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The Clash	Posted - 2005.07.21 09:33:00 - [31] why not nerf stackin dmg mods to hell and back . longer battles not the boring 200 km and then skills matter more then now . _________________ Re-activated ... Now lets see whats new , do we like it or im i ending back in the freezer ?
W0lverine	Posted - 2005.07.21 09:39:00 - [32] Edited by: W0lverine on 21/07/2005 09:39:50 Originally by: Fred0 It's the geddon that's ****** up. A long range geddon will do upwards to 950 dps at 40k making a megabeam geddon the third most damaging bs after the megapulse geddon and blaster mega. It's simply horribly unbalanced in todays eve. I would think that buffing the mega and tempest is not the way to go unless you all want even shorter battles. I was under the impression that everyone wanted longer battles and from that perspective a nerf of the geddon would be the right way to go.
Ice Foxy	Posted - 2005.07.21 09:54:00 - [33] Edited by: Ice Foxy on 21/07/2005 09:58:18 EM and thermal damage is the easyest to tank, personally i think the problem lies with the Mega sucking rather than the geddon being overpowered, mabye reduce the fitting requirements of hybrids slightly (or increase mega grid) so you can fit a extra damage mod or two, or give the mega 8 turret mounts so its bonus really matters... I like the geddon but it has its weeknesses, a geddon in gank mode has paperthin defences.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.07.21 09:56:00 - [34] Originally by: Face Lifter Data shows that a gank mega has only slightly more damage than a gank geddon. However, the gank geddon has way more range compared to mega, the geddon is more versatile, more effective. So I would agree with those who want to increase damage of large blasters. Either that, or nerf damage mod stacking. A Gank Mega will out damage a Gank Arma, but only if the Arma pilot has lass than level 5 Amarr BS. At BS 5, the Arma outdamages the Mega, by a VERY tiny amount. You say the geddon has more range and is more versatile. I say the Mega has more "HP" overall, and is the more versatile ship being that it has more med slots. The stacking penalty math needs an adjustment anyhow, since a T2 module starts giving increased bonuses at the 7th module (as compared to the bonus given by the 6th). As we get better modules with higher bonuses, that will slip lower, so eventually the 6th or 5th module will start giving better bonuses than the previous module. Thats a flaw in the stacking penalty that slants the favour towards ships with lots of low slots. It does need to be changed.
MrRookie	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:01:00 - [35] the problem with increasing the tracking to much is that they will become to lethal vs frigs _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Dionysus Davinci Originally by: MrRookie Although I miss the pint where the Armageddon should outdamage the Mega the reason is simply because the Arma has on extra low slot to play with. On the other hand the Mega has that extra midslot (lol ) I belive that would be the argument of the devs. Besides you can fitt a launcher on the mega. (maybe a rocket launcher if you have enough cpu) It isn't just that, fit an Armageddon with Mega Pulses and you have a huge amount of grid and cpu left over. looks liek you haven't seen the mega yet. I'm sorry but I'm gonig ot have to admit to why its like that teir one outdamaging a tier 2 and having longer range, It's just emm.. wrong
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:12:00 - [37] And btw everyone there has been a post stating the dps of both ships. The geddon outdamages the mega with 5% more dps or something like that plus the range...
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:13:00 - [38] Originally by: The Clash why not nerf stackin dmg mods to hell and back . longer battles not the boring 200 km and then skills matter more then now . That won'õt fix the geddon/megathron problem.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:14:00 - [39] Originally by: Fred0 It's the geddon that's ****** up. A long range geddon will do upwards to 950 dps at 40k making a megabeam geddon the third most damaging bs after the megapulse geddon and blaster mega. It's simply horribly unbalanced in todays eve. I would think that buffing the mega and tempest is not the way to go unless you all want even shorter battles. I was under the impression that everyone wanted longer battles and from that perspective a nerf of the geddon would be the right way to go. Have to admit, the megapulse is a wieeee bit too storng.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Ice Foxy I like the geddon but it has its weeknesses, a geddon in gank mode has paperthin defences. same goes for a gankathron.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Kaeten Have to admit, the megapulse is a wieeee bit too storng. You need to go do some math before stating things that are blatantly wrong.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaeten And btw everyone there has been a post stating the dps of both ships. The geddon outdamages the mega with 5% more dps or something like that plus the range... Again, don't just regurgitate what various people say on these forums or in your corp chat. Go do the math. Mega vs Arma, Neutrons versus MP, Electrons versu MP, etc, etc. Try different skill levels. Ammos. Number of damage mods. Then come back and spout off about "5% more dps or something like that".
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:39:00 - [43] Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 21/07/2005 10:39:39 OH YOU SHUT UP ALREADY! MEGA PULSE ARE NOT OVERPOWERED! I had to train surgical 5, large energy 5, and get tech 2 megapulse, so taht with 6 of them i could break the tank of the more powerfull npcs (1mill+) that orbit around the 40km!
Fred0	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:40:00 - [44] Originally by: mahhy I say the Mega has more "HP" overall, and is the more versatile ship being that it has more med slots. Right now you are bull****ting my good man. I suspect you fly amarr and try to be a moron. The versatility of being able to engage from 5k to 60k vastly outscores your hp and 1 med slot advantage. A gank blasterthron is dead in about 20 secs to a gank geddon in every unscouted situation.
