Use more than one set. I keep a training clone with +5s in hisec, and run +3s in another clone when I want to keep my training queue happy while fooling around in lowsec. +3s are super cheap comparatively. If you're training long skills, or several related skills, you can simply use just two or three +3 implants in that clone, instead of a full set, to go even cheaper.

Also, if you don't have one, make an overview tab designed just to get your pod out. List celestials, stations, COs/POCOs for quick warp selection as you head into low structure. Won't save you all the time, but it helps.

All excellent suggestions. I just wish the clone jump delay was more like 4 hours instead of 24.

All excellent suggestions. I just wish the clone jump delay was more like 4 hours instead of 24.

+5s for training clones, +2 betas for combat clones. Well thought out remaps are your best friend too.

No to decreasing clone jump time.

Wow damn 24h jump clone. It's not even about time i don't want jump clones at all. Remove them along with attribute implants.

I once propsed idea to remove attribute implants completly. That would make hundreds of people just start to pvp or pve in low/null whenever they want. They would be ok with possibility of losing the ship , paying for clone etc. But they are not ok with losing training time. I can understand this.

Keep only implants like Slaves, Crystals etc ... You want to buff yourself in pvp , pve with implants ? Still possible. But placing mandatory(let's be honest) implants in your head is kinda worst thing that happend to pvp. People are ok with losing clone, pvp frigate along with fit worth maybe 10kk but are quiet not ok with losing 500kk in implants along with pitiful 10kk frigate.

Noone can put reasonable argument behind damn attribute implants. Just rise all attributes for all toons across the board +5. Gj now why train cybernetics ? Plenty of reasons : slaves, crystals , snakes , genoltuion, skill hardwire.

Give this game best change ever - remove attributes implant. You do this and i will pvp EVERY SINGLE DAY. I will provide you many KM's every single day. But cba to lose training time becuase i have to sit in damn jump clone. Wow damn 24h jump clone. It's not even about time i don't want jump clones at all. Remove them along with attribute implants.

Whoever thinks it's bad idea must really be out of this world. You don't want those carebears jump into low sec in GREAT NUMBERS ? Because now all they risk is thier ship and clone ? You don't want number of pvping people doubled,tripled or even more ? Really you don't want ? If not keep those implants and keep those people in high sec because of that. I would do pve content in low sec and pvp all the time if you would remove those bloody implants. Now i do travel to low sec but not very often and try not to pvp - usually on pve bussiness - mostly short ones.

I have had this thought myself specifically after they removed learning skills. I think remaps are the only thing you should have to worry about. Because, yeah, implants are mandatory for skilling up and people would PvP more if the death penalty was reduced (or at least controllable). Because skill implants are mandatory the death penalty will always be too high.

I fail to understand why attribute implants are mandatory. There's plenty of us that don't use them at all, for long periods of time. With a proper remap, the skills still get trained, albeit a bit slower.

It's nothing for me to lose enough ships to cover two sets of +3 implants in a busy weekend of learning to be bad at PvP. Or even a set of +3 or +2 implants, themselves. Thankfully, the LP store always has more.

Everyone knows this , standard +5 and +2 . But this is useless garbage just completly not necessary read my previous post. Why keep broken system when you can bring better more efficient and more pvp friendly. Yes BIG WORD INC : PVP FRIENDLY.
Btw not only no to decreasing clone jump time but remove jump clones at all T_T.

I fail to understand why attribute implants are mandatory. There's plenty of us that don't use them at all, for long periods of time. With a proper remap, the skills still get trained, albeit a bit slower.

It's nothing for me to lose enough ships to cover two sets of +3 implants in a busy weekend of learning to be bad at PvP. Or even a set of +3 or +2 implants, themselves. Thankfully, the LP store always has more.

Implants are a big isk sink, in a game that needs more not less isk sinks. And while nice, there are absolutely no requirements to use implants at all.

And seriously, unless you are fighting in 0.0 all the time how often do you actually lose your pod?

Same way as learnings were mandatory. You could train your skills without them, albeit a bit slower.

I'm wholeheartly concur with an idea of removing delay for clone on same station you're currently in.

It's rather hard to lose a pod in low sec or high, if you know what you're doing. Sure there is always a chance, but I would suggest practising getting out with corp mates first.

Get yourself into a cheap clone and ship, then practise warping your pod out before he locks it. It's also good to try this in high player systems, where lag can play a part.

@ 50M a pop for a set of +3s (presuming that's the only implants you have) that's still not nothing for a good many pilots. I think people forget how much distance there is between new pilots and the veterans. It's easy to blow 50M at a time when you've got 10B in the bank or are worth 50B in assets. It's quite another when you're sitting on 500M and are only making 5M a day.

