This is more generalized, but Crystals should affect capitals shield boosters if slaves affect capital buffer.

They already do. One thing i was thinking of though is creating a new implant set just for shield amount. If that was available, it would go great with the Hel

maybe instead of new implants just cut off the slaves from affecting caps and super caps - it will go great with the new "more vulnerable(and in touch with their feelings) caps

Make Caldari capitals useful instead of boosting Minmatar.

The correct solution to game balance or design problems is very rarely "remove content," especially in a game already so starved for content as EVE Online.

I'd like to see Minmatar capitals doing something new and unique. I don't like seeing more of the same with different hulls.

For the Naglfar: adding a 3d turret hardpoint (and removing the launcher slots obviously).
- It would bring the Nag more in line with the post-patch Moros, although the Moros will still out-dps all the other dreads.
- It would remove the need to train up for a subpar weapon system on a hull that doesn't give it any bonusses anyway.
- It would require a new shipmodel (but that could be in the pipeline already right?!)
- Turrets are cooler then missiles.

[quote=Lyris Nairn]Figure out how much damage it can put out during a single siege cycle, and work out the other 3 weapon systems to that number.

Make Slaves have no effect on capitals, rebalance EHP if necessary.

This.
Removing Slave set bonuses from capitals is long overdue, especially with how much they contribute to the shield/armour gap./quote]

[quote=Aamrr]On the subject of slave implants, please do consider whether you want to remove their benefit on all capital ships, or just supercapitals. A slave set currently retails for over twice the cost of a carrier before insurance. There's nothing particularly absurd about tripling your ship cost to get another 50% hp. On a ship with a 20 billion isk hull, on the other hand...

Fix shield capitals' shield gang bonus recharge issue.
Make Slaves have no effect on capitals, rebalance EHP if necessary.
Reduce Archon PG and increase Chimera and Nidhoggur CPU, so they have similar ease of fitting RR.
Move two lowslots on Nidhoggur to medslots so the Chimera isn't the only shield carrier.

Leave the Naglfar with the split weapon system so the Phoenix isn't the only missile-using dreadnought (which would make it (even more) unwanted and effectively useless), but ensure that the Naglfar has a significant DPS advantage over even the Moros in compensation.

Do something, anything, to better balance the Hel with the Nyx.

They already do.

When did that happen? Opening up EVE right now, I get "Note: Does not affect capital class modules." in the description.

However, is it necessary to alter slaves as they relate to supercaps now? The 15 minute logoff will be gone. The slaved super/titan will no longer be hoping to hp=survive a logoff.

For those that suggested it, introducing a new shield slave equivalent presents a whole new set of balancing problems. What would the regen effect of a shield slave equivalent be? Might that not be op itself? It would certainly leapfrog Caldari shield buffers past Amarr armor buffers. These implants would affect all ships as well. It would upset the delicate if imperfect balance between shield and armor tanking that exists in the game for all ship classes.

I'm not conviced with the whole shield rr cpu cost being harsher than armor rr. I am not an eft ***** so I won't throw numbers around. I'll just say anecdotally that my shield ships have rarely had cpu problems compared to the pg problems my armor ships regularly run into. Again, is it necessary to mess with this? What would the consequences be for all ship classes? Are the folks who complain about cpu costs experienced with pg costs on armor ships?

I agree with a rearrangement of the minmatar caps. I've always wondered why they aren't to Caldari caps analogous to the Amarr and Gallente slot distribution. There should be more focus on shield tank. The Nid has a same mid layout as the Thanny (6 low and 5 mid). That should probably be 5 low and 6 mid. Especially since the Hel is a shield tanker.

As to changing Nid and Hel bonuses, I like that my Nid can rep better. I never saw carriers as a combat focused ship anyway. I do not perceive the changes as making them such either. They serve more a logistical role imo. The Hel on the other hand is the odd duck for a ship class that is meant to be used in a combat role. Something definitiely needs to be changed with its bonus.

A capital module, that fits in a low slot and requires capital amounts of PG, that increases the shields by 8-10%? Would be a lot easier to implement than a new implant set

The Naglfar will never get a third turret. For that would require the art team to redo the Naglfar's model to add another turret placing. Which is a lot of work apparently since it takes CCP's art team about a year from concept to end product to get one done.

During the projectile buff, there was also some changes done to the Naglfar, and one of the things that was asked for was. To remove the missiles part of Neglfar's weapons load out and add a third turret like all the other dreads. And that was a big "NO" from CCP because of all the work that would be need to make a new model.

So you are certainly not going to get a third turret. Which is fine by me who wants to be like all the other dreads anyways. A DPS or Alpha buff to compensate for having to train two capital weapon systems to fly the thing properly is probably what is really in order. So it will be paper thin at least you you be carrying a big stick and hitting things hard.

