Incorrect statement, as usual.

Untanked Mack has 11625 hit points.
Before the buff they were usually attacked by 2-3 catalysts and it was profitable.

Now how many catalysts are needed say in 0.7 to kill it? What about 0.5 sec? Still unprofitable?

it's all OK but you didn't answer to my question.

Miner: fits for max REWARD, min TANK. Should be profitable to suicide gank? You say: YES.
Suicide ganker: fits for max REWARD (DPS), no TANK. Should it be be profitable to suicide gank?

You right, ganker loses his ship anyway. But this is outside of question about Eve Online fitting ideology "trade off". Either we use this ideology or not.
You accuse miners for ignoring it. But we have suicide gankers who does not have such "trade offs".

At the end i don't think we should point fingers to miners for ignoring "fitting trade offs" unless whole suicide ganking works outside of this ideology (which is THE MAIN fitting ideology of Eve Online)

Perhaps Exhumer gankers are still upset that they cannot just use a Destroyer to earn a good profit and they have moved onto something else to make 'easy' isk.

Incorrect again. A simple reading of his statement would tell freighters should not be profitable to gank "per se" (that is the bare hull). Exactly what *often* happens for exhumers.

So you, as specialist of the "trade", are admitting that in order to be in line with CCP's official "should not profitably ganked" Hulk, Covetor and Retriever should be buffed?

I hope not! I make money when those ships pop!

But hey if we want to enforce consistency with CCP design...

So what's his issue that he has to mention freighters to begin with?

I have zero issues at all and did not mention them outside quoting him. He seem to have way too many sore spots.

Before tiericide a Mack miner could choose to have no tank or have wet paper tank enticing a gank because the T2 tank mods actually attracted gankers in search of ISK.

YOU say Retrievers are still profitable (few really cares to tank them anyway).

So just what ship do you consider the proper ship to gank with?
Because you keep saying ganking ship but never define it.
I mean a blastos can effect around 28k damage befor concord in a .5
A 1400mm nado can alpha @ 12k damage

A covetor has maybe 10k ehp
A retriever has 15 k ehp
and a procurer easily passes 40k ehp (yeesh I could make this a mission ship)

Exhumers will add around 5k ehp base if max skilled with the skiff tapping 80k (wow if drones werent such flying skeet I could retire my drake)

So really it just sounds like you want to be able to kill them in a gankalyst and are whining you cant.
Much like the kid at the carnival who cant ride all the rides for being to short.

I have to say I'm still baffled by the fact that some people feel entitled to profitable ganking.

Multi-billion freighters and shuttles with x99 PLEX, sure.

But mining ships?

That's not the reason why CCP has kept suicide ganking alive in hi-sec.

So the complaint isnt that they cant be ganked as I showed, but rather not profitably.
Which really is quite a different set of terms.

Also what happened to the freighter ganking?
Is it the new suspect changes made it entirely unsafe or something?

That's really not an answer. Again, why should ships with a standard fit for their purpose be profitable to gank in hi-sec?

I think you missed the 'standard fit for their purpose' part.

There aren't a myriad of profitable T2 fitted ships out there. And those that are, aren't required to sit in a stationary belt that anyone can warp to, to do their thing.

And it's still not an answer. Key word being profitable here.

Seeing the amount of whining in local in Abudban and Hek about untanked retrievers getting killed by destroyers on some days, I don't think op has a point.

Mining barges still die to ganking by people in destroyers.

Stop your whining, it doesn't make any sense.

Which barge is then?

So the Ops problem is he can't use his 10M destroyer against a 170M Tech 2 ship.

I see no problem with that, try something bigger or more smaller things and it'll work.

I can't gank freighters either with a single tornado, doesn't mean freighters are imbalanced.

Well seeing as they currently sport a station tank this could only be a massive nerf.
Ok now that I know where you are coming from I have a bit more agreement.
The mack is overtanked, but I dont think arguing profit factor is really worth a thing when you then complain that cost should not equal tank.

Goons complaining they cant suicide gank easily anymore

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Wow, 6 pages of poorly camouflaged ganker tears.

It's also not possible to make a profit ganking unfitted abaddons or Rokhs or empty freighters. For most ships it just doesn't work that way.

T_T wwaaaaaahhhhh!!!


Goon tears, best tears.

LOL!

Didn't read the thread.

Just wondering if you managed to find an excuse yet to post your 'don't carry 10B in the hold ' mantra yet. Sure, it has nothing to do with barges but that never stops you in every other thread.

