all three of those goals which I find very rewarding and fulfilling. And not to mention the constant week to week collaboration that I do with my fellow allies on all sorts of micro objectives.
I know alot of Cal Mil pilots left FW or unsubbed when CCP released the emergency Fast Foward Patch because it disrupted their 'end game' of accomplishing complete warzone control. To me, that says those pilots really didn't have sustainable goals that went beyond the end game. If they did, they would still be around trying to reach those goals.
I can't help but think how many corps would be better pvp corps and not "plexing corps" if they stopped spinning so many buttons. Don't get me wrong. I believe button spinning is important to holding systems ,maintaining a healthy warzone control, and getting fights. But it's not the end all and be all. There is alot of content outside of the sov-war grind. There are things far more gratifying than the tangible rewards that some of us are demanding out of the game designers.
Just a thought.
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve . |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Caldari State Capturing
425
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:
1) Be a better pew pewer
For the low low price of 5 billion isk (or alternatively, get aerillis to post a video of him doing the gangnam style dance) I will teach you how to fly hookbills properly and not lose them to merlins 
Project Cerberus is recruiting for the US Timezone, click here |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
193
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 23:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:
1) Be a better pew pewer
For the low low price of 5 billion isk (or alternatively, get aerillis to post a video of him doing the gangnam style dance) I will teach you how to fly hookbills properly and not lose them to merlins
Toooooo spensive.
Don't trust Super Chair (Double agent spai etc etc) and spend your isk with someone reputable.
My service is a bit different but offers much better value:
I'll teach you how to lose hookbills to every ship in eve for a bargain price of only 1bil. (I have excellent experience at losing hookbills - no one is better at it)
Hair style consultancy services: 2 bil.
Goggle fitting: 2 bil. (+ 1 x Rail Comet)
Posting irrelevant junk in Deens threads and crapping up the W&T part of the forums even further - priceless.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
468
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 23:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
How about I give each of you 1M isk to just stop flying hookbills alltogether?
High Five. Yeah!
C'est La Eve . |
Tiffany Starr
State Protectorate
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 01:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
LOL@all the lies and excuses on this thread...
The reason that Gallente were able to achieve T3/T4 so easily was that the CCP Ninja Patch gifted them 70+ systems, which barely needed to be upgraded to maintain T3. Meanwhile, Caldari were left with a feeble 20 or so systems that needed to be heavily upgraded just to hold T2. Once Caldari hit T1, many of the (already massively outnumbered) PVP alliances simply left militia altogether.
Now that Ev0ke evened the odds, the same Gallente who gloated about blobbing their way to free LP and 'total dominance'(LOL!) are faced with the harsh reality that they aren't getting a free ride anymore and will most likely hit T1. I realise this must be very upsetting for them.
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
194
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 02:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:How about I give each of you 1B isk to just stop flying hookbills alltogether?
You have a deal.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
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