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Minmatar Capitals are being re-worked

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:31:00 - [61] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: [quote=Khanh'rhh]EDIT: just so we're keeping the argument in context, he's saying it's "abuse" that a shipclass with a bonus and slot layout favorable to passive shield tanking has an awesome passive shield tank. And because of this, it's totally reasonable and balanced that armor supercaps get a massive EHP boost over shield ones. Yes, its nonsense. 2-2,5k passive defence means absolutely nothing on supercap level and especially if you only get it at 30-33% shields. Example : Aeon - 35m ehp, 8 slots used for tank Wyvern - 25m ehp, 10 slots used for tank Then add slaves for aeon, add gang bonus for aeon and add titan bonus for aeon. No pirate implants for wyvern, no shield bonus if you dont have free time to rr the shields, same with titan bonus. - remove effect of slave set on capitals - make shield amount bonus from skills/implants/titan to not only increase max shields, but also current shields. - adjust the cpu needs for cst or cpu of some ships
UR13L THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD. 0	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:35:00 - [62] - Quote For the Niddy/Hel what do you think of changing the bonus itself to something more combat oriented. Theres already 2 carriers with resistance bonuses, and one with a dps bonus. Maybe make it something like: +x % drone and fighter tracking and +x% drone and fighter speed per level along with a mass reduction for quicker align times, and either faster cap recharge or a reduced cap requirement for jumping In keeping with the winmatar theme of hit fast and get out as necessary. The tracking bonus would be an indirect dps boost and gear it more for skirmish type fights. For the Nag, as said several times above, due to the increased training time and split weapons w/ 4 turret slots, it needs a DPS boost (and all dreads need a tracking boost). Cant really speak to the ragnarok
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:37:00 - [63] - Quote Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. E: for niddy just increse it from 5 to 7,5% or keep it at 5% and make it affect local reps too. Yes, it will suck for uberblobs and so, but it will become great triage carrier for smaller fights. Or maybe bonus that would make reps more efficient in terms of cap /both local and remote/. But its only point of view of low sec guy, so probably others will have better ideas.
Epiphaniess Verboten Technologies 195	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:46:00 - [64] - Quote Headerman wrote: Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals. Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok? It's crap get a Avatar instead.
Aamrr HnL Enterprise 76	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:47:00 - [65] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. If they improved the repair bonus to 7.5% and applied it to local reps as well, the Nidhoggur would be a very respectable triage platform. It'd get significantly stronger reps with slightly weaker tank, at the cost of extreme capacitor strain. I'd probably still prefer the Archon, but it's an option worth looking at.
UR13L THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD. 0	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:53:00 - [66] - Quote if it retains the repair bonus it should proabably also get a passive tank bonus (a little more armor maybe), for spider tank style tanking that doesnt include local reps. As it is now w/ the rep bonus and paper tank it always dies first
Epiphaniess Verboten Technologies 195	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:57:00 - [67] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS. I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:57:00 - [68] - Quote Spider tanking? How much nyxes it takes to kill a carrier in 15 secs?
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 197	Posted - 2011.10.13 20:59:00 - [69] - Quote Personally i think a Super Carrier is something that brings all the good things in EVE together: - High DPS - Very strong tank - The best mods - A very good alliance with good corpies The Hel, Nag and Nid need to step up, not drag the others down [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img]
UR13L THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD. 0	Posted - 2011.10.13 21:01:00 - [70] - Quote Epiphaniess wrote: Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS. I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps. Exactly. spider tanking can work well. Read some of the BRs from RnK or their pantheon video. And any carrier spider tanking or not cant stand up to X+10 nyxs
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.13 21:13:00 - [71] - Quote UR13L wrote: And any carrier spider tanking or not cant stand up to X+10 nyxs So id say, with numbers of supercarriers that are in game, panteon carriers are actually obsolete. Because even in lowsec its pretty much impossible to get cap fight without supercarriers interfering these days. Better not base future buffs on niddys viability for this tactics.
Epiphaniess Verboten Technologies 196	Posted - 2011.10.13 21:31:00 - [72] - Quote Headerman wrote: Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals. Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok? The RagnarokGÇÖs Doomsday weapon is basically a bunch of missiles coming out and hitting a target. Wouldn't it be kind of neat and unique if it's doomsday could hit more than one target but less than say 10, basically all the targets you have locked. And they would have to be targets you do have locked no others. Have the Doomsday's damage divided between all of the targets in some kind of equation taking account ship sizes and other factors. Maybe have to balance that ability by making the Ragnarok's Doomsday weaker on a single target.