Mr Epeen

you won't.
because when 8.5k m3 of veldspar is worth 10bn isk, you can be damn sure your gank destroyer will be a hell of a lot more.

Baltec, we read the headline, but no matter how eloquently you word yourselves, this thread boils down to bitter tears that the days of effortless suicide ganking of mining ships are over (for now).
As you guys would say to the miners who complained in the past:

umad?
HTFU
L2P
Adapt or die
GB2WOW
no
HAHAHAHHHAH
Whiner
[insert tired wannabe Eve bad-ass meme]

Pick the response you prefer.

And please, please keep this thread going. It makes my day.

but, that really is a whole different situation to "warp to belt, gank random miner, harvest tears".

A precious little group of players give two sh*ts about the ship balance. I guess there's a very slim chance that you belong in that group.
The majority really just want to come home from work, sit down at their computers and blow up unarmed ships, fraps it and put it on youtube, so they can clutter up "My Eve" with their lack of imagination and their risk aversion.

EDIT: Spelling checked.

To be fair Baltec1,

You are still able to kill them by ganking them.

Only the Skiff and somewhat the procurer is almost immune by design.

The mack and the retriever are both easily killed.

The question of whether it is profitable or not I don't think should be a factor in the slightest. Just my opinion.

Before the redesign, Exhumers and Barges had fallen behind dramatically in their designs since their initial release, because the population of EVE and ease of destruction had increased ten fold.

The redesign did a few things:

1. It allowed a more flexible option for miners, so they weren't basically just flying 1 ship for their purposes. Now all exhumers and barges have uses for both ICE and Rocks.

2. It solved the retardedly tedious issue of Jetcan mining, which CCP admitted they never wished existed. It was completely ridiculous, especially as mining is a mostly solo activity despite massive increases in efficiency as done in a group. It is solo, because it's so massively boring and static. Using a workaround mechanic to increase efficiency without having to resort to an alt or an unfortunate corp mate wasn't a good design.

3. It allowed for more balanced tanking abilities of the ships. Actually, to be brutally honest it made two ships (procurer and Skiff) excellent, whilst the Coveter and Hulk are weak, the retriever is weak and the Mack only reasonable.

So honestly, I think CCP did a good job balancing them and bringing them up to date with current game mechanics and environment.

If it is only the Mack that you have a problem with in that it's just a little bit harder to blast to dust now with a throwaway destroyer, I don't think it is honestly a very solid argument. You can still kill it easily, it just requires a bit more than a catalyst.

And that's only if someone decides to tank it....

But that's just coming from the opinion that it doesn't matter if the gank is profitable or not, it's about can you or can you not gank it....which you can, pretty easily. It just isn't as stupidly easy as before.

To be honest, if it wasn't

Why does ganking which is essentially a LOLs activity need to be profitable?

Where are the days of popping a 200million isk ship with T1 stuff for the tears?

If you reduce the tank on the Mack any more and make it easy to gank and everyone goes ape **** on the miners like they have been, then everyone will use the skiff because that thing has a decent ORE bay and is basically gank immune....and then there will be no more lols.

Besides, I do not think CCP believe that killing a ship by suicide ganking, unless it is carrying something rare and expensive or a megaload of goods, should be profitable in any way.

But that's just opinion. I understand the argument to lower it's tank further, but I do not particularly agree with it on the basis of game design and how it fits into the EVE universe in regards to making it profitable to suicide ships into them.

But nor is there any reason why suiciding a Mack should be profitable at all, since it carries no expensive PVP mods, cargo or any other such thing.

If you have it so miners can fit more faction type loot to their barges like super strip miners etc ( a bit like mission runners since this is basically the industrial mission running activity) then voila, it's profitable because of the rare goods they carry.

Just like basically it's not particularly profitable, if at all, to gank a mission drake or raven, but it might be if you do it to a Golem or a nightmare. And even then only if they carry neat gear.

Anything on top of that and it's done for the giggles.

The yield being made so similar is due to the tiericide concept they are also applying to the other ships.
I don't see as much teeth gnashing about T1 frigs having been buffed alike faction and T1-T2 differences being gradually removed.

Because CCP has stated many times that ganking them wasn't intended to be a profitable venture?

I don't see a problem with low ice prices. The skiff was always a terrible concept anyway. Nerfing the other exhumers isn't going to suddenly make it's ridiculous tank any better.