Naglfar should be on top of the Damage charts with a lead that makes the other dreads jealous.

Of course for having all that destructive power, Naglfar's will be the first to die in every large fleet fight.

Or...we could just remove slave sets from the equation, and shield capitals could have the choice between getting more EHP (power diags) or having reasonable cap recharge (power relays).

Who says you have to refund them? If a pilot is sitting in a supercapital at the time of the patch, just pull the slaves out of his head and stick them in the cargo bay.

They paid for slave implants, they still have slave implants. Now they just have to find something else useful to use them on -- and if that's selling them on the market, so be it. God knows they've gotten enough use out of them already to justify a loss on the resale.

The correct solution to game balance or design problems is very rarely "remove content," especially in a game already so starved for content as EVE Online.

It is not removing content, it is modifying it. His idea would be more fitting than beefing up the smaller shield tanked ships.

Quoted for truth. The sad irony about slave implants is that their current implementation gives choice to no-one. They're either a necessity or too expensive to be cost-effective.

Using slaves on supercapitals was never a choice. The cost-benefit ratio meant that every armor tanked supercapital used them the same way they use (and abuse) T2 rigs -- their rarity dictated a price bracket appropriate for well-pimped battleships and normal capitals, but was a drop in the bucket on a supercapital purchase. Meanwhile, this demand on the market pushed prices beyond the level that any normal capital or subcapital could use them.

Perhaps once this artificial market demand is removed, slave implants will start being cost-effective options for things like Bhaalgorns and Vindicators. But until that happens, you can't argue that slave implants are giving ANYONE choices in the matter. They're too effective on supercapitals not to use them, and too costly on anything else to use them.

Perhaps once this artificial market demand is removed, slave implants will start being cost-effective options for things like Bhaalgorns and Vindicators. But until that happens, you can't argue that slave implants are giving ANYONE choices in the matter. They're too effective on supercapitals not to use them, and too costly on anything else to use them.

^^^ What about the shield equivelent of the armor module that increases base armour amount by 8%?

A capital module, that fits in a low slot and requires capital amounts of PG, that increases the shields by 8-10%? Would be a lot easier to implement than a new implant set

CCP already stated that passive shield regen is way overpowered has it is.

This statement confuses me. Barring a few ratting drakes out in the belts of nullsec, I can't remember the last time I saw passive tanks being used in any significant capacity. Buffer is indisputably popular, but that's certainly not an issue relevant to regen.

Battlecruiser level aside, there really aren't many ships out there that I would say should be passively-regen tanked. More often than not, you can get superior damage projection with using an active or buffer configuration with similar survivability.

Does anyone else feel this way, or am i mistaken?

Personally, I feel that adding SPR's to a ship should gimp shield amount, in exchange for shield recharge. This would leave passive tanking more balanced.

Just to compare, active tanking bc - myrmidon - can tank 650+ dps has long has he has cap charges, after this he will miserably die in a fireball because no cap is no tank

The abuse, with the Onyx, comes from the fact that if you brick tank them, you'll get 120-130k EHP (before any implants) and a ~750 recharge rate. 130kEHP isn't a terrible deal, but a recharge rate that puts it's "tank" over that of an active-tanking BC AS WELL AS having roughly equal EHP can be a game changer in small gang warfare. It's one of the reasons why it sees so much use. If you throw in implants to add to the shield amount, you also increase it's "tank." If you have it's shields anywhere near peak recharge, and your damage output gets cut off (ECM, or whatever) then it will magically 'spawn' 15,000 more EHP.

I've seen a fair few SPR Onyx's fielded around. The lower EHP may make them seem tardy in nullsec vs alpha fleets, but they're very common in WH space where gangs are smaller. Remember you can jump when agressed in WHs, so jumping out, holding cloak, then jumping back in has just given you a metric fuckton of EHP back.

[quote=Khanh'rhh]EDIT: just so we're keeping the argument in context, he's saying it's "abuse" that a shipclass with a bonus and slot layout favorable to passive shield tanking has an awesome passive shield tank. And because of this, it's totally reasonable and balanced that armor supercaps get a massive EHP boost over shield ones.

Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals.

Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok?

Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.

Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.

I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS.

I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.

And any carrier spider tanking or not cant stand up to X+10 nyxs

Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals.

Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok?

I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS.

I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.

Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.

E: for niddy just increse it from 5 to 7,5% or keep it at 5% and make it affect local reps too. Yes, it will suck for uberblobs and so, but it will become great triage carrier for smaller fights. Or maybe bonus that would make reps more efficient in terms of cap /both local and remote/.

