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Gan Ning
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Posted - 2005.07.22 13:35:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: dadar
With the recent Missle changes <nerf>...blah blah blah
so once again PLEASE give us a new refited raven option.
No thanks, I quite like my raven how it is. As long as they have plans to add missile bonus implants and mid slot modules, I have no problem.
The raven being able to use 7 launchers perhaps would also be a gesture of goodwill for raven pilots.
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BoBoZoBo
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Posted - 2005.07.22 15:07:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Drilla
BUHU 
The Raven is BETTER post-patch than pre-patch if you actually train the skills and THINK about your fitting instead of just loading torps.
Learn and adapt and you will figure it out if you are not a complete <censored>.
Could not agree more!
I am a HUGE missile user since day one.
I thought my Scorpion would be useless now but after training all the new skills to even lvl 3, I can tell you that they actually IMPROVED the missiles. Lvl 4 and beyond must be incredible.
Sure I can't hit drones at less than 1K, but that is the way it should be. Torps are less powerful and cruise are more powerful. Its a good thing. I am a convert and if you take the above posters advice and actually THINK about your setup, you will kick *ss with a missleboat.
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Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.22 15:14:00 -
[33]
"The raven being able to use 7 launchers perhaps would also be a gesture of goodwill for raven pilots."
If Raven were given the extra firepower of additional missile in each salvo, you'd see the "omg wtf nerf it!" threads popping up with the rate faster than you can get from cruise launcher with fully trained skills... :s
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Abelonia
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Posted - 2005.07.22 15:30:00 -
[34]
The raven is better for pvp now yes that all you ppl seem to see but for us that dont do pvp and are mission runners its absolutely sucks nuf said.
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Mephistophilus
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Posted - 2005.07.22 16:03:00 -
[35]
dadar have you even trained all the skills past level 1???
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tolkenmoon
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Posted - 2005.07.22 16:23:00 -
[36]
I use a raven alot for missions (yes i am i mission runner) have all the new skills to lvl3 and 4 and find the damage poor, against any target.
I decided to take out my mega with 350 rails fitted (using iridium and antimater ammo) to it and found that it killed frigates and cruisers with ease hitting then for around 60 to 100 damage and more. My gunnery skills are slightly better than missile at the moment.
What gets me is the fact the there are 3 types of guns small medium and large, and can use ammoe to either be short range or long range.
Why do missile users have to have so many different launchers? why cant we have siege firing torps and cruise again heavys firing heavy and light missiles and assualts or rocket launchers firing rockets and defenders.
Also we can mount the least of out main weapon 6 launchers mega can fit max 7 and apoc can fit 8 of its main weapon, and befor people start shouting no they cant they have to gimp some setup or anothe to do that, the new advanced weapon skill knocks a considerable amount of the power required to fit a gun.
Gives us another launcher point to keep up with the random damage we now do.
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.07.22 16:31:00 -
[37]
train for a different race if you want guns. Caldari are fine as they are.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2005.07.22 17:47:00 -
[38]
Caldari are fine, people are already starting to come up with new fits post patch that are actually very good. The raven has always been overpowered; an agent powerhouse, almost immune to frigates thanks to torps and cruise, a very decent tanker, able to deal the same damage at all ranges and very powerful in short range combat. The missile changes have nerfed it, sure, but not even close to the point where it's useless.
The Raven can still hold a decent tank, it still has the ability to use every damage type in the game to its maximum potential (even Minmatar can't do that), it still does the same damage regardless of range or tracking and still performs well close range vs other BS. Really the only major change is its now inability to hit frigates for any meaningful damage, which brings it right on par with the other BS in the game in that regard.
Missiles are every bit as effective as turrets in combat, just in different ways. Should I be whining that my 1400mm's can't hit at all under 15km due to tracking while your missiles can? Should I be whining that none of my ammo gives me only one damage type like missiles do? Should I be whining that in order to have my guns hit at long range I have to sacrifice a ton of damage by switching to low grade ammo?
If you're that upset about the missile changes train for a different ship, if that means you have to live without an uber shield tank that's too bad.
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Iceman21
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:46:00 -
[39]
When i first the hype about the missle changes in the Cold War update i was very worried, but the fact that CCP have introduced the new missle skills makes it better imo. Now instead of having a constant damage its more like turrets with skills increases linked to damage increases. I think this makes it more rewarding as you can see your damage increase with time. I fly a scorp atm and my torp damage to cruisers averages at about 200 but i've had a couple of 515 hits which i was chuffed about.
If your worried about frigs then train heavy drones, I take 6 with me on missions and they rip through frigs and cruisers.
