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Mining Barge SP Reimbursement

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Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 1140	Posted - 2013.02.12 15:49:00 - [391] - Quote Poe's law can be such a problem. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract.
Rebecha Pucontis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:13:00 - [392] - Quote Here is a pretty straight forward example of a real situation that would affect most people and is analogous to the Orca issue. Take the skill drone interfacing, your a combat pilot, and like most combat pilots you trained the skill to level 5 for the 20% extra bonus to damage for your drones. The skill also give a 20% bonus to mining drone yield also, and although your not interested in mining and never have been, you still train the skill to level 5 simply because the 100% increase to your drone damage is essential for any good combat pilot. Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage. Now, according to arguments from those such as Tippia, this would be perfectly fine, the skill still has value, despite the fact that you don't mine and so the skill has no actual value to you. You would not get any SP reimbursed and you should just go away and htfu. I think as most people on these forums would be effected by this change, they would be outraged, and they would come on these forums complaining. I would challenge any of you to say this is not the case. Well, guess what, exactly the same thing is happening with the mining barge skill. And when arguing against people like myself and others claiming this is not the way for CCP to go, then just think about the future ramifications of what you are actually arguing for.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3526	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:13:00 - [393] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Tippia wrote: Opening the door for actual skill remaps would ruin the game for everyone, including me. This "door" scares you, doesn't it? You can trust me when I say that this "door" has got a lock and only CCP holds the key to it. Nothing will come through it and eat you. CCP was very reluctant to code in the capability of reimbursing skill points into a pool to begin with, for very valid reason. The did so anyway in the interest of fairness (at that time and in that situaiton), even though they knew it was going to bite them in the ass later. Meaning they knew that people would try to leverage it's existance to lobby for skill point refunds for any changes made in the game, regardless of whether the warranted a reimbursement or not. Which is EXACTLY what you and a few others in this thread are attempting to do... as predicted. It's perfectly reasonable for a portion of the player base to not understand (or care) about basic concepts in game design and only worry about furthering their own agenda. Short sighted? Yes, but understandable. But that is why CCP as the game designer and producer has to be prepared to draw a line on issues like this to preserve the overall game play and game design principals that form the cornerstone of this game. Which, if you'll notice, is exactly what they have done. Argument is pointless, and short sighted. The guidelines for skill point reimbursement have been explained in detail. I'm sorry if some people don't get it, but the argument is over. Everything after this point is simply mental masturbati0n. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Kate stark 101	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:39:00 - [394] - Quote 20 pages, impressive. perhaps those people with orcas should give mining a go. i mean, they have the skills to do it. bonus points, you can cry about it while you do it because it's so easily afkable!
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 1089	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:41:00 - [395] - Quote Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage. That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.
Whitehound 759	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:49:00 - [396] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: ... All I read is you having a lot of fears. This, too, is a good reason for CCP to do it. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Rebecha Pucontis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:49:00 - [397] - Quote Karl Hobb wrote: Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage. That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities. Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. Mining barge previously allowed you to fly an orca, and now they are taking that aspect away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't. Logically and fundamentally there is no way you can argue the two examples are different, any difference is merely superficial. Are you starting to see the unfairness of the situation now? Judging from the lack of rational responses in reply from the adversaries to refunding SP, Im thinking I have pretty much nailed the argument with this one.
Kate stark 102	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:55:00 - [398] - Quote Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Karl Hobb wrote: Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage. That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities. Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. Mining barge previously allowed you to fly an orca, and now they are taking that aspect away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't. Logically and fundamentally there is no way you can argue the two examples are different, any difference is merely superficial. Are you starting to see the unfairness of the situation now? Judging from the lack of rational responses in reply from the adversaries to refunding SP, Im thinking I have pretty much nailed the argument with this one. what unfairness? i honestly don't see what you're so upset about. can you fly an orca now? yes. can you fly an orca after the change? yes so what's the issue?
