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Sasha Khaine
Dr. Wolfgang
116
   |
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Man I would love a bonus remap though I don't really think it's necessary. Aren't there any other useful skills you can keep training? I find it hard to believe everything is maxed out in your current attribute setup.
"The entire British empire was built on cups of tea... and if you think I'm going to war without one mate. You're mistaken." |
Aren Madigan
EVE University
Ivy League
68
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Not disagreeing with you entirely, but you'd greatly reduce the number. Given the number of people who can't interpret a clearly worded dev blog about how skills will change, I don't think you'd reduce the numbers at all. Some people are just completely ******* ********.
Hahahahahaha
No
That's almost like saying them not having on the launcher ever at all wouldn't make a difference. And yet there's a reason its there in the first place, and the longer its there the more people who see it. Its a very similar concept to how commercials on TV or banner ads, or advertising in general works. The more visible something is, the more that know about it, the more its on people's mind. This kind of thing is the entire theory behind why advertising is done, and its been proven to work. And you think by some magic, this situation is SO different, despite having a very similar target, increasing people's awareness, that it wouldn't do so. Please tell me that isn't what you're saying... |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
306
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 21:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Pohbis wrote:Now I know that the reason is because of the blurp about "Ship skill training has been further adjusted when necessary to include specialized module requirements." - but the thing is, before these changes, people were free to take a short de-tour into charisma training in order to get the pre-req for command ships. After these changes, that's going to be quite a hefty de-tour into charisma training, that you'll need even if you never intend to fit a gang-link on your command ship. GǪagain, nine days. It's not a hefty detour by any stretch of the imagination. It also means that if you intend to fly a command ship, then you should think about actually using it asGǪ you knowGǪ a command ship, and rethink that policy of never fitting gang links. It's no different than requiring Propulsion Jamming (and now Graviton Physics) for your HIC GÇö it's kind of the point of having the ship. No, not 9 days. More like a month of extra training for people who do not intend to fly them in the booster role.
And no, it is not any different than requiring the skills for the interdiction sphere launcher and warp disruption generator for 'dics and hics. That doesn't make it any more right tho.
Let people train for the hull. Don't dictate how they're going to use it.
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Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 03:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Karl Hobb wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Thanks for the extreme thought put into this. Would you care to explain or are those the only 2 words you know how to post. Ifly Uwalk wrote:No.
Edit: htfu I see three words... HTFU is not a word. Try using it in Scrabble and people will shout at you.
If you tried to get them to play Scrabble people are probably already shouting at you. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3441
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 03:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Joran Dravius wrote:
If you tried to get them to play Scrabble people are probably already shouting at you.
Then how about Naked Crisco Twister ?
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1080
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 03:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:That's almost like saying them not having on the launcher ever at all wouldn't make a difference.
It wouldn't have. Before the launcher there was still news shown on game launch.
If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2665
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 05:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
It takes 54d to train from 0 SP to Command Ships 1 with no implants and no remap.
There are more than 54 days between now and the time the pre-reqs will be changed.
Most of that is the 35 days of BC 5, which you should have trained starting months ago.
Your complaints are idiotic.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2345
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 08:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fredric Wolf wrote:Say you set out your year training before all of the changes were posted by CCP on how the ship skills were going to be changed. After they change the ship prerequisites your neural map might not be be the most efficient. What I am asking is would giving all players a bonus remap during the expansion when all of these skills go live be uncalled for?
It happens, get over it.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Ai Shun
869
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 08:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:HTFU is not a word. Try using it in Scrabble and people will shout at you.
At which point, if that is the limit of your wits, you could respond with HTFU and throw the Scrabble board upside down like a true EVE player :)
EVE Ambulation and Avatars as a separate game - see here |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:36:00 -
[40] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Joran Dravius wrote:
If you tried to get them to play Scrabble people are probably already shouting at you.
Then how about Naked Crisco Twister ?
How did you know my favorite game? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12851
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:No, not 9 days. More like a month of extra training for people who do not intend to fly them in the booster role. Yes, nine days. That's all the GÇ£extraGÇ¥ time you need that would be helped by a remap. If you're not flying them as command ships, why are you training them?