I personally like the new missles 
Mwahahahaha
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Kaaii
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Posted - 2005.07.26 12:10:00 -
[40]
Am I to understand that target painters work for missles too??
I thought that was just a gunnery module.
yes/no?
"..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, then stand with One thousand sheep.."
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 26/07/2005 22:28:54
We've already had this discussion a few weeks ago, and we very thoroughly worked out the solution. It is called the Panther, and it is death and beauty in the perfect form. And I love it.
It's got:
8 high slots, 6 med slots, 4 low slots
7 turret hardpoints, 1 missile hardpoint
Bonuses are +5% large hybrid turret damage and +5% large hybrid turret rate of fire
Dronebay would either be very small, or nonexistant. We never really resolved that.
Now if only we could convince the Devs to code it in...
___________________________________________
^^^***---All things serve the Beam---***^^^
GDBT is recruiting! |
SpeedoMan
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:57:00 -
[42]
Edited by: SpeedoMan on 26/07/2005 22:58:17
Originally by: Xelios
...it still has the ability to use every damage type in the game to its maximum potential (even Minmatar can't do that), it still does the same damage regardless of range or tracking and still performs well close range vs other BS. Really the only major change is its now inability to hit frigates for any meaningful damage, which brings it right on par with the other BS in the game in that regard...
Um, you're kidding right? Raven nor any other caldari ship now don't even get close to "maximum potential" of damage, especially regardless of range and tracking. On the contrary, regardless of range, missiles will do equally sucky damage up close or far away, dependent primarily on only how big the target is and how fast it is going. Even against immobile structures, however, missiles still underperform other weapon types.
Other weapons can hit for full damage at any target at or near optimal range that is immobile or coming straight on. Not missiles, now, thanks to this insane nerf-patch.
I hopped in a kestrel back while training the new missile skills up, and went to go combat frigs & easy cruisers as a little no-worry test. I can affirm, FROM experience, that during training of ALL but 1 new missile skill, during combat, from scratch to L2 (easy enough during an extended combat session) there was no change. IN fact, at one point (obviously a bug) my ~25km range dropped to less than 9km before the missile expired. DOT was downright terrible, rate of fire insanely slow, damage very weak. Around an average of 30-40 max on any ship target. I once hit for 120damage, kinetic light missiles, against a structure object in a 3/10 complex (had to bring a friend, it was way too hard alone, instadeath)... oh 120 damage seems a lot, until you consider the uberlong firetimes, the fact that any good Small railgun/blaster user can get this easily, and that's with my caldari L5 frig skill and the kestrels kinetic damage bonus thereof.
I made a noob alt with only about 70k in gunnery skills, and went a testing, got a wrecking hybrid blaster shot of 208, & several good shots of 128. My main has now 1 mil sp in missiles.
Also consider this:
Gallente - needs ~12 gunnery skills now & prepatch to be good in combat
Amarr - needed/s ~12 gunnery skills to be good in combat
Minmatar - needed/s ~12 gunnery skills to be good in combat plus to properly load out a few ships they needed ~8 missiles skills... PRE-NERF PATCH. Add on a few optional missile skills now to be good & you have the problem I am going to mention below...
Caldari - needed BOTH 12 gunnery skills and 8 missile skills all well trained to do well at all with any/all of their ships (except Kestrel/Caracal requiring only 6 missile skills). A total of REQUIRED skills for you to be good in all caldari ships. Pre-patch. Now there's 14 "required" missile skills, plus those 12 "required" gunnery skills, for a grand total of 26 REQUIRED weapon skills a Caldari needs to train up to high levels.
I focus most on Caldari, but the same thing for Minmatar really, just they have a few more turret slots on most ships than Caldari do. This is in no way fair at all, to require 2 races only 12 weapon skills to train, while 2 other races have to train up 26 weapon skills... and 1 of those will still suck worse than the other 3 no matter what, due to built in ship & racial restrictions (no low slots, nerfed grid & cpu, less cap, lack of appropriate bonuses)
Soban... red all the way through and through |
TECOR
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Posted - 2005.07.26 23:40:00 -
[43]
Light missiles, Heavy missiles, cruise missiles, torps..
Select your missiles correctly, mix your setup with other launchers..
Train the skills...
Stop please Stop...
Surely this can't be so hard to understand....can it??
"Remember my name Amarr you will come to fear it"
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Black Lung
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Posted - 2005.07.26 23:47:00 -
[44]
As it was previously said, stop whining and train up the missile skills.