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 14011	Posted - 2013.02.12 16:57:00 - [399] - Quote Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Karl Hobb wrote: Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage. That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities. Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. Mining barge was previously required to fly an orca, they are taking that away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't. Logically and fundamentally there is no way you can argue the two examples are different, any difference is merely superficial. Are you starting to see the unfairness of the situation now? Judging from the lack of rational responses in reply from the adversaries to refunding SP, Im thinking I have pretty much nailed the argument with this one. Except you haven't, because they are not the same. The Orca change means you can fly and use the same ships as before, with the same bonuses. Nothing has been lost. In your example, you simply removed the bonus and added it directly to the drone. You've not even stated what they then do with the skill. Geez, what is it with you lot. Logic and game balance, seem not to figure in any of your arguments. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 1090	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:01:00 - [400] - Quote Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. In what way? Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Mining barge previously allowed you to fly an orca No, Mining Barge allows you to fly a mining barge. Industrial Command Ships allows you to fly an Orca. Mining Barge was a prerequisite for Industrial Command Ships, but the fact that it is no longer a prerequisite changes absolutely nothing about your character's capabilities. Rebecha Pucontis wrote: and now they are taking that aspect away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't. See above. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.
Whitehound 761	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:05:00 - [401] - Quote Mag's wrote: Geez, what is it with you lot. Logic and game balance, seem not to figure in any of your arguments. No, what is it with you!! Since when does it need logic to tell someone "No"?! You just do not get that we do not want your explanations, reasons, arguments, logic and all the other tralalalala, but we want to have a compensation. Your words are just not good enough. So "Geez" back at you. When do you start to figure it out, eh? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Casoff 817	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:12:00 - [402] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Mag's wrote: Geez, what is it with you lot. Logic and game balance, seem not to figure in any of your arguments. No, what is it with you!! Since when does it need logic to tell someone "No"?! You just do not get that we do not want your explanations, reasons, arguments, logic and all the other tralalalala, but we want to have a compensation. Your words are just not good enough. So "Geez" back at you. When do you start to figure it out, eh? I, what?
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 14012	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:15:00 - [403] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Mag's wrote: Geez, what is it with you lot. Logic and game balance, seem not to figure in any of your arguments. No, what is it with you!! Since when does it need logic to tell someone "No"?! You just do not get that we do not want your explanations, reasons, arguments, logic and all the other tralalalala, but we want to have a compensation. Your words are just not good enough. So "Geez" back at you. When do you start to figure it out, eh? I see you're still not very good at this. You don't get compensation, for you can fly after this change exactly what you can fly now. If you, or anyone else has issues with the barge skill, then you should have not accepted the training of it when you trained for the Orca. I didn't want that skill in my head, so didn't inject it. Consequences are a biatch. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Whitehound 761	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:22:00 - [404] - Quote Mag's wrote: Consequences are a biatch. Well, could it get any worse for us then? No. Could it get any worse for you? Yes. See? I am good at this. You suck. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 14014	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:30:00 - [405] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Mag's wrote: Consequences are a biatch. Well, could it get any worse for us then? No. Could it get any worse for you? Yes. See? I am good at this. You suck. No worse, as in no change to what you have already. That's right Whitey. Which makes me wonder why you're still posting. I think it's because you really are bad at this. Just saying. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Charles the Miner Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:44:00 - [406] - Quote Tippia wrote: Charles the Miner wrote: You don't see the difference between asking for a refund when a game mechanic requires X skill, and asking for one when game mechanics don't require X skill? Nevermind your stand on refunds as a concept, you really don't see the difference? Since the difference between the two cases in terms of what the player can do is zero, no. But please tell me, what difference is there? It should be quite clear if you actually consider what your argument was in the first place. Which was: Tippia wrote: Quote: One side claims "but it is still good SP after the changes". Other side claims "but it will never be used after the changes". GÇªand the first side counters GÇ£you never used it before the change either so why don't you already want that SP back? What's so horrid about this change when nothing actually changes?GÇ¥ You're not seriously trying to use the fact that people weren't asking for a refund when a mechanic required something, against them, when the mechanics are later changed, are you?
