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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Merouk Baas
523
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
Shrug, waiting for the medical-themed expansion. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
796
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Let me put it this way, which makes more sense? I understand that having cheap 'foreverclean clones' for null pvp appears desirable but it's ultimately a tax on implants and nothing else
Implants already cost ISK, there's no need or reason to tax them again
That is, there is a reason to change clone costing, but there is no reason to tax implants |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
780
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
you know i would not mind seeing insurance for implants. i think this is what ranger1 is calling for.
that with player made and marketable clones would be epic!
edit: i would not have good insurance for sets of implants just like tech II insurance is not worth the isk investment. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Velarra
194
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Posted - 2013.02.09 02:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
Clone Costs:
- Clone - Attribute implant(s) - "Home" station - (with or without medical services). |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2636
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 03:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
Flat clone costs and the removal of standings requirements for jump clones in high sec. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
253
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 03:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Flat clone costs and the removal of standings requirements for jump clones in high sec.
Close. But in that scenario it would be better to remove clone cost altogether.
Anything that is reasonable for a very new player will be insignificant to a player with several months - 10years in game. Vice versa, any flat cost that is noticable by a vet will be way too high for new players.
-We currently have a greater than linear rate of ISK/SP Saved increase as we progress up the ranks.
-At least a linear progression would hold some logical sense (same isk/SP rate)
-The benefit, or effects that translate, from high SP players into any one (or even a given set) of ship hulls or player activites from the whole SP lot is usually very small. If we were to use this as the basis for a cost/benefit analysis it would indicate that a less than linear progression tapering off to an eventual SP cap would make the most sense.
At what SP level and what cost it should taper off is the best question to ask. And I think it will likely come down to an arbitrary decision, unless someone can point to any known reasoning behind established clone costs for a given ISK/SP Saved
I say: once you hit 60mil SP the costs start rising at a much lower rate and that anyone over 120mil SP clone costs are capped.
I'd say:
10mil SP saved = 500k isk clone cost 20mil SP saved = 1M isk 40mil SP saved = 2M isk 60mil SP saved = 3M isk 80mil SP saved = 3.5M isk 100mil SP saved = 4M isk 120mil SP and up = 5M isk
This is close to current for the initial linear progression. We cap out at 5M isk..
high enough to keep people from spamming themselves
low enough that any real cost for loss is linked to the combat/attrib implants, the ship hull and the modules... all items influenced by the player driven market.
For comaprison, if we just accepted a linear progression built on the current system, the above would look like:
10mil SP saved = 500k isk 60mil SP saved = 3M isk 120mil SP saved = 6M isk 200mil SP saved = 10M isk
still pretty reasonable.
To view the absurdity that is our status quo:
10mil SP saved = ~500k isk 60mil SP saved = ~10M isk 120mil SP saved = ~30M isk 200mil SP saved = ~65mil
Crazy. Somewhere around 50mil SP - 100mil SP the rate of increase spikes 3-fold and then tapers back to it's greater than linear rate
There are graphs somewhere that someone did on this years ago, I cba to find them though because everyone laughed at me when I brought this up in '09 / '10
WELL ITS TIME TO PAY TEH FIDDLER FORUMS! YOU WILL RUE THE DAY! I TOLD YOU SO!! HISTROY HAS NAMED ME THE WINNER1!
/maniacal laughter |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3790
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Posted - 2013.02.09 05:34:00 -
[67] - Quote
The game needs more isk sinks, not less. If you keep clone costs the same but turn them into an insurance that would probably increase the sink, especially for players who do things like mission running in highsec. In other words, players that are highly unlikely to actually lose pods, but undock and so feel compelled to stay covered just in case. Manufacturing, pricechecking alts, cyno alts, etc. that don't undock would not be affected by this change since they have no reason to buy clone upgrades as they are never in danger of getting podded or they don't have enough skillpoints to need clone upgrades. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
253
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 05:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:The game needs more isk sinks, not less.
This is why we should have a 5mil isk cost just to log in.
And every market order should have a 10% tax that disappears into a hole.
And csaa charges should increase 10 fold and no one can turn them off.
The difference between smart game mechanics and arbitrary ones are just that.
You make an argument for clone insurance, but you don't articulate what the mechanic actually is (the current system could be viewed as insurance already) or what shift of impact you expect.
You only cite two player scenarios where your solution does nothing different than the current system.
The point isn't to change it for the sake of changing something, they are looking to improve mechanics.
