Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.

How do you go from "clone costs in their current form" to "not happy at all with how clones work?" Your first sentence is already an unnecessary exaggeration, I'm not going to bother reading the rest.

thank you kind sir for your most contructive comment about nothing...

to me they are the same thing.

thanks

thank you kind sir for your most contructive comment about nothing...

to me they are the same thing.

thanks

how about

"7. reduce the cost of clones"

He's right Fuk (can i call you Fuk? yes? thanks). you're jumping to conclusions. Might have just been better to say "hey ccp, clones need more work than just cost" lol.

to me they are the same thing.

Dev says, "We're not happy with clone COSTS" and nothing to say beyond that.

Where did they say they aren't happy with how clones work?

How do any of your suggestions have anything to do with how clones "work"? It's looks like a suggestion on how clones would be distributed, but not a thing about how they "work".

Why would they remove an ISK sink like clones?

Can you use a fork?

Lower the cost so my clone is not more expensive than my ship would be nice.

if 2. happens.... :marketmanipulation:

Lower the cost so my clone is not more expensive than my ship would be nice.

yeah but at that point whats the point in even having clones?

i mean to what ship should the cost be lower?

a frig?

thats why keep the cost the same but also add the ability to produce and sell clones...

that way the cost can be dynamic or for big alliances you can have free clones for ops and stuff... like you guys do for ships...

No wonder CCP makes silly changes with so many people suggesting silly ideas all the time.

A cap of 20mil seems agreeable

Ok good forum troll what are your suggestions?

Or do you not have any and just like to comment for the sake of it?

Leave it to an RoL member to come up with half baked ideas. This thread is going places.

Anyway, my advice is: Leave the hard thinking to CCP, it's their job.

Don't quit your dayjob, kid. ;)

How about simply cutting clone costs at higher levels? There, was that so hard?

indeed though its all up to CCP to decide what to do... but i do enjoy having a thought experiment on what the community would like to see changed or if there is a need for any changes at all.

If they do rework the system I have to admit I would not mind...

A: Player created clones (with an investment in the gear/BP/bio mass necessary to do so).

B: Clone cost based on how many implants it is prepped to hold, instead of skill levels (which is a little silly if you think about it).

This way if you don't plan on using implants of any type you can get a hold of a very, very cheap clone no matter how old a player you are. Or you could pay a premium for a clone prepped to hold the max number of implants on day one of your EvE career.

Can't afford the upkeep on the Ferrari? Sell it and buy a Ford.

Can't afford the upkeep on the Ferrari? Sell it and buy a Ford.

Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.

I like the idea of keeping the clone costs the same but turning it into an insurance for a period of 90 days, maybe longer or shorter as necessary, so your skillpoints are insured during that period no matter how many pods you lose. The only way to lose insurance would be to either let it expire or buy insurance for a higher SP level. That would actually increase the isk sink for those who don't lose clones very often, while at the same time making things a lot easier on those who lose clones frequently.

I wouldn't mind this. Even though it would cost myself more in the long run.

Well see, the benefit of such a scheme is that it doesn't punish people for doing PVP in certain areas of the game, and everybody at a similar skill level pays the same amount of ISK for SP insurance regardless of how much they lose pods.

The issue I do see with it however, is that people can and will abuse it heavily. Pretty much during that time frame you have unlimited supply of no cost clones for "pod scouting" or other things. Might be best to have a cap before you have to repay.

that why IMO the best way to do it is player manufactured clones...

leave the rpice up to the players not some odd math mechanic...

Manufactured clones doesn't really make sense, and seems more trouble then worth.

I don't understand B. Surely the implants themselves should be the financial loss when you're podded, not the implant slots in addition?

Let me put it this way, which makes more sense?

1: You must pay more for your clone now because now you have more knowledge that needs to be transfered to your blank clone?

In the lore there is a reason why high level clones are expensive: It harder to make the brains complex enough to accept all the extra skillpoints without loss.

This implies that if we could make our own clones, making high SP ones would be a long, expensive process.

Im very disappointed with this dev.. CCP should increase the death penalty in EvE Online, not reduce it.

I think clones Should be cheaper or free Only the implants should cost more than Now.

And Allow Jump clone in the same [Region or System] under 24H timers.

And of course allow people To build/ sell / buy clones But Not WIth PI but With CORPSES and other things maybe
Clone = corpse+ PI T4 + Salvaged items .

giving corpse a new life ^^ and create a new career Corpse collector :)

Hello.

Let me put it this way, which makes more sense?