De'Veldrin East India Ore Trade The East India Co. 909	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:47:00 - [407] - Quote Charles the Miner wrote: You're not seriously trying to use the fact that people weren't asking for a refund when a mechanic required something, against them, when the mechanics are later changed, are you? No, I think we're all trying to figure out why you think there should be a reimbursement when all that's changed is a skill you didn't use in the first place isn't changed at all. Edit: Let me clarify my stance. The skill mining barge hasn't changed a bit. It still allows you to do what it always did, and with the same bonuses. People without that skill do not get those bonuses. Your character's ability to perform the actions regulated by that skill are not impacted. All that changed was the pre-reqs on the Orca. If you can already fly the Orca, you will still be able to fly the Orca. You will even still be able to train the skill, thanks to the graciousness of CCP. So I'm confused about what it is you think you lost. The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault. Malcanis for CSM 8 Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain.
Whitehound 763	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:49:00 - [408] - Quote Mag's wrote: No worse, as in ... No, you did not read it right. I'll walk you through it... You said that consequence is a biatch, right? So who are you trying to scare with this statement? It cannot be me, because I can only win if CCP decides to do this. If they do not do this then I won't be more disappointed than I already am. Now what about you? Can it get worse for you? Yes, I do believe it can and you have given all the arguments for it yourself. You sure will not be happy. So who has to fear the consequence?! Do you get this now? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Whitehound 763	Posted - 2013.02.12 17:59:00 - [409] - Quote Mag's wrote: Scare? Oh ... No no no. You are the one being afraid here and you now just follow my word. I did not come with the statement of "consequence being a biatch", son. HTFU. Are we done here, fanboy? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 12861	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:00:00 - [410] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: Time Tippia. We're losing value of time! GÇªexcept we don't, since the time spent still provides the exact same advantages. In fact, if new players want the same advantages, they will have to spend more time. Charles the Miner wrote: It should be quite clear if you actually consider what your argument was in the first place. Which was: GÇªpoorly referenced. But ok. This is why I prefer my quoting style, people. Quote: You're not seriously trying to use the fact that people weren't asking for a refund when a mechanic required something, against them, when the mechanics are later changed, are you? Actually, yes, I am, because it reveals the request for what it is: a demand that CCP implement SP remapping. If it had anything to do with abilities and getting what you pay for in terms of training time, they would have understood that nothing changes. What they really want is to not have to choose or live with their choices. The game changes all the time. This may or may not make some of your old skills see less use for any number of reasons. Whether or not these reasons held true when you picked the skill is of no importance GÇö you picked them and you got exactly what you wanted. In this case, a skill you never used to begin with will still never be used, and in exchange for this complete lack of change, your abilities will also see a complete lack of change. Since you got exactly what you wanted back then and since you will keep having exactly what you wanted, there is nothing that is even remotely close to warranting a reimbursement. I would like to have all the time and ISK I spent on that first 120M Drake reimbursed now that they're so much cheaper and less time-consuming, thankyouverymuch. Fortunately, I never will. Vote Malcanis for CSM8.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 14018	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:03:00 - [411] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Mag's wrote: Scare? Oh ... No no no. You are the one being afraid here and you now just follow my word. I did not come with the statement of "consequence being a biatch", son. HTFU. Are we done here, fanboy? You got it wrong actually, I said "Consequences are a biatch." Just saying. Your ever loving fanboy. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Whitehound 763	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:06:00 - [412] - Quote Mag's wrote: Whitehound wrote: Mag's wrote: Scare? Oh ... No no no. You are the one being afraid here and you now just follow my word. I did not come with the statement of "consequence being a biatch", son. HTFU. Are we done here, fanboy? You got it wrong actually, I said "Consequences are a biatch." Just saying. Your ever loving fanboy. Ah, I get it. See, I love consequences. Action equals reaction. If something does not have a consequence then I get rather unhappy. Is your statement of "consequences are a biatch" your way of saying you fear consequence? