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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
737
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Posted - 2013.02.11 04:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: The missiles ones don't really add-up tho. A cerberus with T2 BCU and heavy launcher for example has less isk fitted than a full T2 mack. I guess it's the same for the other T2 missile cruiser. Laser and hybrid seems to depend on which weapon you run but they can be higher by a good margin.
How many millions of isk need to be fitted to become profitable?
It's all controlled by the market so the answer to that is ~it depends~. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3075
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well.
So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2654
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:05:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:La Nariz wrote:I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well. So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?
They tend to be at their keyboards and able to make life difficult for the gankers.
Just like miners can. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
737
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Posted - 2013.02.11 05:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:La Nariz wrote:I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well. So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers?
I can think of three factors, it wasn't as widely publicized (no tenguageddon), there are less tengus than their are exhumers in PVE activities, and those people are more willing to adapt/learn from their mistakes. As can be seen from minerbumping.com highsec miners are very stubborn which means they are more likely to refuse to learn from what happened, I cannot prove that the tengu pilots are less/more/equally stubborn but based on forum participation by them I think it is more likely that they are less stubborn than highsec miners.
E: Make that four, tengu pilots are less likely to be AFK.
E2: Tengu pilots have the ability to kill the ganker. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.02.11 05:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Yummy
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
313
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Posted - 2013.02.11 05:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:La Nariz wrote:I gave the example of the faction/officer fit because it is the most memorable for me. You can profit off of ganking T2 fit active tanked tengus as well. So why aren't active tanked tengus dying as much as exhumers? They tend to be at their keyboards and able to make life difficult for the gankers. Miners have similar options. They simply choose not to employ them.
I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right? |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2335
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:16:00 -
[67] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?
It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
739
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right?
Everyone goes straight for max yield because their are currently no downsides for doing so. Using a DCU would reduce yield. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
316
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right? It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it.
COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid.
And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
739
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right? It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it. COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid. And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before?
It costs very little cap and prevents the fitting of an MLU which reduces isk/hr. It can auto repeat and yes they did use to be structure based. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2335
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Posted - 2013.02.11 05:24:00 -
[71] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right? It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it. COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid. And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before?
No, that's pretty much it. It uses 1gj on cap per cycle, has a huge cycle time & takes a low slot.
Yes, but you could get 36k EHP with a good shield fit tank. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
316
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:25:00 -
[72] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:I never used a DCU but unless it has a CD to prevent it from always running, a mack is cap stable running it even with an adaptive invulnerability field II.
There must be something wrong with that or everybody terrorized of gettign ganked would run that right? It's a low slot. They aren't prepared to lose yield to fit it. COmmon. There must be something else. Like it can't keep on going right? Can't auto repeat? I mean it's so stupid. And weren't the exhumer EHP based on structure before? It costs very little cap and prevents the fitting of an MLU which reduces isk/hr. It can auto repeat and yes they did use to be structure based.
I WAS LIED TO!!!!
The average EvE player is not more intelligent than a WoW player!
GAWD!!!!!
All hulkageddon could of been stopped at the cost of 9% yield...
I'm ... |
March rabbit
player corp n1
521
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
La Nariz wrote: Those are the points I don't agree with. The profitability of ganking was tied to the market just the same as the profitability of mining. Granted you shouldn't be making a profit off of ganking completely unfitted hulls, the income amount of that activity should be tied to RNG. In that situation sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose. The ganking of people that chose to go for yield at expense of tank should be profitable though. The person decided to risk it all for the maximum reward part of maximizing the risk should be that you can be profitably ganked if you are not playing smart. How profitable is arbitrary and I'm not going to argue numbers.
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner. They have virtually no tank without activating his hardeners so if caught unaware they're going to die. They both maxed their reward but also maximized their risk.
We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun.... His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.
EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE
Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.
Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2335
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:La Nariz wrote: Those are the points I don't agree with. The profitability of ganking was tied to the market just the same as the profitability of mining. Granted you shouldn't be making a profit off of ganking completely unfitted hulls, the income amount of that activity should be tied to RNG. In that situation sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose. The ganking of people that chose to go for yield at expense of tank should be profitable though. The person decided to risk it all for the maximum reward part of maximizing the risk should be that you can be profitably ganked if you are not playing smart. How profitable is arbitrary and I'm not going to argue numbers.
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner. They have virtually no tank without activating his hardeners so if caught unaware they're going to die. They both maxed their reward but also maximized their risk.
We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun.... His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk. EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE Do they profitable to gank? Not sure. Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.
Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2655
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun.... His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.
EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE
Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.
Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.
EWAR would have worked great to disrupt gankers. So would a 650mm Nado (takes 2 volleys just like 800s, but better tracking and higher ROF).