You don't start playing with drakes in the first week. You don't run level IVs in 20 minutes when you're still until 5M SP. You don't run a vast trade network when you don't have the skills to do so. Please understand the plight of the young.

Your point being? There is nothing anywhere that says attribute implants are mandatory. I didn't use any for quite awhile when I started EVE. Each person can CHOOSE, based on their EVE income whether they are worth the investment.

Along that logic, maybe we should remove faction ammo as well. That stuff gets expensive fast. Therefore the rich vets have an obvious advantage as they can afford it more than the new pilots.

So telling me that implants aren't mandatory is basically saying everyone should have to wait X more days before they can do the thing they actually wanted to do.

Why i cannot pvp and at same time learn as anyone else ? Why you just don't let me do this ? After losing ship i would bring more and have fun. But just fact alone that either i risk hundreds of milions of isk in my head or sitting in jump clone with plugged garbage implants makes me sick of pvp.

@ 50M a pop for a set of +3s (presuming that's the only implants you have) that's still not nothing for a good many pilots. I think people forget how much distance there is between new pilots and the veterans. It's easy to blow 50M at a time when you've got 10B in the bank or are worth 50B in assets. It's quite another when you're sitting on 500M and are only making 5M a day.

You don't start playing with drakes in the first week. You don't run level IVs in 20 minutes when you're still until 5M SP. You don't run a vast trade network when you don't have the skills to do so. Please understand the plight of the young.

So telling me that implants aren't mandatory is basically saying everyone should have to wait X more days before they can do the thing they actually wanted to do.

one very angry post...

blablabla, blablab bla , (even more blablablba)

All this system does at this very moment is supporting old players. If you got dunno 3 years old or more character - then you got mostly all mandatory skills and just getting more that can help but are not MUST. So he can sit in +1 +2 or even without implants - just becuase he already got all he needs to be dangerous in pvp , efficient in pve. He still trains - slow , but he couldn't care less he is versatile and powerful already.

On the other hand young characters desperately try to train skills that are just must : Electronics, Enginering etc. And every single attribute point counts

With all those XY milion characters around.

no idea who its directed at, but why does saying u dnt have to use expensive implants make u for or against implants?
personally i was just stating to the OP that the problem they face is self imposed. if u want to PvP u dnt have to have expensive implants. ur hardly any better off with expensive implants than u are cheap implants.

i'm neither for or against attribute or skill implants. if they were removed i wouldnt consider myself worse off, just not as well off and everyone else around me would be equally affected. but it must be understood, the advantage they give is a small one, especially when compared against their costs.

@ Derath Ellecon ... you did not read my posts. Obviously. Obviously not where i said remove implants and improve attributes +5 across the board.

So how now what i say contradicts anything ? Hah got ya.

How about that ? You just wasted so much time to write this all ? I mean i respect you tried. I do.

Wasted not because you cannot convice me , but you never read previous posts in first time and then you make assumptions. So no what i propose surely would not hurt anyone - not old players not new. Sorry man you failed.

"
So to recap, by your own argument, removing attribute implants actually hurts newer players more than older ones. So how does removing them benefit?

"
quoted before you edit.

i can name several reasons training implants benefit the game, if that's what you want, but it appears not to be; it appears that you just want a bunch of people patting you on the back and telling you youre a "good girl" for coming up with such a brilliant idea . . .

when you quit whining and start making coherent, non rage, non whine posts perhaps we can discuss why training implants should or should not stay

Why are having +5's in so important to you? I frequently PvP in HG sets, where I'm not only running the risk of losing significantly more than set of +5's, but have only +3 to various ability scores.

SP is a means to an end, not an end unto itself - if your goal is to PvP, and PvP requires you to run with lower implants so you can afford it (only nullsec, tbh), than don't use implants. If accumulating the most SP is your goal, then you've already decided to make PvP a second priority, and there's no reason the game should cater to your particular preference.

Don't try to claim that you need to be training so you can PvP - many people get by fine with minimal skillpoints. You pick what you want to do in this game, then do what you need to do to achieve that goal - that's why it is a sandbox. If you want to PvP, then do it. If you want to accumulate SP, than you've already set your priorities so that PvP isn't your main goal.

Eventually I'll get around to Cybernetics V, and I'll get myself a full set of +5s. I'll make a "speed-learning clone" that I can clonejump into during periods when I don't plan to be playing the game for a few days. I'll train everything a tiny bit faster (tiny bits do add up, you know) and it will be nice.