Flat clone costs and the removal of standings requirements for jump clones in high sec.

The game needs more isk sinks, not less.

You make an argument for clone insurance, but you don't articulate what the mechanic actually is

That might be because if I did so, I'd be repeating myself, since I did just that in an earlier post in this thread.

As far as using alts to spam into combat, ship losses are why this isn't done on a regular basis, at the lower tiers clone costs are fairly trivial anyway if you're determined to spam ships into combat.

Of course, we're the ones who have newbies in ships which can be spammed into combat

It would potentially be more of an isk sink because of the sheer number of players who don't lose pods on a regular basis. Instead of buying a clone and forgetting about it until the next time they have to upgrade, they'll have to buy a new clone once every insurance period and when they have to upgrade if they want to stay covered. Obviously this would decrease the sink for PVP'ers, but overall it evens things out across the board and doesn't arbitrarily punish people who do their PVP in areas of space where either bubbles are allowed or smartbombs are much more common.

Removing clone costs entirely wouldn't be a good idea because that would remove an isk sink, which is needed because of the inflation in the game (the sinks don't come anywhere close to balancing the amount of isk pouring into the game from things like mission bounties). Keeping clone costs flat across the board isn't a good idea either because what would be a manageable clone cost for a new player would be absolutely trivial to someone with a lot of skillpoints, and a meaningful cost for someone with a lot of skillpoints would be far too much for a new player to bear. And reducing clone costs at the higher levels doesn't address the issue that it still unfairly affects those who do their PVP in certain areas of the game.

As far as using alts to spam into combat, ship losses are why this isn't done on a regular basis, at the lower tiers clone costs are fairly trivial anyway if you're determined to spam ships into combat.

I smell a use for frozen corpses on the horizon.

It would be nice to see those using their corporate clone vats as "respawn points" actually having to start worrying about putting in what they take out. Eve is harsh/has consequences/leet PVP and all that stuff.


It would certainly be the end of disco SB pod popper BSs.

that and they could add biomass to ship wreks... i mean there are 1000's of people on the larger ships so that means potential for lots of spare parts to make your clones out of.

also, I'd be real interested if we could see data on clone usage across the base.

how many never use them and how often the pvprs (at their varying degree of pvp activity) use clones.

Remove them goddamn clones completely. Everyone is always auto cloned.

i would go for this as long as you do insurance for clones...

Why??

Adding complexity for the sake of complexity is poor game design.

1. isk sink as the insurance runs out after 90 days

I don't think you understsand how insurance works wrt isk sinks and faucets.

Enlighten me then... Its a sink because you dont get isk back if you are not podded after the 90 days.

Insurance is for the most part, an isk faucet. It injects more isk in to the economy than it ever takes away.

Leave it to an RoL member to come up with half baked ideas. This thread is going places.

Anyway, my advice is: Leave the hard thinking to CCP, it's their job.

Don't quit your dayjob, kid. ;)

Ok Forum peeps CCP is not happy [edit] with the current mechanics with clone prices [edit]...

So what say you how would you fix the clone shenanigans?

My 0.02 isk on the subject:

1. Keep clone prices the same in all medical bays.

2. Give us the abilily to manufacture clones using PI products

3. Let us as a player transport clones in our ships

4. Let us as players buy and sell clones on the market

5. revamp the clone bay mod for ships. (perhaps make a sub cap clone bay ship or a mod for pos that can produce/hold clones)

6. allow multiple clones to be in a medical bay (that way i can stockpile clones so i dont have to buy new ones each time i die)

---

this would be great for a player like me who has over 120 mill SP as my clones are getting rather expensive

this would also open up areas of NPC 0.0 that are currently vacant due to distance to medical bay stations.

this would also take away the punishment for older players who just happened to play the game longer then others. remember older char does not mean a rich char. plus i would not mind taking out cheep ships and pvp in them as the clone cost would not be 500 times the cost of loosing the ship.

this would also take something that is currently out of players hands and make it a market dynamic variable. which in my eyes is always a good thing to give power to the players.

Anyway, maybe just have 3 different types of Medical Clones available? Such as:

'Basic' Medical Clone = no Implant slots
'Standard' Medical Clone = Attribute implant slots 1-5
'Upgraded' Medical Clone = Attribute implant slots 1-5 and Hardwiring slots 6-10

personally I think GoonSwarm should be given the only clone BPOs as a reward for all the content they've generated for eve over the years.

Insurance is for the most part, an isk faucet. It injects more isk in to the economy than it ever takes away.