Dorian Wylde Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2011.10.13 22:08:00 - [73] - Quote Epiphaniess wrote: Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS. I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps. That's why I'm getting them. And I just live in a wormhole. It's even more important in null where sov structures come into play.
Diehard15 Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.10.13 22:19:00 - [74] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. E: for niddy just increse it from 5 to 7,5% or keep it at 5% and make it affect local reps too. Yes, it will suck for uberblobs and so, but it will become great triage carrier for smaller fights. Or maybe bonus that would make reps more efficient in terms of cap /both local and remote/. But its only point of view of low sec guy, so probably others will have better ideas. Having the Nidhoggurs bonus effect local reps would be a positive boost to it. The Capacitor Amount and CPU/Grid stats need to be increased also.
Epiphaniess Verboten Technologies 198	Posted - 2011.10.13 22:37:00 - [75] - Quote Dorian Wylde wrote: Epiphaniess wrote: Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos. I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS. I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps. That's why I'm getting them. And I just live in a wormhole. It's even more important in null where sov structures come into play. I said most people. Not everyone. Congrats on being a unique snowflake. And a sad, sad Cap pilot.
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 197	Posted - 2011.10.13 22:40:00 - [76] - Quote Has anyone else had a good close look at ammo for the x-large guns for the Nag? - short range ammo has an optimal of about 19km, medium about 31km. Is there any room to add more optimal or more damage? I have heard that a Phoenix usually gets top damage dealer on POS shoots? [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img]
Epiphaniess Verboten Technologies 198	Posted - 2011.10.13 23:09:00 - [77] - Quote Headerman wrote: Has anyone else had a good close look at ammo for the x-large guns for the Nag? - short range ammo has an optimal of about 19km, medium about 31km. Is there any room to add more optimal or more damage? I have heard that a Phoenix usually gets top damage dealer on POS shoots? Projectiles have never been about optimal range, they have always been about fallout. When you are a projectile jockey you tend to forget about there being such a thing as optimal and focus on fallout efficiency. I don't think more X-large projectile optimal range is the answer.
Rael Nazari The Ankou Raiden. 0	Posted - 2011.10.13 23:10:00 - [78] - Quote Headerman wrote: Mfume Apocal wrote: This is more generalized, but Crystals should affect capitals shield boosters if slaves affect capital buffer. They already do. One thing i was thinking of though is creating a new implant set just for shield amount. If that was available, it would go great with the Hel Yes please. I too would like to see more ridiculous passive tanks everywhere. I am not meaning on the Capital Level by the way.
Epiphaniess Verboten Technologies 198	Posted - 2011.10.13 23:29:00 - [79] - Quote Rael Nazari wrote: Headerman wrote: Mfume Apocal wrote: This is more generalized, but Crystals should affect capitals shield boosters if slaves affect capital buffer. They already do. One thing i was thinking of though is creating a new implant set just for shield amount. If that was available, it would go great with the Hel Yes please. I too would like to see more ridiculous passive tanks everywhere. I am not meaning on the Capital Level by the way. Imagine drake fleets with those... Actually never mind most of the ships I fly are shield tanked anyways. Please give me, I would love a set of implants as awesome Slaves that increase shield amount. Could change the Halo set from reduced signature to increased shield amount. To help balance out the passive shield regen boost you would get could give them a shield regen penalty.
Ragel Tropxe Mindstar Technology Executive Outcomes 2	Posted - 2011.10.14 07:00:00 - [80] - Quote amongst the many issues which are being discussed here, I think the critical problem with Minmatar capitals is a design focus which started off muddled and then has been iterated on in a haphazard way. We all know the other three races are about - their ships follow a consistent design philosophy....Minmatar have: Carrier - originally could be either shield or armour tanked - had a mid moved to a low so its now a mediocre armour tanker Dread - can be either shield or armour tanked (although I think it tends more to a shield fit) Mothership - shield tanker No other race has this quixotic mix. some may say flexibility is an advantage, and this may be so for smaller ships, but capitals need to have focus to be effective. Personally I would advocate that Nidhoggur follows the tier 3 battleship , like Amarr and Caldari already do. This would mean it becomes a shield tanker with the carrier having a bonus to active rep amount. this would also balance carriers with 2 being armour and 2 being shield IMO the Nag is pretty ok as it is following the last balance pass 2? years ago, 3 guns would be better but I recall this was said to be impossible because of the artwork assets The Hel needs focus on shields (ie increase shields at the expense of armour) change mid/low slot config to allow a better tank. I would then add a bonus to fighter / FB tracking or similar. This would mean we have 2 brick fit motherships and 2 "offensive" motherships. Whilst we're at it Id reverse the decision made to make the fleet issue Tempest an armour tanker - another classic outcome from the lack of design focus.
