I think the baseline is the problem at this point. It basically makes it so miners do not have to make their trade-off choices, they can fit for max yield while still having adequate tank. The CSM quote affirms this because ganking is at "historic lows." Also with the ore bay change they completely removed one trade-off which is cargo space. So mining ships are currently ignoring one of the core concepts of EVE.

It's only too high if it's intended to be hard to do with a catalyst. If the goal is to require at a minimum a cruiser to gank them, then it's not really at a bad point. The whole debate is entirely irrevelent until we know whats the goal of EHP of a barge/exhumer. Both side can cry rivers worth of tears and write bible worth of rambling about how it's broken for nothing because the goal was never said. We can't really say it's too much or too little until we know if they are supposed to be as hard as a cruiser to kill or a abttle ship or a titan.

My point of view of the mack being a little too hard is only that, an opinion based on my own set of idea and so is the generic "all exhumer are too tanky" view. The same can be said of the old "exhumer are too easy to gank" point of view.

The only solid point we can take as most likely to be a fact is that they were too easy to gank because thier EHP went up. The rest is pure opinion. The key is to get the point of view of the devs so we can then discuss what ships pay what exactly to get more tank/yield.

I can agree that solo destroyers being able to gank barges was silly, but CCP gave us that tool when they buffed destroyers & I think they over-buffed them to be honest. Destroyer DPS is comparable to & often much better than cruiser DPS & we'd have been silly to continue using cruisers to gank when destroyers were a fraction of the cost for the same damage output.

It's only too high if it's intended to be hard to do with a catalyst. If the goal is to require at a minimum a cruiser to gank them, then it's not really at a bad point. The whole debate is entirely irrevelent until we know whats the goal of EHP of a barge/exhumer. Both side can cry rivers worth of tears and write bible worth of rambling about how it's broken for nothing because the goal was never said. We can't really say it's too much or too little until we know if they are supposed to be as hard as a cruiser to kill or a abttle ship or a titan.

My point of view of the mack being a little too hard is only that, an opinion based on my own set of idea and so is the generic "all exhumer are too tanky" view. The same can be said of the old "exhumer are too easy to gank" point of view.

The only solid point we can take as most likely to be a fact is that they were too easy to gank because thier EHP went up. The rest is pure opinion. The key is to get the point of view of the devs so we can then discuss what ships pay what exactly to get more tank/yield.

Barge in on me

Changing the mining frigates to have combat roles made us realize that we need something to replace them. Which lead us to realize how outdated mining barges are. ThatGÇÖs something we want to tackle over the course of the summer as well.

Our goal is simple: each and every single mining barge (and their tech 2 variant) should have an appealing role, and not just be a stepping stone on the way to something better. Players should'nt only aim for the Hulk without considering anything else when doing some hard rock and roll mining. That means playing with the following variables:

Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently.
Autonomy: mining barges should have proper cargo holds so they not always have to rely on jet cans (without turning them into industrials however). That means giving them large, specialized ore bays where all the ore will automatically go into when mining.
Resilience: another point is to give some of them proper EHP not to be one-shot by anything that even remotely sneezes on them.

I for the most part agree with your post aside from this part. How is the CCP Xahangen and the rest of the CSM noting that ganking is at historic lows not an acknowledgement that miners are getting a "free" tank due to the EHP changes?

They don't have to choose between cargo/tank/yield anymore. Cargo was completely eliminated due to the ore bays. Tank is a non-issue because of the EHP buffs so now everyone goes full yield. There are literally no trade-offs to be made now.

What ships usually are profitable to be ganked anyway? Lets say with a T2 fit since most exhumer probably fit T2 too for whatever they have fitted. Any point where we can start comparing?

If exhumers are not "too tanky" then please answer why ganking of exhumers is at a historic low instead of average?

First you need to appreciate that ganking of exhumers was at an historic high before the EHP buff.

To understand the cure, you must first understand the disease.

Anyhow, this is not a discussion about gank profitability.

CCP has also stated (as part of the the design) that suicide ganks was never intended to be directly profitable.

Always possible, often profitable in terms of industrial interdiction or other secondary gains, but not profitable in it self.

There is no goal or gold standard, haranguing about that is pointless and CCP follows the forums so voicing our opinions persuasively is the goal. The bolded portion of that devblog is hyperbole and possibly only applied while the "boomerang" was possible. If exhumers are not "too tanky" then please answer why ganking of exhumers is at a historic low instead of average?

They are supposed to have cruiser sized EHP which is fine because without a tank cruisers can be ganked by a catalyst. Yet the mackinaw untanked cannot be ganked by a catalyst. Hence why I say there is a problem mining ships no longer have to make trade-offs they are intrinsically cargo expanded and tanked.

All of the above is completely ignoring the conflict between what CCP Greyscale most recently stated and what CCP Soundwave stated.

The level of ganking going on when it was possible to make more ISK from the gank than it cost to perform the gank was far too high. I attribute the profitability of ganking ice harvesting ships down to the market value of Ice Harvester IIs, along with the value of salvage from an exhumer, along with the requirement for ships harvesting ice to be sat in space for tens of minutes at a time doing absolutely nothing.