Lower clone prices, cut the delay in jump cloning, get rid of leaning implants, speed up training to compensate.

You shouldn't have to train more slowly because you PVP. For as much as CCP claims to want to encourage PVP, the loss of SP gain speed (or the loss of a very expensive pod) is one of the biggest barriers to jumping into the null sec pool.

I just noticed this. Making Eve easier and less risky will make it boring. Jumping into null and PvPing everyday is exciting because it is scary and risky. Your implants are part of that risk, if you want lower risk then wear cheaper implants. The player who wears expensive implants has an advantage and pays for that advantage in greater risk.

I hate the jumpclone timer myself, but it is one of the limitations that we need to plan for, without those limitations there is no planning required, and that is a big part of Eve. He who plans better has an advantage. Also the jumpclone timer is one of the things that keeps NewEden a big place, the shorter that timer is the smaller New Eden is.

As for clone prices; if someone doesn't want to put their clone at such risk then they can go to Empire space to PvP. Risking your pod is one of the things that separates Null sec from Empire space.

Doing away with these risks and limitations would make NewEden a smaller less exciting place.

Lower the cost so my clone is not more expensive than my ship would be nice.

Why didn't you guys stop training if clone costs were becoming prohibitive?

Train an alt designed to fly frigs if that's what you want to do. I don't know what is more disheartening; the fact that you guys are asking for Eve to make up for your fail character build or the possibility that they will concede to your demands.

Woohoo lets all go ride the rides in Eve land!

You have a very short vision of what gaming and fun is and would like Eve to be what it was back in your stone age 2003.

Flash news: it's not and you'll have to get over it sooner than later.

..... are more players not liking the current status than the other way around, will you get over it ?

I think clones Should be cheaper or free Only the implants should cost more than Now.

And Allow Jump clone in the same [Region or System] under 24H timers.

And of course allow people To build/ sell / buy clones But Not WIth PI but With CORPSES and other things maybe
Clone = corpse+ PI T4 + Salvaged items .

giving corpse a new life ^^ and create a new career Corpse collector :)

I'm definitely a fan of getting rid of clone upgrades completely. Just an annoying and pointless ritual to go through which punishes me for being absentminded and forgetful and rewards me for having a smartphone and Aura.

Or at least have some sort of undock warning dialogue. That's not exactly babying us any more than jumping into low-sec is it?

Lower the cost so my clone is not more expensive than my ship would be nice.

No, its not hand holding any more than the lowsec warning, they are both horrible ideas that make Eve kinder and gentler.

This.

Clone costs are a bit pointless to be honest. What does the clone cost actually achieve other than an ISK sink?

Or less tedious. And by golly eve needs to do it self every favour it can on that front.

tedious = attention to detail; Eve has always rewarded that sort of play, it is similar to chess and poker and Bridge that way. Eve will make a terrible FPS. I can't for the life of me understand why so many people are trying to push it that way.

I'm not quite sure how 'can we get rid of this pointless death and distraction tax?' really equates to 'give me a flight stick please'

each to their own and their ADHD meds though.

They said they were looking at clone costs. They didn't say they were going to remake the whole clone system from scratch.

tedious = attention to detail; Eve has always rewarded that sort of play, it is similar to chess and poker and Bridge that way. Eve will make a terrible FPS. I can't for the life of me understand why so many people are trying to push it that way.

We produce biomass through PI, we collect corpses through space combat. Why not add in the ability to produce multitudinous clones through PI or space manufacturing, with the ability to determine a "clone level" (i.e.: longer baking time for better quality brains), and leave it up to the players to decide how much the resource is worth?

Last night just before I fell asleep it occurred to me that expensive clone prices are a very significant limitation for characters with high SP totals. To remove this limitation is in effect making those characters even more powerful.

And yet there has been no discussion of how to rebalance after this boon is granted

jesus you guys are like sharks jumping on the first sent of blood in the water...

i have updated the op to better reflect what i meant to say...

I would be all for adding clones to the market, if that didn't mean that you cannot change where your clone is installed at any time.

a 10 year old character may not be any better at flying T1 frigs than a 1 year old, however he has an order of magnitude in clone liability over the younger player.

I would be all for adding clones to the market, if that didn't mean that you cannot change where your clone is installed at any time.

Not if he stopped training at the point that the frig pilot was maxed out in skills. In that case they have exactly the same clone liability. And the 10 year old account has 2 alts, one for big ships, and one for making ISK outside of combat. That is how Eve is won. The "I want to put all my points into one character and then complain that his clone is too expensive to PvP" Is a fail character build and it should be subject to the same consequences for failure that every other player in Eve must face.