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 14019	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:16:00 - [413] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Ah, I get it. See, I love consequences. Action equals reaction. If something does not have a consequence then I get rather unhappy. Is your statement of "consequences are a biatch" your way of saying you fear consequence? You seem to be troubled with fear for some reason. You do mention it quite a bit. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Whitehound 763	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:26:00 - [414] - Quote Mag's wrote: Whitehound wrote: Ah, I get it. See, I love consequences. Action equals reaction. If something does not have a consequence then I get rather unhappy. Is your statement of "consequences are a biatch" your way of saying you fear consequence? You seem to be troubled with fear for some reason. You do mention it quite a bit. I am just asking you. I'd like to know what your motivation in this is. You do not have to respond. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog
Charles the Miner Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:28:00 - [415] - Quote De'Veldrin wrote: Charles the Miner wrote: You're not seriously trying to use the fact that people weren't asking for a refund when a mechanic required something, against them, when the mechanics are later changed, are you? So I'm confused about what it is you think you lost. What is lost is the time training for science, mining, astrogeology and mining barge. What is lost is the added clone cost and perceived value of my SP on the market, and my sense of control over how I build my character. I realize opportunity costs aren't things CCP reimburse for, and I'm quite frankly on the fence myself - but I acknowledge that in a game were you have zero possibility of adjusting the way you build your character based on changing mechanics, that every step towards even less control, is certainly not a step in the right direction. What I do know however, is that I don't support the train of thought that goes into the majority of the arguments here. That's the kind of thinking that argued against the skill queue because of some ill-conceived notion that EVE has to be as unapproachable as possible, in order to remain "pure".
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 14022	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:34:00 - [416] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Mag's wrote: Whitehound wrote: Ah, I get it. See, I love consequences. Action equals reaction. If something does not have a consequence then I get rather unhappy. Is your statement of "consequences are a biatch" your way of saying you fear consequence? You seem to be troubled with fear for some reason. You do mention it quite a bit. I am just asking you. I'd like to know what your motivation in this is. You do not have to respond. What Ranger 1 said. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Maggeridon Thoraz Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost 48	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:36:00 - [417] - Quote i just think about the ninja looters profession or gankers that just skilled for the orca having a mobile shipbase in hisec. they never intended to mine nor giving mining boost. totally understanable that they are p***ed off and wants sp back.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 3881	Posted - 2013.02.12 18:44:00 - [418] - Quote Tippia wrote: Mr Kidd wrote: Time Tippia. We're losing value of time! GÇªexcept we don't, since the time spent still provides the exact same advantages. In fact, if new players want the same advantages, they will have to spend more time. Exactly. Instead of training only mining director 1, mining barge 5, and spaceship command 5, they will have to train all these plus ORE Industrial 3. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
De'Veldrin East India Ore Trade The East India Co. 916	Posted - 2013.02.12 19:13:00 - [419] - Quote Charles the Miner wrote: De'Veldrin wrote: Charles the Miner wrote: You're not seriously trying to use the fact that people weren't asking for a refund when a mechanic required something, against them, when the mechanics are later changed, are you? So I'm confused about what it is you think you lost. What is lost is the time training for science, mining, astrogeology and mining barge. What is lost is the added clone cost and perceived value of my SP on the market, and my sense of control over how I build my character. CCP can't do anything about the perceived value of your skill points. Personally, I feel that a character that can do more and is more versatile is always worth more than one intended for one specific purpose. As far as the training time, that was the price of what you wanted to be able to do at that time - the fact that the price is now declining does not mean that you are entitled to a refund. Here's a perfect example: I only trained Assault Frigates because I wanted to be able to fly HACs. That requirement is being removed this year - am I entitled to be refunded my skill points in AF? No. Just because I don't want to fly those ships, doesn't mean my skill points are useless - they provide the same benefits they always did, I am simply choosing not to avail myself of those benefits. The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault. Malcanis for CSM 8 Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain.
Krazynikomo Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 30	Posted - 2013.02.12 20:56:00 - [420] - Quote OP, please biomass.

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