For highsec mining the skiff is about worthless because of it's one strip miner.


EDIT: Seriously what kind of fail are you involved in if you cannot gank an untanked exhumer in .5 while making a little profit?

Wow you contradicted yourself in your own post and you're too blinded by your hate that you cannot even see it.

So you say the mack wasn't fine before the buff because tanking it was irrelevant which you imply was bad. Then you turn around and say that the skiff is the one that's supposed to be immune to el cheapo ganks. So if the tank on the skiff is the one that's supposed to survive el cheapo ganks while the mack isn't then tell me how that isn't the same as where the mack was before the changes?

The skiff is a terrible design for highsec and I'm convinced they don't even want it used there. The single strip miner is capable of devastating the largest roids in one cycle in highsec. Even if the mack and hulk were given paper thin tanks it still wouldn't be worth using a skiff because the skiff wastes way too much time on empty roids.


I also like how you're like "WRONG!!!" and then when I'm like "wrong!" you're like "PROOF!!!!". So we're supposed to take what you type as the word of an eve god while the plebeian has no such right. You're hilarious ;0

When you max tank a mackinaw you lose yield too. So there's your trade off. You tank up you hurt your yield which is working as intended.

Except that's not true as you can fairly easily gank an untanked mackinaw. Once again you're just mad because you can no longer gank a mackinaw with a one week old alt in a catalyst.

Your beef is with CCP as they clearly stated that they didn't intend for exhumers to be profitable to gank. That said you can still easily gank an untanked mackinaw in highsec.

The hulk and mack were too easy to suicide gank, so CCP upped their base EHP. Go whine about it somewhere else.

I lost a tanked Mac in. 0.5 system shortly after the mining ship changes.....pair of blaster catalysts got me, so I think this talk of how its not worth ganking anymore is the usual propaganda by the gankers.

because mining is an insanely awesome isk per hour game breaking affair. no one should be allowed to earn more than 10m isk per hour from market trading anymore, since they dont even have to undock for that, thats ultra stupid never risk losing a ship or implants ever income source. How is that fair? maybe every 2 days every station trader should be executed and any pending market orders deleted? since a ship sitting in space shooting beams at a rock is too "safe" an isk source now.

FYI the only ship that really benefits is the procurer and its t2 cousin and perhaps slightly the retriever/t2 version. The covetor and the hulk are still big fat targets topping out at the same as ever 25kish hp. My tank fitted hulk gained like, 200 ehp with the change, i fail to see the game breaker there.

All this on top of the fact that, a mining ship itself cant fight back, and in highsec especially any "protection" must wait untill the attack is started, aka they must wait and let thier barge be destroyed unless the gank fails to have enough dps - and how often does that happen, really?

you can get 16k ehp on a hulk without a single t2 module and a max yield fit if you have a decent fleet booster.
unprofitable to gank in a max yield hulk. (and you can still fit a survey scanner)
who'd have thought?

Ok i see the arguement has moved away from the ganking question ,not by much but still a sign its not realy vailid.Consider this for years 0.0 has been crying out for a proper industrial base,maybe just maybe CCP have been listening and as a 1st step have given us rubuffed mining ships,and one mining ship,able to hold its own somewhat in 0.0 THE SKIFF.Now as mining is the base for industry,litterally everything comes from it .the 1st step may have been taken in giving proper industry to 0.0 ,allowing null players to do different things rather than watch jabber all day ect for a CTA or Akraris sitution to develop.Introduce proper industrial arrays for industrial slots chemical reactions ,ship building ect for stations and maybe more low sec minerals in asteroid belts ,and just maybe proper industry can be done in 0.0.The SKIFF then becomes a must have ship,as it can tank properly against rats ,and maybe against being PvPed.Rather than whail like babies over it ,look at what might be possible from the situation.Also with proper industry in 0.0 HS ganking just becomes a fun thing to do for players,like Hulkaggeddon .Albet maybe more expensive ,but given c

Just because something isn't used much doesn't mean it's broken.

Ganker tears really are delicious.

Say hi to John for me.

Delicious Tears

Who is John? and where am I crying?

The Mackinaw is king, it tanks well, when people can be bothered to fit it and it has a humungous cargo hold, Hulks have a smaller ore hold and are pretty crap outside of fleet mining, Retrievers can't tank because they're made of belly button fluff, Covetors are rarely used because the Mackinaw exists, Procurors and Skiffs can tank like mofos but lose out on the ore hold.

Nice selective quoting btw.