However.. as soon as I log into EVE to actually do something, back to the normal clone I go. Lowsec? I run +4s normally, so using significantly cheaper +3s in lowsec isn't that big a downgrade to me. Nullsec runs to Outer Ring and back for hilariously expensive BPOs? 24h of +0 skill training is worth it.

24h of lower attributes while you do something else isn't all that bad.


I may feel that once every 24h is a bit long for clone jumps and that the IP skill could be used more effectively as a cooldown reducer, but if you're going to change the topic to simply doing away with attribute implants, then this has to be said too.

You have no idea what the ramifications of your suggestion would truly be and if you think you do, you're beyond arrogant.

[offtopic]There are times when its impossible to warp out because of lag spike during session change (1s) after your ship is destroyed. That 1s is enough to lock on you and point/kill. Adding 3sec pod cloak after ship loss would solve that problem. Explanation for that is rather simple: "EM waves and debris after ship explosion make it harder for sensors to locate POD".[/offtopic]

Sorry but no. I've been in so many lag fights it'll be hard to number. When I've wanted my pod out, I got it out. This is why I suggest practise and done sometimes in high pilot system. There are tricks, you just need to know them.

I also think your idea is OP.

Lag fight != session change lag spike for single player when everyone else dont lag.

How is it OP? By cloak i meant similar to after-gate-jump cloaking. So when you start to move - it fades. Also 3s isnt much.

You don't realize it. (no **** not first time ) But you just supported my idea. Idea to support PvP you seem to hate. For all players new and old. I prefer +5 idea because it's good for new players. But for sake of all is sacred removing without adding attributes is fine too. If there is nothing in my head valuable that provides me skill point gain then i can and i will pvp like many whenever i want without any uncessary penalty other than losing ship/skill hardwiring and clone. But if there is something or there can be something that can give me advantage i will keep it. Keep it and as long as it its 10x or more worth than my ship for pvp ...

Sorry man still too complicated for you ?

if it means that much to u, then they are doing their intended job. if that keeps u out of PvP then that is a self imposed restriction. its not the fault of the implants. As for getting rid of implants and giving everyone +5 attributes encouraging more PvP, u may be right, but so would having every ship u lose replaced for free. with free, un losable ships a lot more ppl would PvP.

what makes eve PvP so exciting is the sense of loss, and the loss of ur expensive implants is part of that.

The 24H timer is clearly designed to prevent something

Now I mentioned at the beginning of this that I wanted people to imagine the situation for someone who doesn't log on everyday. I'm not sure most people are. If a person only gets a chance to log on once a week. They're taking a 20% training penalty for a week, not a day. Do that enough times and you have seriously slowed down your character growth. A four hour transition would allow them to switch to PvP for that evening's activities and then switch back that same evening.

A couple of things, and I am trying to address comments from two of your posts, so I will try and not make it confusing.



It is. The main thing however is to keep with EVE's general theme of consequences. It is similar to a character transfer. Character transfers cost either 2 plex or $25. Now character transfer is really cool. I can't think of any other games that had this feature. But when you read CCP's reason for why they charge, it is to limit character transfers. I just moved an alt to another account so I could reactivate his training without pausing this character. But I really had to think about whether it was going to be worth 2 PLEX to do so.

Jump clones did not always exist in the game, so people REALLY had to decide what implants to use. When you decide to switch clones there is a consequence in that you are commited to that clone for a period of time. That is overall good for the game and I support that. Personally I would love to see a reduction slightly so that you aren't required to wait essentially until after a downtime. But going as low as 2 to four hours would have dramatic impacts to the game.

Keep in mind that in addition to utilizing new implants, jump clones are essentially a way to travel as well. You can leave a JC in far off 0.0 space and be able to jump to HS in a blink of an eye. Allowing people to do that every 2 or 4 hours can exacserbate the already problematic issues of force projection this game has via jump bridges and titan bridges.



I'm sorry but this is a largely bogus argument. While I am sure there are players that physcially are unable to log in all of the time (travel, lack of connectivity) by in large the bulk I am sure have the ability, even if they may not actually play every day. By your example if a person only gets a chance to log in once a week they are going to have more problems than just their implants. That is unless they only have skills that last longer than a week to train, because they will have empty skill queues all the time.

You may not play every day. But I'm willing to bet when EVEMON tells you your queue is under 24 hours remaining you can find 30 seconds to log in and add some skills right? If you can log in for 30 sec to update your queue, you can log in for 30 seconds and clone jump back.