What exactly is your idea and how would it make eve 'better'? Is it to just make clones expire with time? If no, why, specifically, is it better or any different than the current system they are unhappy with?
Why should we pursue an isk sink to the clone and not elsewhere? Should we just arbitrarily increase isk costs across the board? What is the problem we are fixing and shouldn't that problem be address at it's source instead of arbitrarily changing other game mechanics in hope of economic balance?
How many more isk sinks does the game "need"? How big should they be? Who should they impact the most?
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3791
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 05:57:00 -
[69] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:You make an argument for clone insurance, but you don't articulate what the mechanic actually is That might be because if I did so, I'd be repeating myself, since I did just that in an earlier post in this thread. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
253
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 06:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:You make an argument for clone insurance, but you don't articulate what the mechanic actually is That might be because if I did so, I'd be repeating myself, since I did just that in an earlier post in this thread.
my bad, i'm stupid. post edited
but I still don't understand, because that system would not be more of an isk sink? |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3791
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 06:19:00 -
[71] - Quote
It would potentially be more of an isk sink because of the sheer number of players who don't lose pods on a regular basis. Instead of buying a clone and forgetting about it until the next time they have to upgrade, they'll have to buy a new clone once every insurance period and when they have to upgrade if they want to stay covered. Obviously this would decrease the sink for PVP'ers, but overall it evens things out across the board and doesn't arbitrarily punish people who do their PVP in areas of space where either bubbles are allowed or smartbombs are much more common.
Removing clone costs entirely wouldn't be a good idea because that would remove an isk sink, which is needed because of the inflation in the game (the sinks don't come anywhere close to balancing the amount of isk pouring into the game from things like mission bounties). Keeping clone costs flat across the board isn't a good idea either because what would be a manageable clone cost for a new player would be absolutely trivial to someone with a lot of skillpoints, and a meaningful cost for someone with a lot of skillpoints would be far too much for a new player to bear. And reducing clone costs at the higher levels doesn't address the issue that it still unfairly affects those who do their PVP in certain areas of the game.
As far as using alts to spam into combat, ship losses are why this isn't done on a regular basis, at the lower tiers clone costs are fairly trivial anyway if you're determined to spam ships into combat. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3378
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 06:34:00 -
[72] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:As far as using alts to spam into combat, ship losses are why this isn't done on a regular basis, at the lower tiers clone costs are fairly trivial anyway if you're determined to spam ships into combat. Of course, we're the ones who have newbies in ships which can be spammed into combat Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3794
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 07:08:00 -
[73] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:As far as using alts to spam into combat, ship losses are why this isn't done on a regular basis, at the lower tiers clone costs are fairly trivial anyway if you're determined to spam ships into combat. Of course, we're the ones who have newbies in ships which can be spammed into combat You are... RAZOR isn't as newbie friendly. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
253
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 07:15:00 -
[74] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It would potentially be more of an isk sink because of the sheer number of players who don't lose pods on a regular basis. Instead of buying a clone and forgetting about it until the next time they have to upgrade, they'll have to buy a new clone once every insurance period and when they have to upgrade if they want to stay covered. Obviously this would decrease the sink for PVP'ers, but overall it evens things out across the board and doesn't arbitrarily punish people who do their PVP in areas of space where either bubbles are allowed or smartbombs are much more common.
Removing clone costs entirely wouldn't be a good idea because that would remove an isk sink, which is needed because of the inflation in the game (the sinks don't come anywhere close to balancing the amount of isk pouring into the game from things like mission bounties). Keeping clone costs flat across the board isn't a good idea either because what would be a manageable clone cost for a new player would be absolutely trivial to someone with a lot of skillpoints, and a meaningful cost for someone with a lot of skillpoints would be far too much for a new player to bear. And reducing clone costs at the higher levels doesn't address the issue that it still unfairly affects those who do their PVP in certain areas of the game.
As far as using alts to spam into combat, ship losses are why this isn't done on a regular basis, at the lower tiers clone costs are fairly trivial anyway if you're determined to spam ships into combat.
Ok, I'm sold on the overall idea. Though our solutions are very different, I think they both make sense. (I might even like yours a little bit more.)
I'm still not sold on the original price model though. I think there should be a set isk/SP Saved rate at the least and if there is a change in the rate of increase in isk/SP saved it should probably be the inverse of the current system.
If it stays the same I'd certainly be interested in CCP's reasoning behind the structure as it seem (to me anyways) a bit counter-intuitive. |
Corbin Blair
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 07:18:00 -
[75] - Quote
They said they were looking at clone costs. They didn't say they were going to remake the whole clone system from scratch. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2431
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 09:08:00 -
[76] - Quote
I smell a use for frozen corpses on the horizon.