The Suicide Ganker maximised his risk by fitting no ECCM or Tank. Everybody knew that they fit no ECCM or Tank, and the GCC mechanics mean that the defender (with ECM or DPS) doesn't need to worry about losing their ship.
ECM Drones would commonly keep an awake Hulk pilot from being blown up.
In addition, the Suicide Ganker has a guaranteed loss of his ship, meaning that a bad loot drop can easily make a gank unprofitable even if everything else went perfectly. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
March rabbit
player corp n1
521
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:33:00 -
[76] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:March rabbit wrote:La Nariz wrote: Those are the points I don't agree with. The profitability of ganking was tied to the market just the same as the profitability of mining. Granted you shouldn't be making a profit off of ganking completely unfitted hulls, the income amount of that activity should be tied to RNG. In that situation sometimes you will win and sometimes you will lose. The ganking of people that chose to go for yield at expense of tank should be profitable though. The person decided to risk it all for the maximum reward part of maximizing the risk should be that you can be profitably ganked if you are not playing smart. How profitable is arbitrary and I'm not going to argue numbers.
We can extend this idea to mission runners/ratters/T2 fit combat ships. The dude who active tanks their faction or officer mission running/ratting tengu is in the same boat as the max yield miner. They have virtually no tank without activating his hardeners so if caught unaware they're going to die. They both maxed their reward but also maximized their risk.
We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun.... His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk. EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE Do they profitable to gank? Not sure. Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation. Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable. you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3?
OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
739
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun.... His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.
EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE
Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.
Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.
Let's apply it to this situation. Assume a T2 fit catalyst, it has:
[Catalyst, PVP - Suicide Gank] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Ship Scanner I Limited 1MN Afterburner I
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
Hobgoblin II x1
3,848 EHP and 600~ dps. This is my fit I used for ganking so your mileage may vary.
It's fit for all gank and no tank, you could probably alpha it with a rupture if you wanted to. Remember the suicide ganker's risk is not "will the ship survive" it's "what will drop." Should you gank the above you most certainly could profit off of it.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2336
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:37:00 -
[78] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable. you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3? OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts
I mean exactly what I said. You can profitably gank a T2 fit Tier 3 BC. According to the logic of CCP, Tier 3 BC's need an EHP buff. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2655
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:47:00 -
[79] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:March rabbit wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable. you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3? OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts I mean exactly what I said. You can profitably gank a T2 fit Tier 3 BC. According to the logic of CCP, Tier 3 BC's need an EHP buff.
Just like Hulk-Fit Zealots. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
317
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 05:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:March rabbit wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable. you mean suicide ganker is in tier 3? OK. But mostg of gankers use T1 fitted Catalysts I mean exactly what I said. You can profitably gank a T2 fit Tier 3 BC. According to the logic of CCP, Tier 3 BC's need an EHP buff. Just like Hulk-Fit Zealots.
How many tears can a hulk fitted zealot harvest? |
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
293
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 06:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
The problem is not, that it takes more destroyers to kill a mining barge. The problem is also not, that they are not profitable to gank for an income. Now you need to have a goal to accomplish in order to make ganking them profitable. That's a good thing.
The real problem is, that there are well known players out there, who believe that afk or solo miners are cooperating or socializing while they mine. Remove insurance. |
RAP ACTION HERO
149
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 06:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Why do the goons spend inordinate amounts of time crying about miners in highsec?
Because what they do allows them to pad their kb with all their leet pvp. Otherwise the complaint would have to deal with actual combat not ganks. Ooh hey my industrials are tanked to survive 10k alpha while having full load. Does this make me ignoring core concepts as I can now survive a gank. Also I salute you brave random Jita shooter for being willing to shoot at me and my 1 billion cargo. Even if you may have done a spit take and ruined your keyboard. Ooh wait what of all my warships that are tanked in the mids and fitted for gank in the highs and lows does this violate your beleifs? My bs are immune to your ganks even untanked and with all racks empty. Really you just arent using the right tool for the job is the issue. If you want to kill the miner go grab a brutix and use that instead of your elcheapo dessie. Or just spin up alts and bring several dessies and gank that way.
but but but i want casual-friendly solo gameplay, meaning not wis dudes emoting each other but gank in my one destroyer.
Watch classic boxing if you like good fights. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3076
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 06:33:00 -
[83] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable.
So why aren't autopiloting T3 BCs ganked in Uedama? What about the T2 & faction gank-fit Oracle that I regularly autopilot through Uedama with a hold full of faction crystals? Why isn't that ganked?