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Gunship
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Posted - 2005.07.26 23:54:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Black Lung
As it was previously said, stop whining and train up the missile skills.
errr NO
take the resent 200 pilot battle in E02..
out of the BS pressent how many do you think where ravens?
there where a lot more of the other lvl 2 BS (with good reason).... so thats why we ask for a review of the raven...
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Black Lung
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Posted - 2005.07.26 23:56:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Black Lung on 26/07/2005 23:56:52
If you ask me, it seems you guys have ditched the Raven because you don't want to spend the extra time and ISK to become "Godlike" again.
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Lisa Run
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Posted - 2005.07.27 00:29:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Lisa Run on 27/07/2005 00:34:05
Originally by: dadar
turrets do same dmg no matter what the target type if they can hit it they can kill it. getting close to targets with turrets can be a problem but like I said if you use good tactics and correct range you can destroy any target before they get half way close enough to avoid your guns tracking speed.
AFAIK: Damage of the turrets is randomized by signature resolution of the gun vs. signature radius of the target, so it's not same damage vs. all sorts of targets, but surely same max-damage. Missiles don't have the random part, but just do always less damage on smaller targets. So IMHO both things have the same effect.
What's totally different is tracking speed vs. transversal velocity of the turrets on the one hand and explosion velocity vs. absolute target speed on the other hand. => It should be easier to kill a robust 0.0 npc fregatte that's approaching with 500 m/s with 1400mm Howitzers at 110km range than with cruises/torps, because missiles suffer damage reduction by absolute velocity. Guns don't have this problem, because an approaching target means zero transversal velocity, so no penalty except the signature radius, until it comes nearer and tries to go in it's orbit.
On the other hand, you should not be able to damage an orbitting fregatte with 800mm autocannons, because of the tracking speed (except it's extremly slow/webbed). So oversized missiles should perform much better than oversized guns vs. small targets at close range.
I didn't test it lately, but it's just logical if you look at the math behind it and the strength and weaknesses of missiles and gun system.
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TECOR
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Posted - 2005.07.27 00:44:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Gunship
Originally by: Black Lung
As it was previously said, stop whining and train up the missile skills.
errr NO
take the resent 200 pilot battle in E02..
out of the BS pressent how many do you think where ravens?
there where a lot more of the other lvl 2 BS (with good reason).... so thats why we ask for a review of the raven...
Actualy i can't be bothered......it's just not worth my time.....Read all of this thread.....when you get to the bits you don't understand, read them again slowly, think about it...then go back to the Raven and use what you have learnt.
"Remember my name Amarr you will come to fear it"
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.07.27 02:54:00 -
[49]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/07/2005 02:56:00
its just solo players now who are ****** in there ravens/scorps when out numberd by frigs with bs now.
befor i never ran 95% of the time i would stand and fight but now i dont. since i cant jam as well cycling from ship to ship i will just have too run.
intersepters just move in on me too fast too counter them safly. sucks..
combat is just getting too the point now where i dont realy see the skill in it anymore just who got the skills training better then who for the most part.
ill take the old days in eve anyday over these new ones in combat. its just group up single out a ship and fire away then call it a win .. :)
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.27 06:15:00 -
[50]
"It's called logistics."
More like hand waving, tbh... >>;
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.27 06:29:00 -
[51]
Edited by: j0sephine on 27/07/2005 06:32:39
"Are you sure about that?
It's already hard to fit 6 siege and 2 NOS, not sure 2 extra missile slots would yield so much power since you'd have to fill your lows with PDS/RCUs."
Well, with the Advanced Weapon Upgrades fully trained it seems like you should be able to fit 7 Siege Launchers II and would be left with ~360 mw spare and all low slots. With one RCU II the free grid would grow to ~2150 mw... that's enough to fit 8 siege II's with nearly 500 grid spare... and still the room for 4 damage mods? that'd be roughly 5 k damage per salvo every 7-8 sec against regular resistances, on average... would hurt -.x
(siege launchers are much lighter on the grid than heavy nosferatu)
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poisoner orbius
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Posted - 2005.07.27 06:45:00 -
[52]
you dont like a raven, buy yourself a gunboat 
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Shut up
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Posted - 2005.07.27 07:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Drilla
BUHU
The Raven is BETTER post-patch than pre-patch if you actually train the skills and THINK about your fitting instead of just loading torps.
Learn and adapt and you will figure it out if you are not a complete <censored>.
Total crap! Rethink what you know and what you THINK you know before posting such tripe please. The rest of us would really appreciate it. Have a nice day :)
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SpaceDrake Storyteller
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Posted - 2005.07.27 07:14:00 -
[54]
And what, pray tell, was total crap about that statement?