It would be nice to see those using their corporate clone vats as "respawn points" actually having to start worrying about putting in what they take out. Eve is harsh/has consequences/leet PVP and all that stuff.
It would certainly be the end of disco SB pod popper BSs.
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fukier
RISE of LEGION
780
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 14:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I smell a use for frozen corpses on the horizon.
It would be nice to see those using their corporate clone vats as "respawn points" actually having to start worrying about putting in what they take out. Eve is harsh/has consequences/leet PVP and all that stuff.
It would certainly be the end of disco SB pod popper BSs.
that and they could add biomass to ship wreks... i mean there are 1000's of people on the larger ships so that means potential for lots of spare parts to make your clones out of. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
255
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 14:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
fukier wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I smell a use for frozen corpses on the horizon.
It would be nice to see those using their corporate clone vats as "respawn points" actually having to start worrying about putting in what they take out. Eve is harsh/has consequences/leet PVP and all that stuff.
It would certainly be the end of disco SB pod popper BSs.
that and they could add biomass to ship wreks... i mean there are 1000's of people on the larger ships so that means potential for lots of spare parts to make your clones out of.
I have his upper leg and her lower leg.
I have his upper leg... and her lower leg.
I have HIS upper LEG AND... HEEEER LOWER LEG
and seriously I can't undock until I find a torso so.. tell the gang to wait 10 min |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
255
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 15:02:00 -
[79] - Quote
also, I'd be real interested if we could see data on clone usage across the base.
how many never use them and how often the pvprs (at their varying degree of pvp activity) use clones. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
780
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 15:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:also, I'd be real interested if we could see data on clone usage across the base.
how many never use them and how often the pvprs (at their varying degree of pvp activity) use clones.
i wonder if you can get the metrics from eve-kill?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
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Cavalira
Alekhine's Gun
46
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:23:00 -
[81] - Quote
I believe CCP should make the clone-upgrade automatic and free. Moving your clone, however, should be more expensive. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
315
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 21:18:00 -
[82] - Quote
Remove them goddamn clones completely. Everyone is always auto cloned. New inventory: Getting better since version 1.2, but what about back and forward buttons? |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
782
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 21:54:00 -
[83] - Quote
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:Remove them goddamn clones completely. Everyone is always auto cloned.
i would go for this as long as you do insurance for clones...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3079
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:08:00 -
[84] - Quote
fukier wrote:Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:Remove them goddamn clones completely. Everyone is always auto cloned. i would go for this as long as you do insurance for clones... Why??
Adding complexity for the sake of complexity is poor game design.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
782
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:18:00 -
[85] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:fukier wrote:Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:Remove them goddamn clones completely. Everyone is always auto cloned. i would go for this as long as you do insurance for clones... Why?? Adding complexity for the sake of complexity is poor game design.
two reasons:
1. isk sink as the insurance runs out after 90 days
2. risk adverse people (having a system that can insure your implants will encourage people to fight) Though the insurance would only insure regular non special implants up to 80% of thier value (so that means implants like snakes or slave sets only get the eq insurance as thier regular version) you know the old montra if you cant afford to lose it then dont fight in it... well lots of people have high value clones and wont pvp in them because they cant afford to loose them and if you dont have a clean clone next door chances are you wont go on that roam. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
320
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:47:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ooh what if the clone cost was 1-10% of your sp? This way it is a more graduated system and impacts at a relatively low cost level. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 23:07:00 -
[87] - Quote
fukier wrote:1. isk sink as the insurance runs out after 90 days
I don't think you understsand how insurance works wrt isk sinks and faucets. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
792
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 23:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:fukier wrote:1. isk sink as the insurance runs out after 90 days I don't think you understsand how insurance works wrt isk sinks and faucets.
Enlighten me then... Its a sink because you dont get isk back if you are not podded after the 90 days. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2300
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 23:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
fukier wrote:Sal Landry wrote:fukier wrote:1. isk sink as the insurance runs out after 90 days I don't think you understsand how insurance works wrt isk sinks and faucets. Enlighten me then... Its a sink because you dont get isk back if you are not podded after the 90 days.
Insurance is for the most part, an isk faucet. It injects more isk in to the economy than it ever takes away. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1096
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 23:52:00 -
[90] - Quote
Just so you all know, I think he was talking about "clone insurance". The idea that was posted by James earlier. |
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