Xanta	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Dred 'Morte Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 21/07/2005 10:39:39 OH YOU SHUT UP ALREADY! MEGA PULSE ARE NOT OVERPOWERED! I had to train surgical 5, large energy 5, and get tech 2 megapulse, so taht with 6 of them i could break the tank of the more powerfull npcs (1mill+) that orbit around the 40km! i can't kill anything with blasters at 40k
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:43:00 - [46] you are noobs, gankageddons have no tank, megathrons can fit ion blasters and a decent tank! with that you can fight at close range, where half other battleships dont hit, doing decent damage and tanking a quite a bit too!
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Xanta Originally by: Dred 'Morte Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 21/07/2005 10:39:39 OH YOU SHUT UP ALREADY! MEGA PULSE ARE NOT OVERPOWERED! I had to train surgical 5, large energy 5, and get tech 2 megapulse, so taht with 6 of them i could break the tank of the more powerfull npcs (1mill+) that orbit around the 40km! i can't kill anything with blasters at 40k Thats cuz ur supose to use railguns (350mm), and btw, at 5K npc bs wont hit you!
Fred0	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Dred 'Morte I had to train surgical 5, large energy 5, and get tech 2 megapulse, so taht with 6 of them i could break the tank of the more powerfull npcs (1mill+) that orbit around the 40km! So, you are fitting below max amount of guns. A tank in the lows. and then complain about damage output. You sir, are off the mark. Because megapulse are still more damaging with more range than other guns. you can't base balance discussions on your individual struggle to take out npc's.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:47:00 - [49] Originally by: Fred0 Edited by: Fred0 on 21/07/2005 10:41:29 Originally by: mahhy I say the Mega has more "HP" overall, and is the more versatile ship being that it has more med slots. Right now you are bull**ting my good man. I suspect you fly amarr and try to be a moron. The versatility of being able to engage from 5k to 60k vastly outscores your hp and 1 med slot advantage. A gank blasterthron is dead in about 20 secs to a gank geddon in every unscouted situation. Edit: It's not 5%, mahhy is right. It's about 1195 to 1197 dps at max skills and max gank. Mega is slightly ahead with slightly less conservative settings. I'm bullting? lol. Yes I'm an Amarr pilot, but before you accuse me of bull**ting you need to go back and read up on my stance regarding the rather large mega pulse nerf. Secondly, you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about and yet you think you can effectively engage with MP from 5km up to 60? Dead wrong. Then you try and state that a gank blaster is dead to a gank geddon in every situation? Again, dead wrong. Do you ever actually PVP? And yes the "advantage" the Arma has is roughtl 0.3% extra damage, IF and only if you have BS level 5. What percentage extra HP does the mega have over the Arma? (I'd check myself except I can't get to the main Eve site / Itemdatabase) Finally, go and figure out what the MP actually does for damage, as a turret, compared to Blasters. Then maybe people will start realizing if a change is needed, it needs to be the stacking penalty.
Fred0	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:59:00 - [50] Originally by: mahhy Secondly, you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about and yet you think you can effectively engage with MP from 5km up to 60? Dead wrong.[/Quote] You'd win the engagement up to 60k for sure meeting a gank blasterthron. And you'd be very helpful in a fleet battle up to 60k. One small clarification I'm talking T2 MP ofcourse. [Quote]Then you try and state that a gank blaster is dead to a gank geddon in every situation? Again, dead wrong. Do you ever actually PVP? All the time yes. And more succesfully than mass I would say. And I said unscouted because it's generally very hard to start a fight in less than 10k unscouted. The mega fills a very select niche and does it no better than a geddon. Which has alot more versatility due to the mega pulse range. Quote: Finally, go and figure out what the MP actually does for damage, as a turret, compared to Blasters. Then maybe people will start realizing if a change is needed, it needs to be the stacking penalty. Well I'm actually inclined to say it's the geddon that needs nerfing. That a t1 can take out it's t2 counterpart in same config is wrong imho. Amarr in itself is not balanced and it ****s up risk vs. reward.