Pre-patch, I think Light Missiles had a range of, what, 20KM? I think they go out to 40 now, with skills up to 4.
--------------
What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?
Player of the character "Lucca Deradi." Former player of "Andre Ricard." |
Sorja
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: poisoner orbius
you dont like a raven, buy yourself a gunboat
Would like to mate, really would like to...
Unfortunately, there are already so many slow skills to raise that switching to another race is well beyond many's patience.
Why couldn't the Raven, like the Ferox, have a true option between missiles and guns?
A 8 highs, with 6 turret/6 missile hardpoints would be cool, and since missiles are now faster, the missile velocity bonus for the Raven (and Crow) could be changed to something that would make large guns worth using.
Anyays, I still think the Scorpion should be the gunboat, as often suggested and never commented by the devs.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:10:00 -
[56]
Originally by: SpaceDrake Storyteller
And what, pray tell, was total crap about that statement?
Nothing, actually. You were spot on, when one takes into consideration the new skills.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Arain
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:32:00 -
[57]
It does seem that it would be reasonable to make it possible to equipt 8 launchers as they are the ravens specialality. As a Apoc can equipt 8 guns it seems reasonable that a raven could do the same with launchers. I know it would be very nice to be able to use 2 assault launchers and 6 cruise at the same time. Currently its tough to get a load out that allows you to fight spawns with all classes of ships in them. A Apoc can be set up with all the same type of gun and only have to use one damage module to get a benifit from all of its ordinace. It should be the same situation with a Raven. Due to the nerf we already have to damage our shield tanking ability to equipt a target painter just to try and get our damage back to a reasonable range.
I am certain that the anti raven crowd will cry foul though and say things to the effect of "Oh no that would make it way to powerfull if they put 8 siege launchers they would shread other BS at close range in PvP".
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Khargos
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:43:00 -
[58]
you'l note the usual pvp circlejerk posting about how much better the raven is.
YEAH, ITS BETTER FOR PVP, WE KNOW THAT.
as for PvE turret ships are now far superior, as it takes a very expensive setup and lame skill-sink time to use raven for lvl 4's again.
so just sell your raven, buy an apoc or mega, or keep it for pvp, as that is all that is good for.
maybe ccp should just release all new battleships for all races, i think that would be nice.
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Hal2
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Posted - 2005.07.27 18:24:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Khargos
you'l note the usual pvp circlejerk posting about how much better the raven is.
YEAH, ITS BETTER FOR PVP, WE KNOW THAT.
as for PvE turret ships are now far superior, as it takes a very expensive setup and lame skill-sink time to use raven for lvl 4's again.
so just sell your raven, buy an apoc or mega, or keep it for pvp, as that is all that is good for.
maybe ccp should just release all new battleships for all races, i think that would be nice.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that, I have a tempest with 2 cruise and 2 siege launchers...tried it out against an enyo last night and was getting hits in the 7.5 range. I have all the new missle skills trained to 4 and was using the top named BAC - multiphasic -. I would expect poorer hits but this was just silly. Pretty light show though.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.07.27 23:36:00 -
[60]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/07/2005 23:40:42
Edited by: OffBeaT on 27/07/2005 23:39:42
Originally by: Arain
It does seem that it would be reasonable to make it possible to equipt 8 launchers as they are the ravens specialality. As a Apoc can equipt 8 guns it seems reasonable that a raven could do the same with launchers. I know it would be very nice to be able to use 2 assault launchers and 6 cruise at the same time. Currently its tough to get a load out that allows you to fight spawns with all classes of ships in them. A Apoc can be set up with all the same type of gun and only have to use one damage module to get a benifit from all of its ordinace. It should be the same situation with a Raven. Due to the nerf we already have to damage our shield tanking ability to equipt a target painter just to try and get our damage back to a reasonable range.
I am certain that the anti raven crowd will cry foul though and say things to the effect of "Oh no that would make it way to powerfull if they put 8 siege launchers they would shread other BS at close range in PvP".
Yes! Yes!..... i would like to see that as well. if a apoc can pack 8 guns and missiles so they say are too be more like turrets witch is BS too me, at lest the raven should beable too pack 8 launchers too = the apoc. i realy could use them assalt or small launchers on her for defance on frigs when npcing.
lets make this fair too the solo raven hunter who has too keep his fire power too npc but needs too defand against roming frig packs.
don't make me sell off my raven becouse i cant defand myself proper anymore solo in her. why should i have too give up my havey launchers just becouse i have too worry about frigs/intersepters getting the jump on me solo npcing. 
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