Why aren't mining ships continually moving? Could it be that setting up bookmarks and navigating between them is simply so much effort that the actively playing pilot is going to be better rewarded running missions, incursions or even hauling contracts rather than staring at rocks?
Perhaps it's simply the case that Goonswarm isn't posting a 10M bounty on every Oracle killed?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2655
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 06:45:00 -
[84] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Suicide ganking a Tier 3 BC is profitable. So why aren't autopiloting T3 BCs ganked in Uedama? What about the T2 & faction gank-fit Oracle that I regularly autopilot through Uedama with a hold full of faction crystals? Why isn't that ganked? Why aren't mining ships continually moving? Could it be that setting up bookmarks and navigating between them is simply so much effort that the actively playing pilot is going to be better rewarded running missions, incursions or even hauling contracts rather than staring at rocks? Perhaps it's simply the case that Goonswarm isn't posting a 10M bounty on every Oracle killed?
So protecting stupid people who make stupid choices is a game balance goal now?
Being active and intelligent let you safely run in a tankless setup for maximum income. Being inactive and intelligent let you run a tanked setup for slightly less income, but no need to be active.
You're arguing that an inactive idiot who takes no precautions to protect himself should be unprofitable to gank (and thus exactly as safe as the other two guys and make a higher income than the second guy). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3792
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 06:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: The problem is that, with no effort whatsoever by the miner, they are unprofitable to gank (and thus unlikely to be ganked). Unlike any other fitted T2 ship (fit with guns, damage mods, no tank, just like the average Mack).
Before the silly EHP buff, miners could actually put time and effort into keeping themselves safe, or put neither in and roll the dice.
Incorrect statement, as usual.
Untanked Mack has 11625 hit points. Before the buff they were usually attacked by 2-3 catalysts and it was profitable.
Now how many catalysts are needed say in 0.7 to kill it? What about 0.5 sec? Still unprofitable? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
400
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:09:00 -
[86] - Quote
Thread locked for cleanup. ISD LackOfFaith Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:49:00 -
[87] - Quote
Selective moderation.
I guess it all boils down to "who" is doing the "trolling" as to whether or not the white knights ride in to save the day.
Its pretty hilarious and obvious that some alliances get away with anything the want around here.
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
400
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Posted - 2013.02.11 07:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
Just a reminder:
Quote: 10. Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please file a petition.
If you believe you are being treated unfairly, please file a petition or report for CCP staff to review ISD actions. ISD LackOfFaith Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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baltec1
Bat Country
5123
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Posted - 2013.02.11 08:13:00 -
[89] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Incorrect statement, as usual.
Untanked Mack has 11625 hit points. Before the buff they were usually attacked by 2-3 catalysts and it was profitable.
Now how many catalysts are needed say in 0.7 to kill it? What about 0.5 sec? Still unprofitable?
Yes.
The mack is the problem ship as the hulk, coveter and retriever are all profitable to gank if they are untanked. The mack is not profitable even without a tank and when coupled with the largest ore bay we see the reason why it is the most popular barge on the market and why ganking of exhumers is at an all time low. Changes do need to happen because right now the barge lineup is broken and the goals of teircide have not been met. |
March rabbit
player corp n1
521
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 08:14:00 -
[90] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:March rabbit wrote: We can extend your idea to suicide gankers. The dude who dedicates all the fitting for max DPS and puts 1 round of ammo into each gun.... His maximized his reward but also maximized his risk.
EWAR/tank/whatever? NOPE
Do they profitable to gank? Not sure.
Result: your idea can't be applied to every situation.
EWAR would have worked great to disrupt gankers. So would a 650mm Nado (takes 2 volleys just like 800s, but better tracking and higher ROF). The Suicide Ganker maximised his risk by fitting no ECCM or Tank. Everybody knew that they fit no ECCM or Tank, and the GCC mechanics mean that the defender (with ECM or DPS) doesn't need to worry about losing their ship. ECM Drones would commonly keep an awake Hulk pilot from being blown up. In addition, the Suicide Ganker has a guaranteed loss of his ship, meaning that a bad loot drop can easily make a gank unprofitable even if everything else went perfectly. it's all OK but you didn't answer to my question.
Miner: fits for max REWARD, min TANK. Should be profitable to suicide gank? You say: YES. Suicide ganker: fits for max REWARD (DPS), no TANK. Should it be be profitable to suicide gank?
You right, ganker loses his ship anyway. But this is outside of question about Eve Online fitting ideology "trade off". Either we use this ideology or not. You accuse miners for ignoring it. But we have suicide gankers who does not have such "trade offs".
At the end i don't think we should point fingers to miners for ignoring "fitting trade offs" unless whole suicide ganking works outside of this ideology (which is THE MAIN fitting ideology of Eve Online) |
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