Oh, and if you want to get really pedantic, let's see how awful that GÇ£extraGÇ¥ training is, shall we?
Before:
24 ranks to V
24 ranks to IV
2 ranks to II
9 ranks to I
Gêæ 7,235,174 SP (roughly 112 days at max speed)
GǪjust for the bare minimums, and you couldn't really use it properly at that point.
After:
16 ranks to V
6 ranks to IV
9 ranks to III
9 ranks to I
Gêæ 4,441,774 SP (69 days at max speed; 88 days or so if you happen to do it on a consistently bad remap).
GǪand by then, you actually have some base skills that suit its role. So it's not a month of extra training GÇö it's actually a month less of irrelevant training compared to the current setup. Oh, and those SP includes a number of skill levels you have already trained, so it actually comes out at less than that.
Quote:And no, it is not any different than requiring the skills for the interdiction sphere launcher and warp disruption generator for 'dics and hics. That doesn't make it any more right tho. Sure it does. Command ships now have a designated role, like all T2, rather than being some amorphously defined and rather meaningless +1 Battlecruiser. If you want to fly one, it's a good idea to train for leadership, much like how it's a good idea to train for remote reps and cap transfers if you want to fly a logi. If you want a ship that lets you go bonkers with how you fit it, they will still let you do that, but if you want one where you don't train for a role, the standard T1 BC is what you're looking for.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
March rabbit
player corp n1
532
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 10:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ifly Uwalk wrote:Karl Hobb wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Thanks for the extreme thought put into this. Would you care to explain or are those the only 2 words you know how to post. Ifly Uwalk wrote:No.
Edit: htfu I see three words... This. Can't a dude get no respect?
actually there is 3 words and 2 symbols ("." and ":")
so you all failed miserably.
And no respect to you all! |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
310
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Oh, and if you want to get really pedantic, let's see how awful that GÇ£extraGÇ¥ training is, shall we?. No, I don't want to get pedantic. You are however, refusing to acknowledge the fact that people fly command ships without training for the ganglinks and constantly regurgitating the "9 days difference".
Command ships don't have any more of a defined role now, than they had before. Unless of course you have some information that CCP hasn't shared with us.
Even if you did, requiring people to train for specific modules they never plan to use isn't "any more right".
If a BC pilot wants to upgrade to T2 resists, or for any other reason wants to fly a CS, they shouldn't be forced to train for gang-links. BC and T3 can fit gang-links to.
You are going in circles with your arguments. Yes, for a carbon copy CS fit, it's a 9 days difference. Not everybody flies carbon copy fits tho
Flying hulls with "unintended" and non-bonused fits has created some of the most interesting content in EVE fitting-wise.
Stop trying to dictate how people should fly their ships.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12854
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 11:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:You are however, refusing to acknowledge the fact that people fly command ships without training for the ganglinks and constantly regurgitating the "9 days difference". Yeah, no.
For the ones flying CS without leadership skills right now, there will be no difference at all.
For the ones flying it in the future, the nine days' difference is what they'll have to contend with if they don't want to remap (and a reason why a bonus remap would be rather meaningless for such a small change).
Above all, I'm saying that what people did in the past doesn't matter. The ships are now being given the role they were sorely lacking, and this is a good thing GÇö entirely in line with the whole ship revamp we're going through. Their getting cheaper and faster to train for, and their getting more relevant skills tied to them are both consequences of this and it's pretty much how they should have been to begin with.
Quote:Command ships don't have any more of a defined role now, than they had before. GǪaside from requiring the relevant skills and being able to fit the proper modules to a much higher degree than before. CS pilots will have both the ability and the opportunity to fulfil this role in a way that isn't really possible with the current lineup.
Quote:If a BC pilot wants to upgrade to T2 resists GǪyeah, see, that's not what T2 is for. It's not something you get to GÇ£upgrade your resistsGÇ¥. T2 is something you get to fill a specific role. If you want to fly a repair ship, you could fly the support cruisers or you could train for the role-specific Logistics class. If you want to tackle people, you could fly one of the fast frigates, or you could train for the role-specific Interceptor class. If you want to kill tons of rats, you could fly a big ol' L4 battleship or you could train for the role-specific Marauder. Some roles are even uniquely available only as T2, such as bubbles and supercap tackle. In some cases, these roles also provide you with higher resists, but that's not the raison d'+¬tre for T2.