Not a massive change for overall game, but a huge change for higher SP players now able to have fun flying a cheapo throw away T1 frig for fun since it doesn't use any more SP to fly it than a lower SP character.

I would be all for adding clones to the market, if that didn't mean that you cannot change where your clone is installed at any time.

I agree that that's what the game encourages, and it's why I started this character for PvP.

It also means my alt rarely leaves highsec as I'm unwilling to double up core, defense and combat training for him. I'm not sure if that is really the sort of behaviour the game should encourage.

how about

"7. reduce the cost of clones"

It isn't, Eve needs more reasons for non combat characters to go to nullsec, more industry and opportunities for advanced research perhaps.

Your situation also brings up the issue of pilot skills for non combat characters, they shouldn't need them. I wish we could contract characters to be moved so that a station bound character didn't have to fly itself, although there should be substantial benefits to being able to do so.

I still think that industry slots should be moved to PI, then industrialists would have to fly or contract stuff back and forth to their PI locations. This would create benefit for all in one characters but not necessitate them.

Anyway, you did it right as far as how to build your account with different characters for different activities. And you nailed the real problem here; it is not clone prices, its with the limitations on non-combat characters and the need to train them to be pilots even though that's not their purpose.

No it is clone prices. Otherwise I would happily lump all my SP on one character and have augmented jump clones for different activities, with the implants I choose to insert being the risk I take for the rewards I perceive and no different to fitting my ship.

I'm not against alts I just don't think you should have to play with all three characters to avoid bad game design features.

jesus you guys are like sharks jumping on the first sent of blood in the water...

i have updated the op to better reflect what i meant to say...

"You guys"? Did we all sit around and brainstorm this response or something?


Considering the way that clone costs are calculated, I'm making an assumption that CCP has a particular line of reasoning.
As if they:

Assume that as an older player you'll have access to easier ISK generation, and therefore need higher sinks.

Assumed that we would self regulate, by not training a single character to excessive SP levels to keep clone replacement affordable.

And then there's the really geeky ****, like:
Lore.

Clones are fine the way they are, what it eventually ends up costing you isn't.
How clones are distributed doesn't really have anything to do with how much you can potentially lose when you replace a clone. It would be easier for CCP to control the cost of clones on their own; not have it governed by the market, which is run by the players.

Clones are supposed to be a penalty for getting podded, not discourage PvP. The curve is broken.

You're hardly an original thinker when it comes to this topic.

4-5 years ago goons was against this every bit of the way. Why have you changed your minds?

Now Goons are the ones with the expensive clones....

Ahh I see.

But would'nt that mean CCP would have to offer them a special snowflake treatment now that their clones are as expensive as ours?

I expect it to arrive any day now. CCP are after all working on the ~medical clone issue~

Yes indeed it has been a issue for years and years.
Thank god we have a CSM as The Mittani to make these changes happen. He's is a true servant of the game and the community and in no way only lobbying his own interests.

"You guys"? Did we all sit around and brainstorm this response or something?


Considering the way that clone costs are calculated, I'm making an assumption that CCP has a particular line of reasoning.
As if they:

Assume that as an older player you'll have access to easier ISK generation, and therefore need higher sinks.

Assumed that we would self regulate, by not training a single character to excessive SP levels to keep clone replacement affordable.

And then there's the really geeky ****, like:
Lore.

Clones are fine the way they are, what it eventually ends up costing you isn't.
How clones are distributed doesn't really have anything to do with how much you can potentially lose when you replace a clone. It would be easier for CCP to control the cost of clones on their own; not have it governed by the market, which is run by the players.

Clones are supposed to be a penalty for getting podded, not discourage PvP. The curve is broken.

You're hardly an original thinker when it comes to this topic.

Now Goons are the ones with the expensive clones....

Use an alt if you want cheap throw away combat. Or jump clone to empire space to fight. You are asking for a huge increase in the versatility and power of your character and offering nothing to mitigate that effect or to replace the sink.

Ahh that makes sense, they prolly just finished running the numbers on that little dust up in Asakai the other day.

I bet the numbers there reveal that Test will destroy the CFC in a battle of attrition just on clone costs. Hordes of lowskill pilots from Test just smashing into the ubber clones on the Goon side. Interesting.