CynoNet Two GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 54	Posted - 2011.10.14 10:16:00 - [81] - Quote Oh Christ. This thread got to 4 pages of OMG NURF SLAVE SETS retardation before I found it. Let's see what we can fix. Here's a revelation - the problem with armour/shield supercap balance has absolutely nothing to do with Slaves. At all. Many of you are just leaping on them as a scapegoat, as the underlying cause of the imbalance is actually several interconnected problems. Let's demonstrate... who has EFT? Fit up standard Fleet Erebus (4 X-types, 2 A-type EANMs, magstab and slaves) with its own bonus. You should come out with a number around 50m EHP Now fit up a typical Ragnarok (DC, 3x PDS, Pith X-types and 2 invulns). Give it a Levi fleet bonus and swap out the regular CN invulns for Vepas ones. Yup, Vepas. You should be seeing around 55m EHP (42m without the Levi). Now let's do a similar thing for the Nyx and Hel. A Nyx with 7-slot tank, Slaves and Erebus bonus should be in the region of 45m EHP. Now let's take a Hel with 6-slot tank+DC/PDS, Levi bonus and pimp it up to Vepas invulns... ~39m EHP. Why did I use Vepas Invulns? If you look carefully, any self-respecting armour supercap will be fitting A-Type EANMs, which are a meta-13 deadspace mod and on equal stats to Ahremen EANM's. By swapping to Vepas rather than the typical CN faction invuln, it put the shield tankers on the same meta level and made them comparable. So what are the problems? 1. No meta-13 invulns. Armour tankers have the luxury of a ton of deadspace EANMs available at prices affordable relative to their ship. We need A-Type Invulns seeded so that shield tankers are not paying out the nose to compete on the same level. 2. Shield gang bonus is not applied instantly. This is a no-brainer - for anyone to benefit from the Leviathan properly then shield bonus HP need to kick in immediately just like armour bonuses do. 3. The Hel is a little short on raw HP. Most shield tanking ships have less base HP than their armour counterparts, which is often compensated by the having use of active omni-tanking Invulns to give them better overall resists. For the Wyvern this isn't much of an issue, as it get's an inbuilt resistance bonus too. However the Hel suffers from a combination of low raw HP, fewer midslots and no innate resistance bonus. Solution? Give it +5% shield HP per level and it now has a bonus suitable for its race and role.
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 200	Posted - 2011.10.14 10:26:00 - [82] - Quote ^^^ Came to the same conclusion about increasing the shield amount, that is a good bonus. I think the only down side is that it's not an offensive bonus to go hand in hand with the Nyx's offensive bonus, and the opposite of the Aeons defensive bonus. But, it's sure better than the RR bonus [img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img]
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.14 10:41:00 - [83] - Quote And then compare cookie cutter aeon and wyvern. Aeon using 8 slots for tank - 35m ehp. Wyvern using 10 slots for tank - 37m ehp WITH VEPAS INVULS Now plug in hg slaves and aeon suddenly has 51m ehp. Apply titan bonuses and difference is 20m ehp /even if levi bonus actually increased your current shields/. No, slaves are definitely not a problem.
Cruthensis Xeno Tech Corp Flatline. 0	Posted - 2011.10.14 10:53:00 - [84] - Quote I like the idea that Min capitals should fit in wiht the Minmatar ethos of fast, agile combat. To that end, the carriers could have a bonus to support that play style, rather than to directly play that style (as if a carrier's would ever orbit in falloff ). A decent bonus to remote repair range might do that, allowing the support fleet to leverage their advantage of speed and range dictation over a large grid area, without getting out of rep range. I'd see that being primarily useful for small - medium sized gangs I suppose. It could also play well with paired blobs of sniping alpha Dreads and BS.