You can still fit them to your liking GÇö that ability is not being removed. If you want to train for them in the future, you just have to go through a vaguely role-specific skill path, like with all other T2. Again: as expected and in line with how T2 is supposed to work.
Quote:or for any other reason wants to fly a CS, they shouldn't be forced to train for gang-links. BC and T3 can fit gang-links to. Fun fact: you still won't have to train for gang links to fly CS with this change, but CS is given a good fleet command foundation to better fit their intended role. This is also why T3 are getting their links altered: to ensure that CS will be better GÇö more specialised GÇö at it.
Quote:You are going in circles with your arguments. Yes, for a carbon copy CS fit, it's a 9 days difference. Not everybody flies carbon copy fits tho Unfortunately, this is not what I'm doing, no. I have never talked about fits. I have talked about training and remaps GÇö you know, the topic of the thread? Maybe you should actually try to read what those 9 days come from? Hmm? While you're trying out this newfangled GÇ£readingGÇ¥-thing, you should probably also have a look at how much I GÇ£dictateGÇ¥ the use of the hulls. You're really pushing the whole strawman angle right now, you knowGǪ
The only circularity here is that you read around the actual points being made and inventing your own to respond to.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
310
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The only circularity here is that you read around the actual points being made and inventing your own to respond to. I am not inventing anything.
You are however continuously refusing to acknowledge that people fly their ships differently. Now you're even claiming what "T2 ships are for". What exactly are assault frigates and heavy assault cruisers if not a linear upgrade from T1?
You are going in circles arguing with spreadsheet answers and go on and on about how people "have to train something anyway."
I know fully well that the OP was about a remap to compensate, and that your "9 days!" is a perfectly valid answer to that.
That's not the only discussion in this thread however, and I am not arguing for a re-map. I am arguing the line of thought that changing the pre-reqs to include training for modules that really aren't needed for the hull is "a good thing". I'm sadly not surprised that your answer to that is; "oh, but you don't have to train all the way for it".
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12855
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 13:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:I am not inventing anything. GǪapart from your strawmen about it being about fits, or about forcing gameplay, or restricting choices, or the direct falsehood that it takes longer under the new scheme.
Quote:Now you're even claiming what "T2 ships are for". No I'm not. CCP are, and it's not like it's anything new GÇö it's how it has always been ever since the T2 ships were introduced. Some ships didn't particularly fit into the mould, but then that's what the whole tiercide/ship revamp is about: to make things work consistently according to the overarching pattern of intent and design.
Quote:What exactly are assault frigates and heavy assault cruisers if not a linear upgrade from T1? For one, they suck at logistics, ewar, tackling, exploration, and (previously) mining. For another, like all T2, they are a specialisation, specifically into damage-dealing (either through brawling or sniping). If you try to GÇ£upgradeGÇ¥ from an Osprey to a Cerberus, you'll be hideously disappointed by how much worse the T2 is. Maybe your notion of a linear upgrade differs from mine, but I'd rather expect the upgrade to perform better than what I uppgraded from. HACs (and AFs) don't do that, which seems to suggest that they're not linear upgrades.
Quote:You are going in circles arguing with spreadsheet answers and go on and on about how people "have to train something anyway." GǪso that's two more inventions to the list. You know, if you have to rely on fallacies as your only argument, it means you have no point to begin with. At best, it makes you uninformed; at worst, it makes you a deliberate liar. Neither is a good thing. Instead, try getting a point first and then arguing using actual arguments to support it.
Quote:I am arguing the line of thought that changing the pre-reqs to include training for modules that really aren't needed for the hull is "a good thing". Good news: nothing of the kind is happening. What's happening is that, just like with all other T2, some skills that will fit into the intended role for the ship are being included in the ship prereqs. This is indeed a good thing since it clarifies that role; since it drastically cuts out irrelevant stuff and reduces the training required; and since it means that people who are interested in pursuing this role can focus on a couple of key skill groups that are in line with what they need to train anyway to really be good at that role.