Gaming must be a fun experience even when the loss is "total", many changes including the increasing number of higher SP characters playing the game will have an impact on this positive change so that login to Eve does not enforce the feeling of having a second job or require microtransactions (I already pay my sub with real money and it's clearly enough)

So now "Eve is Dying! We need to make clones cheaper." Go on tell me more.

Once again you're jumping on someone comment and state silly things.

Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."

it doesn't make it easier, it just abolishes the convoluted workaround of having two or three characters to do the job of one which either requires more time or more money for additional accounts.

this guy gets it!

Who? me or Ankles?!

ankles... i dont like paying so much isk for loosing a frig

Its not a bad game design feature. It is a very important sink and it is a character limitation that rewards good character planning. Every voice to the contrary thus far has just been some variation of "make Eve easier."

So you're saying I'm being penalized, because I didn't plan my character training correctly?

I'm saying that an account with all its SP's in one character has advantages and disadvantages. An expensive clone being a huge disadvantage that people want to go away. While keeping all of the advantages. It is an unfair adjustment that will unbalance the current power structure.

The thing is there are some players who planned on people having that disadvantage and built to take advantage of it. The case of Test v. Goons being the big one.

Most people look at this and see more pewpew, there are however very specific winners and some losers with a change of this magnitude. That is probably why CCP was so vague about "being unhappy with clone pricing." It needs some work, but its a big issue with far reaching consequences balance wise.

Lower the cost so my clone is not more expensive than my ship would be nice.

The only advantage is being able to use different ships. When you fly a frig, there are only so many skills you use. It's the same for everyone. This is what makes Eve's skill system so great.

People should not be punished for having one account or training only one character. As much as I agree with many things you say bud, that's simply illogical. You're basically saying sure you can fly anything you want, but to keep clone costs down, you must train multiple character and have multiple accounts.

The cost of replacing many of my clones, dwarfs the medical cost. This isn't simply about ISK, it's about balance and changing a mechanic that penalizes longevity. It's about allowing people to choose.

Test v goons is irrelevant to me and this tbh.
But CCP haven't been vague. Page 48 of the last CSM meeting will tell you exactly what they think of this and even the SP loss.

I'm all for sinks and would like more to be introduced. But this sink needs a rework.

There's huge advantages to having all your skills in one character: If you move you only need to move one char, you never need to log out then back in to do something, you don't have to contract goods back and forth or remember who has what, it saves you a month training time on core skills.

You are not being punished for playing one toon, there are great advantages to that. As with all things in Eve it comes with some limitations and problems too, high clone cost being one. The assumption that playing one char should be better than playing 3 characters is strange to me. It doesn't make the game better, there are 3 slots to take advantage of, and most MMO players have more than one character. Why would CCP give players who only have one character and advantage over those who play all 3?

You made the choice, for whatever reason, to skill up one toon. While other players put up with the disadvantages and complications of working multiple characters and now you want CCP to invalidate all of that work. You can roam freely while multi character accounts must log out and back in and shuffle gear and funds around.

And this is to say nothing of taking advantage away from characters who spent months of training time and grinding faction to be able to afford their clones and gear because they could see where the clone prices were going.

If you want cheap clones then you compensate all those players that worked and planned to play the game as it was presented instead of complaining about it being unfair.

But there is one problem with your stance, I haven't simply trained up one character. I have in fact 4 high SP characters. I would have had 8, but I have sold 4 character that were way over 100 mil SP and closed the accounts. Having one character is not an advantage, that's why I have more. More chars make life a lot easier, because I can be in multiple places at the same time.

Each character I have, can do certain things better than the other. I simply don't understand your stance. It makes no sense.

And you personally have no problems paying for clones, you roam lowsec and have plenty of income to pay for your losses. That is how the game should be played, you are rewarded for good planning and a solid understanding of the game.

Most of the guys arguing for this are looking for a shortcut. They don't want to play the game as presented, they want the game to conform to their idea of what is fun. That works fine in a closed system, but Eve is not a closed system, and benefits to one population result in setbacks for another.

Freeing high skill point characters from the burden of clone costs will allow them up to be much more aggressive, those players will be suddenly more powerful than they were before.

OK fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Is that OK?

Yeah I'm good with that. Like I was telling Fukier I think CCP will lower the cost for clones on the high end. I enjoy the discussion not as an attempt to shape the game or influence CCP, rather its interesting to theorize what they might do and why. And then sometime in the future we get to see if we were right!

The other interesting thing about that is it confirms or denies certain aspects of the game that we are not privy to. Sort of a way to see behind the doors in Eve R&D.