I agree with CCP though: it should not be possible to make a living by ganking ships that are adequately set up for the task they are designed to do. Why is a T2 ice harvester worth 6M ISK? What other medium-sized weapon module is worth that much? Officer turrets maybe? What do we call people who fly officer-fitted battlecruisers into missions? Loot pi+¦atas. Is a T2 fitted combat ship economically viable to suicide gank? Nope.

So let's look at what opinion we share and don't share:

We don't agree on the appropriate level of "tankiness" for barges and exhumers. I wanted all the exhumers to have a little more tank than they used to have (10PG for the Hulk? Is that too much to ask?), you want the easy money from ganking endlessly.

Given the option to fit for tank or yield, many miners will opt for yield. That's where you the gankers come in: your role in the ecosystem was to find the lame, the sick, the slow, and be the visible hand of the evolutionary process.

Assuming your point of exhumer being supposed to equivalent to a cruiser tank, then thier naked all skill at 5 tank would be up to 3k EHP above T2 cruiser except recon ship (up to 6k). If cruiser is indeed the target level of tank, then now an argument could be made.

In line with what CCP Soundwave said awhile back, I personally do not believe that ships should be profitable to gank, at the base level. Being able to kill a Hulk with a destroyer & make 30mil from it was pretty silly. However if a person starts putting faction/DS stuff on their ship, why should it not be profitable to gank? That person has made a choice to turn their ship in to a loot pi+¦ata knowingly or not.

Anyhow, this is not a discussion about gank profitability.

Anyhow, this is not a discussion about gank profitability.

Assuming your point of exhumer being supposed to equivalent to a cruiser tank, then thier naked all skill at 5 tank would be up to 3k EHP above T2 cruiser except recon ship (up to 6k). If cruiser is indeed the target level of tank, then now an argument could be made.

Tanking

All the barges are getting their tanks adjusted to favor shields rather than structure hit points. Skiff and Procurer (original version of the blog incorrectly listed Retriever here instead of Procurer) are getting hit points comparable to a battleship, while the others are closer to cruiser level hit points.

Directly from the devblog, mackniaws/hulks should be cruiser level EHP and procuror/skiff should be battleship level EHP.

We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner.

Geesus H, jimmany crickets, why are so many concerned with f'ing miners and their barges, the only 2 with excellent tanks are the procurer and skiff, the mid size if not tanked die real easily, and the top die if you fart on them.

Seems to me that these...f...FFF..folks just want to fly around in the cheapest ship possible to gank paper thin ships so they can get lol's for nothing and have a segment of the eve universe pay for "their" good time.

I flew 2 industrial ships right into goon space "boom" just like that bet it was the best time those gate campers had all day.
I did it so you could have fun filled my Mexican pinatas with candy for you....nothing ever will satisfy boredom of this game except taking a break...just take a break.

It really does feel like it's personal by now

The problem is that, with no effort whatsoever by the miner, they are unprofitable to gank (and thus unlikely to be ganked). Unlike any other fitted T2 ship (fit with guns, damage mods, no tank, just like the average Mack).

Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it.

Well, unless you wanted to encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank the T2 fit Abaddon, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.

Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it. Now if there were officer strip miners to go with those extremely rare high-meta MLUs, I'm sure you'd see some fools try to use them. I have no complaints about gankers making a profit from the foolishness of others.

Of course making a T2 fit ship a profitable ganking prospect would encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank a T2 fit HAC, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.

Not even close. If the max yield miner was fitting officer modules, sure. The profit for ganking a T2 fit ship should not be enough to cover the cost of ganking it. Now if there were officer strip miners to go with those extremely rare high-meta MLUs, I'm sure you'd see some fools try to use them. I have no complaints about gankers making a profit from the foolishness of others.

Of course making a T2 fit ship a profitable ganking prospect would encourage people to engage in more PvP, at which point I'm all for it. But make that happen across the board. Until it's profitable to gank a T2 fit HAC, why should it be profitable to gank the T2 fit exhumer?

You gankers want to have your cake and eat it too.

CCP did the wrong thing by buffing the base hull. They need to give players enough rope to hang themselves: give the barges and exhumers the fittings comparable to similar sized ships, then let the players make the mistakes. The Hulk would be able to field an awesome tank with just double what it currently has. There are other options for addressing the profitability of ganking mining barges: you wouldn't need to fit much tank if the strip miners and ice harvesters used about 1/3 to 1/2 of the current material requirements.

Bringing the exhumers fittings in line with other ships of the same size would be a good start though. Given their nature as sedentary devices (i.e.: they do their job by standing still), I'd like somewhere between cruiser and battle-cruiser tankability. But by no means should the Mackinaw have second best yield, second best tank and a vast ore bay. It has to lose something in the trade.

I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well. If the HAC/HIC/Recon/Logi decides to select something other than tank and sit there unawares then yes it should be possible to profitably gank them.