I'm also sadly not surprised that you end your post with another lie.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3442
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Joran Dravius wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Joran Dravius wrote:
If you tried to get them to play Scrabble people are probably already shouting at you.
Then how about Naked Crisco Twister ? How did you know my favorite game?
I heard about it from Michael Jackson 
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.-á-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Dutchess of Frothiness
Team Pizza
No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Say you set out your year training before all of the changes were posted by CCP on how the ship skills were going to be changed. After they change the ship prerequisites your neural map might not be be the most efficient. What I am asking is would giving all players a bonus remap during the expansion when all of these skills go live be uncalled for? Yes, uncalled for as none of the skill attributes for affected prereqs are changing. Charisma will not be required for any ship, I guarantee it.
What if it is the eve online version of "kip" from night rider? you'de need charisma to operate that...... |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1579
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dutchess of Frothiness wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Say you set out your year training before all of the changes were posted by CCP on how the ship skills were going to be changed. After they change the ship prerequisites your neural map might not be be the most efficient. What I am asking is would giving all players a bonus remap during the expansion when all of these skills go live be uncalled for? Yes, uncalled for as none of the skill attributes for affected prereqs are changing. Charisma will not be required for any ship, I guarantee it. What if it is the eve online version of "kip" from night rider? you'de need charisma to operate that......
1) Thread necromancy is bad m'kay.
2) Who the fark is "kip"?
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3199
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Dutchess of Frothiness wrote:What if it is the eve online version of "kip" from night rider? you'de need charisma to operate that...... 1) Thread necromancy is bad m'kay. 2) Who the fark is "kip"?
Dutchess of Frothiness wrote:What if it is the eve online version of "kip"KITT from night rider Knight Rider? you'de need charismaa ridiculously hairy chest to operate that......
Should be easier to read now that it's fixed
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:I do not need the remap. I am just tired of seeing on GD every day people demanding a SP reimbursement. I think that a bonus remap would be enough for everyone to cover the inconvenience of this. I have had all the correct skills trained up prior to the announced changes. I do not think anyone knew about the other changed that were listed in the most recent dev blog. This was only a suggestion.
I have a carrier pilot who trained up BS V and I think that skill is very useful. Please don't judge me by the memes of others. Sorry. Most people are of the mind that when skills become irrelevant, reimbursements are required, myself included.
Which "most" people would they be? It seems that "most" people in this thread do not think that. A different group of "most" people maybe? Ones that live in your head and have tea parties with scones?
Quote:1) Thread necromancy is bad m'kay.
Oh no, 2 whole months! |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon
The Marmite Collective
534
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
WTF Am I reading? I feel like I just got cancer from this thread. It's become apparent, you've gone too far, with DUST 514 CCP. We've got 7 year old suckling-from-the-mother children like the OP playing EVE now, who have no clue how foresight, or dev blogs work. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
4571
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 00:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:Command ship pre-reqs will require quite a lot more Leadership, ie. charisma training.
That's assuming you don't just go ahead and get the prereqs for the skill as they are now and inject it, to save yourself the trouble later.
Arronicus wrote:WTF Am I reading? I feel like I just got cancer from this thread. It's become apparent, you've gone too far, with DUST 514 CCP. We've got 7 year old suckling-from-the-mother children like the OP playing EVE now, who have no clue how foresight, or dev blogs work.
The **** does this have to do with DUST 514?
Malcanis for CSM 8
Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3200
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 00:47:00 -
[54] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:That's assuming you don't just go ahead and get the prereqs for the skill as they are now and inject it, to save yourself the trouble later.
Something that is possible for a 0d alt to do for the next day or so (you do miss Dessy 5 since about a week ago).
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Ifly Uwalk
Empire Tax Collection Agency
641
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 03:46:00 -
[55] - Quote
+1 for thread necro. I got two more Likes for a post I made two months ago, yay!  |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
322
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 09:43:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ifly Uwalk wrote:+1 for thread necro. I got two more Likes for a post I made two months ago, yay!
Have another one .
Remove insurance. |
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