But its only point of view of low sec guy, so probably others will have better ideas.

That's why I'm getting them. And I just live in a wormhole. It's even more important in null where sov structures come into play.

Has anyone else had a good close look at ammo for the x-large guns for the Nag?
- short range ammo has an optimal of about 19km, medium about 31km.

Is there any room to add more optimal or more damage? I have heard that a Phoenix usually gets top damage dealer on POS shoots?

They already do. One thing i was thinking of though is creating a new implant set just for shield amount. If that was available, it would go great with the Hel

Yes please. I too would like to see more ridiculous passive tanks everywhere. I am not meaning on the Capital Level by the way.

And then compare cookie cutter aeon and wyvern.

Aeon using 8 slots for tank - 35m ehp.
Wyvern using 10 slots for tank - 37m ehp WITH VEPAS INVULS

Now plug in hg slaves and aeon suddenly has 51m ehp. Apply titan bonuses and difference is 20m ehp /even if levi bonus actually increased your current shields/.

No, slaves are definitely not a problem.

Nyx with slaves - using 7 slots for tank - 33,5m ehp.
Hel using 10 slots for tank - 26m ehp WITH VEPAS INVULS.

Nyx without slaves - 22m ehp.
Hel with cn invuls - 21,5m ehp.

So even if high meta deadspace invul was in game and cost the same amount of isk as a-type eanm, even then the bonus of hg slaves /that are 2bil/ is much much bigger.

No, ehp of supercaps isnt 100% balanced, but slave implants mean even bigger imbalance, that should be fixed.

This statement confuses me. Barring a few ratting drakes out in the belts of nullsec, I can't remember the last time I saw passive tanks being used in any significant capacity. Buffer is indisputably popular, but that's certainly not an issue relevant to regen.

Battlecruiser level aside, there really aren't many ships out there that I would say should be passively-regen tanked. More often than not, you can get superior damage projection with using an active or buffer configuration with similar survivability.

Does anyone else feel this way, or am i mistaken?

[list]

Slave implants. Really, does it need to be said? The best option is probably to make them not work on supercapital ships. Pilots with the ability to fly supercapitals should probably have the implants removed and placed in their cargohold or hangar, as appropriate.

Nag and Rag: Increase the base damage multiplyer of x-large projectiles to reinforce Minmatars better weapons

when they last looked at the Nag the view was giving it three turrets wasnt possible due to artwork restrictions

It would not take much to fix that. Besides they are planing to add Launcher hard points and redesigning all of the ships anyway, just throw it on the pile.

Nag will have 2 guns and 3 launchers firing.

Yeeesss

Don't remove the Implants though, just make Supers not effected by them entirely.

That would make it worth the time. Are we adding another slot for the siege mod or is that extra launcher just a Citadel sized tease.

I'd like to see Minmatar capitals doing something new and unique. I don't like seeing more of the same with different hulls.

nanocapitals.

Slaves implants do make Armor tanking in the Cap level more desirable. But the solution is not to remove them or even to make them not work with Capital ships. Making them not work with Capital ships sounds like a much more complicated solution, than is necessary.

The solution that makes more since would to add a new set of implants, or revamp an existing set like the Halo set from reduced signature to increased shield amount and help balance out some of the extra passive shield regen boost you would get could give them a shield regen penalty. Though I am not sure the extra shield regen would be all that OP, that would have to be some number that would need looking into.

I do wonder about slaves, since they give a bonus to armour amount, and there is a rig to cut down on the armour RR activation time

maybe instead of new implants just cut off the slaves from affecting caps and super caps - it will go great with the new "more vulnerable(and in touch with their feelings) caps

I recently bought a Nid, but I've never flown it in combat. I'm not familiar with the more particular issues some of you bring up. However, I found myself wondering if there were changes that could be made that weren't strictly focused on shields or weapons.

I always thought of the Minmatar capitals in relation to the Thukker nomads wandering about and never docking. Is there any value to buffing things like its cargohold/ship fit bay/corp bay/fuel bay? I liked one of the posters ideas to make it take less cap to jump. Perhaps also a faster cap regen time? A little extra jump distance? More agility or speed to fit the typical Minnie bonuses?

Id also like to add that if you make any changes to the general tanking type of any of the ships, please make arrangements for mods to be swapped =)

In previous "balance" passes I've swapped my Shield tanked Nidhoggur to an armour tanked one, and my armour tanked Naglfar to a shield tanked one.

How about cutting us some slack on this one guys?

I'm a bit wary of getting rid of the missiles on the Naglfar. It restricts missiles to the Phoenix, making it even less attractive. It's a case of helping one ship to the unintentional, and unneeded, detriment of another.