Xanta	Posted - 2005.07.21 10:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Dred 'Morte Originally by: Xanta Originally by: Dred 'Morte Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 21/07/2005 10:39:39 OH YOU SHUT UP ALREADY! MEGA PULSE ARE NOT OVERPOWERED! I had to train surgical 5, large energy 5, and get tech 2 megapulse, so taht with 6 of them i could break the tank of the more powerfull npcs (1mill+) that orbit around the 40km! i can't kill anything with blasters at 40k Thats cuz ur supose to use railguns (350mm), and btw, at 5K npc bs wont hit you! and your supposed to fit megabeams
Shirei	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:03:00 - [52] Edited by: Shirei on 21/07/2005 11:04:34 Originally by: mahhy And yes the "advantage" the Arma has is roughtl 0.3% extra damage, IF and only if you have BS level 5. What percentage extra HP does the mega have over the Arma? (I'd check myself except I can't get to the main Eve site / Itemdatabase) At any range greater than 10k (read: in 90% of all PvP engagements), a Geddon so far outdamages a Blaster Mega it's not even funny. I wouldn't call the Megapulse Geddon that incredibly imbalanced anymore though (altho the damage output is a bit silly), it's the Beam Gankageddon that is ridiculously overpowered because it has essentially the damage output of a close range gank ship - except at ~35-40k optimal with multi crystals. And yes, I do fly one and enjoy the fact that I do: - slightly more dps than a fully gank fitted autocannon Tempest (even if he uses the last 2 high slots on siege launchers, which kills any tank he may try to fit) at 3 times the range - 33% more dps than a fully gank fitted Rail Megathron - 68% more dps than a fully gank fitted 1400mm Tempest - 125% more dps than a fully gank fitted 350mm Domi (you know, how about comparing tier 1 BS to tier 1 BS) - more than 100% more dps than a fully gank fitted 1400mm Typhoon (including the damage done by the missiles, don't have exact figured for those yet though with the missile changes)
mahhy	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Fred0 All the time yes. And more succesfully than mass I would say. Any validity you might have had has now been thrown out the window.
Shirei	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:09:00 - [54] And you apparently ran out of arguments.
Fred0	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:10:00 - [55] You asked, I answered. Ofcourse, your opinion might differ from mine. But that does not change the fact that if you get prissy with me I'll answer in due style. Now get over yourself.
Liam Fremen	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:17:00 - [56] Originally by: Shirei And yes, I do fly one and enjoy the fact that I do: - slightly more dps than a fully gank fitted autocannon Tempest (even if he uses the last 2 high slots on siege launchers, which kills any tank he may try to fit) at 3 times the range - 33% more dps than a fully gank fitted Rail Megathron - 68% more dps than a fully gank fitted 1400mm Tempest - 125% more dps than a fully gank fitted 350mm Domi (you know, how about comparing tier 1 BS to tier 1 BS) - more than 100% more dps than a fully gank fitted 1400mm Typhoon (including the damage done by the missiles, don't have exact figured for those yet though with the missile changes) This guy already sayed everything.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Shirei snip Can't say I've actually looked at the DPS of Beams compared to other ships. I'll do so today though. I'm sure you're correct in the sense that the T2 Mega Beam does do more damage than the T2 425 anyhow. I'm also fairly certain its not possible to fit a rack of T2 Mega Beams on an Arma in full gank (i.e. 8 HS2), but I don't know if its possible to fit 7 425s on a Mega in full gank?
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:18:00 - [58] I'd like to see blaster's tracking and blaster's range(optimal & falloff of neutrons) on megapulses for just 1 week. It might be very convincing for the hardcore amarrs.
bundy bear	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Shirei Edited by: Shirei on 21/07/2005 11:04:34 Originally by: mahhy And yes the "advantage" the Arma has is roughtl 0.3% extra damage, IF and only if you have BS level 5. What percentage extra HP does the mega have over the Arma? (I'd check myself except I can't get to the main Eve site / Itemdatabase) At any range greater than 10k (read: in 90% of all PvP engagements), a Geddon so far outdamages a Blaster Mega it's not even funny. I wouldn't call the Megapulse Geddon that incredibly imbalanced anymore though (altho the damage output is a bit silly), it's the Beam Gankageddon that is ridiculously overpowered because it has essentially the damage output of a close range gank ship - except at ~35-40k optimal with multi crystals. And yes, I do fly one and enjoy the fact that I do: - slightly more dps than a fully gank fitted autocannon Tempest (even if he uses the last 2 high slots on siege launchers, which kills any tank he may try to fit) at 3 times the range - 33% more dps than a fully gank fitted Rail Megathron - 68% more dps than a fully gank fitted 1400mm Tempest - 125% more dps than a fully gank fitted 350mm Domi (you know, how about comparing tier 1 BS to tier 1 BS) - more than 100% more dps than a fully gank fitted 1400mm Typhoon (including the damage done by the missiles, don't have exact figured for those yet though with the missile changes) Beats the thron at long range aswell. The geddon is the most powerfull ship in the game. It beats everything else and is a tier 1. (not sure on raven with missile changes) The geddons ROF bonus needs to be lowered or other ships boosted.
Shirei	Posted - 2005.07.21 11:27:00 - [60] Edited by: Shirei on 21/07/2005 11:30:07 Originally by: mahhy I'm also fairly certain its not possible to fit a rack of T2 Mega Beams on an Arma in full gank (i.e. 8 HS2), but I don't know if its possible to fit 7 425s on a Mega in full gank? You need 1 RCU II and adv. weapon upgrades 3 to fit 7 megabeam II. If you also want to fit a tracking computer in the mid slots, you'll need to 'downgrade' to 6 megabeam II + 1 named t1 megabeam and have a turret CPU implant (3% ones are quite cheap though). And yes, you can fit 7 425 II with 7 mag stab II on a Mega (although you won't have enough CPU to fit anything but 4 sensor boosters in the mid slots). The Arma still comes out comfortably on top though because the the Megabeam's higher base dps and the fact that a RoF bonus gives more dps bonus than a straight damage bonus.

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