CynoNet Two GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 54	Posted - 2011.10.14 11:02:00 - [85] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: And then compare cookie cutter aeon and wyvern. Aeon using 8 slots for tank - 35m ehp. Wyvern using 10 slots for tank - 37m ehp WITH VEPAS INVULS Now plug in hg slaves and aeon suddenly has 51m ehp. Apply titan bonuses and difference is 20m ehp /even if levi bonus actually increased your current shields/. No, slaves are definitely not a problem. At no point did I say that the Aeon's base hitpoints were balanced. That isn't the subject of this thread. The fact that it has the highest base armour value AND a resistance bonus should be addressed as part of its own balancing. It's worth pointing out that I'm not in favour of a 20% across the board HP reduction for supercaps, but rather differing reductions based on things like this. For example, the Aeon should be dropped by 20%, while the Hel should not be touched at all. And I say that as an Aeon pilot already.
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.14 11:28:00 - [86] - Quote Nyx with slaves - using 7 slots for tank - 33,5m ehp. Hel using 10 slots for tank - 26m ehp WITH VEPAS INVULS. Nyx without slaves - 22m ehp. Hel with cn invuls - 21,5m ehp. So even if high meta deadspace invul was in game and cost the same amount of isk as a-type eanm, even then the bonus of hg slaves /that are 2bil/ is much much bigger. No, ehp of supercaps isnt 100% balanced, but slave implants mean even bigger imbalance, that should be fixed.
CynoNet Two GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 54	Posted - 2011.10.14 12:58:00 - [87] - Quote Lugalzagezi666 wrote: Nyx with slaves - using 7 slots for tank - 33,5m ehp. Hel using 10 slots for tank - 26m ehp WITH VEPAS INVULS. Nyx without slaves - 22m ehp. Hel with cn invuls - 21,5m ehp. So even if high meta deadspace invul was in game and cost the same amount of isk as a-type eanm, even then the bonus of hg slaves /that are 2bil/ is much much bigger. No, ehp of supercaps isnt 100% balanced, but slave implants mean even bigger imbalance, that should be fixed. You seem to be having trouble comprehending more than one line of my post at a time. I'm going to refrain from pointing out your logical errors and ending my sentences IN RAGE CAPS, and instead post ~pretty pictures~. Through the magic of a hex editor I have buffed the Hel (alas only in my own copy of EFT) to show what would happen if my proposed changes went in and the world was a happier, shiner place. They say a picture paints a thousand words. What if it's a picture* of several pictures with more words inside them?!?!?. I hope you can keep up! *apparently BBcode no longer works so: http://i.imgur.com/p0vNs.jpg
Lugalzagezi666 16	Posted - 2011.10.14 13:17:00 - [88] - Quote You somehow doesnt seem to understand, that its exactly hg slave implants that are generating the ehp inbalance issue in sc class. So instead of making slaves to not affect capital hulls, you think its better to create some new magical deadspace invul and add shield bonus to 1 ship to fix that imbalance generated by slave implants. Only that slaves provide significant benefit to all other armor tanking supercapitals, so you will have to balance ehp of all other scs too. And all you will get is, that slaved armor scs will still have more ehp than shield scs when using same amout of slots for tank.
Aamrr HnL Enterprise 79	Posted - 2011.10.15 01:41:00 - [89] - Quote And....that little EFT screenshot really says all there is to say. +1.
Justin Cody T.A.L.O.N. Company B4D W01F 5	Posted - 2011.10.15 07:30:00 - [90] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Tanya Powers wrote: CCP already stated that passive shield regen is way overpowered has it is. This statement confuses me. Barring a few ratting drakes out in the belts of nullsec, I can't remember the last time I saw passive tanks being used in any significant capacity. Buffer is indisputably popular, but that's certainly not an issue relevant to regen. Battlecruiser level aside, there really aren't many ships out there that I would say should be passively-regen tanked. More often than not, you can get superior damage projection with using an active or buffer configuration with similar survivability. Does anyone else feel this way, or am i mistaken? You are 100% correct. Passive regeneration of shield HP is not over powered. Not at all. The fact that minmatar shield tank (sub cap) far better than caldari is a shame. I would like to see passive tanking expanded upon for caldari as a strategy that is meant to happen rather than being incidental. They are supposed to have the most advanced shields in EVE. Buffer tank isn't regen which confuses some people. Regen is affected primarily by your shield recharge time and then by resistances. which multiply the effect. I can make a phoenix with a nasty buffer tank, and it does regen pretty well...but it isn't spectacular or even close to the active tank it can have. There should be more passive tanked caldari ships. That is the end of it.

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