On the subject of meta-13 invulns, it is worth pointing out that a faction invuln gives a 37.5% resistance bonus. Even with all-5 compensation skills, you only get 35.4% from an a-type EANM. I know that one is active and one is passive, but...on a capital, the capacitor draw from a hardener isn't exactly the dominant factor in your capacitor consumption. The only real factor here is whether you can turn it off with energy neutralizers.

Just food for thought.

Sure it does. Which is why I mentioned it. But it doesn't change the fact that invulns are inherently more potent than EANMs.

Sure it does. Which is why I mentioned it. But it doesn't change the fact that invulns are inherently more potent than EANMs.

Note that my post specifically doesn't say this. Keeping 2 launcher hardpoints on the Naglfar is fine and hurts nothing. If people want to fit a capital Typhoon-style, and have the skills for it, then let them.

But you shouldn't be forced to train both to fly such a key ship in the Minmatar line; it is a severe penalty to any pilot who trains Minmatar Battleship V which has no justification outside of lore (and the new art that would be required for a 3rd turret on the Naglfar.)

Leave the Naglfar with the split weapon system so the Phoenix isn't the only missile-using dreadnought (which would make it (even more) unwanted and effectively useless), but ensure that the Naglfar has a significant DPS advantage over even the Moros in compensation.

A very good post.

I think i will be trainign for a Moros now, superior damage at all ranges, and a cap usage issue that can be worked around.

The idea of the slave set giving equal bonuses to shield, armour and hull is interesting... have the same increase in amount but for all 3 levels.

A possible alternative to that would be, if CCP thinks that is OP, 3 separate Slave omega implants, one for shield, armour and hull in turn. let the 5 normal implants give bonuses to shield, armour and hull, but let the one specific omega give it's boost to only the shields, armour or hull

Naglfar:

Minus 2 launchers

Minus 2 highslots

+ Role Bonus: % capital projectile damage increase

SUP I FIXED THE NAG (and we don't have to wait 3 years for the art department to make a new ship model)



Also. I'm about to jump into a carrier. I have all my support skills ready (jdc5, fighters4, rep/rr, etc) and minmatar bs lvl5.
Nidhoggur is SO BAD that I am going to spend an extra 30 days to train amarr bs 5 for archon.
Please tell me nid is getting some love.

Remove launchers and give it a web and tp bonus.

The dreads were arguably the most balanced of all the capitals. The Nag just needs a little more armor or shields (and pick one! - but that is constant with all the Mini capts).

As for the proposed slave buff - sorry - I do think its a little imba. . .especially for shield capitals.

Now for a very Minmatar-specific problem:

1. Make the Hel the only supercarrier capable of fitting a triage module. (This would probably require a boost to its cap regen stats.) This would make the Hel the only supercarrier able to change roles from DPS machine to essentially an impervious spacepriest.

Give the nidhoggur

8% bonus to armor and shield transfer ammount per carrier level instead of the 5%.

Give it an agility bonus as well.




Increase the repping transfer ammount to make it more of a viable use for triage operations. It may not be as robust as the Archon, but it will put some reps in before the duct tape melts.

Give it an agility bonus to allow it to be more versatile as a combat support carrier that is able to align with a fleet that may be moving around in system. May give way for more tactical uses of carriers.

Any feedback on what CCP plan to do with Minmatar and Caldari capitals ? aka shield capitals

Fixed that for you

For the Hel and the Nid
Remove the Repair bonus, add 5% drone damage
Buff the shield EHP by atleast 15%

Nid only remove 1 low slot add 1 mid slot

Nagl
Change the bonus to 6,5% damage and rof per level

Ragnarok
Increase tracking by 500% and Lower rate of fire by 500% so it atleast has a use in instapopping drakes :)
Since fixing the rag would require a complete overhaul of the ship.

If you're looking for a flavorful alternative to the RR-bonus, look at Jump Drive Operation. The Minmatar are known for having light, nimble, and mobile ships. Translating this to a capital ship means a more efficient warp drive. Making it the only carrier to enter the field with more than 1/3 capacitor would be interesting and flavorful.

maybe instead of new implants just cut off the slaves from affecting caps and super caps - it will go great with the new "more vulnerable(and in touch with their feelings) caps

I'd like to see Minmatar capitals doing something new and unique. I don't like seeing more of the same with different hulls.

Seconding this. In addition to this, remove the effect of all pirate implants from all capitals. It would instantly balance the monolithic differences, give the Nyx and the Hel almost exactly the same EHP overall, not to mention it would knock the Aeon down to a more reasonable EHP. That'd be a further step to rebalancing capitals and supercapitals, and for the record, Crystals used to be a shield amount bonus implant just like slaves, they were changed for whatever reason though. Don't know that, don't care.