And you are backwards in your thinking. You are not taking a penalty when this occurs, you are simply not getting a boost. Yes this is largely a semantics argument but it is important. It again goes to the choices and consequences aspect of EVE (which is an important part of what makes this game so awesome). We all train at the same base rate. You get a bonus if you want to spend/risk the isk for the higher end implants.

Clone swapping at a station on a shorter timer (perhaps 12 or 18 hours, though I wouldn't scream GAME BREAKING if it was at-will) would be more reasonable than reducing the jump clone timer to a couple of hours. Reducing the JC timer to 23 hours to get rid of the weird downtime issues would be nice, but people more educated in null than I am can explain in depth why hopping across the universe at a whim is not good.

I have my expensive pod that I use when I want to get the utmost out of my ships and training time, and I hop into a cheaper clone when I'm going on a cheapship suicide roam. Spending a day in +3s is not the end of the world.

I want real options, not the take it or leave it that you ultimately end up getting with monopolies and communist governments. That's where I feel most of these arguments fall flat. Take it or leave it isn't a real choice. Choices should be meaningful and real. Perhaps you could pay a fee to transfer more quickly. Maybe you could use an alternative where you can switch inside the 24 hours, but then the next switch takes 72 hours.

I read these forums and every single day that I do there is someone clamoring for more PVP participation. Image a football match where every single game you came away significantly injured. Participation would be a lot lower. Every time I look around someone is saying don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Well I can't take out my implants so I guess I just shouldn't fly around eh? Or maybe we could find another way.

As for EVEMON. If I know there's a chance I won't log on for awhile then I'll train one of the many V's and that gives me a good one to four week buffer. I certainly don't have to log on all the time to train up. Right now I'm training Advanced Laboratory Operation to IV (~5 days) and Minmatar Industrial V (~16 days) on my two characters respectively. Certainly not an every day log on kind of thing.

You have TONS of choices. Just because they are choices you don't like doesn't mean it is simply "take it or leave it".



I didn't bother the first time you mentioned it, but your football match analogy doesn't even make sense. Participating in PVP, even by using a jump clone doesn't leave you significantly injured and unable to play. You can play the game just fine. Yea for a short period of time you train a little slower, but that is NOTHING like an athlete injured and out of the game.

And no, if you can't afford to lose your +5's you shouldnt be flying around in them. There are more pod kills in Highsec than lowsec. In the last 24 hours there were twice as many podkills in Jita than Rancer (and I pick rancer as it is known for its smartbomb camps that nail tons of pods).




And in most cases I'd bet you could make sure you are back in your +5 clone as well...

I will use myself as an example of how the choices in the game work, and how it isn't an issue.

I started the game in 2011 (my toon is half the age of yours). From 5 months in I decided I loved wormholes, and have been living in them ever since. As a result I never use more than +3 implants due to the dangers of WH space. That was my choice and it works fine. I may train slower than you, but I am enjoying the aspects of the game that I want to play. I made the choice of living in dangerous space. My consequence is I cannot afford to use the highest level implants that I could.

You have made the choice of max SP gain. As a consequence you find it harder to do risky things as you are flying with implants you don't want to, or can't afford to lose. Your choice and your corresponding consequence.

The problem with EVE is that it's very, very unfriendly to people who don't make it a daily part of their lives or at least a very frequent part of their lives.

PVP. You two should try it sometime, and get back to us about pod death.

Just like soccer is unfriendly to casuals who play maybe once a month, only those who play everyday have a chance to play in UEFA finals. Happy with the analogy?

And yes, you do come to the sandbox and act like a spoiled child. The sandbox offers you two choices- use gear that you can actually afford, or make more isk.

That said, I could afford to pvp in full +5s. The training time gain they provide is however not worth it. In fact net gain from using them is 0 SP in the first year. You're obsessing over something very minor, use a cheap clone if you are spacepoor and enjoy the game without stress from clone loss. That is what all others do.

I'm assuming I'm one of the "two". And I'm not quite sure what your point is other than just get out there and do it.

Exactly. Hop into a clean clone, leave your expensive implants behind, and get your fear of death and training time loss over with. Soonest begun, soonest done. I promise it doesn't hurt, and you really won't miss the few hundred SP difference that a day of PVP in a clean clone will give you. If you're really interested in PVP, this is the only way it's ever going to happen for you, because I seriously doubt that attribute implants are ever going away, and we both know that any sort of jump clone revamp is extremely low on the list of priorities.

Your other option is to use an alt for PVP, but that means an additional account, buying a character, or pausing training on your main to train an alt on your current account.

Remove jump clones from the game.

I once propsed idea to remove attribute implants completly. That would make hundreds of people just start to pvp or pve in low/null whenever they want. They would be ok with possibility of losing the ship , paying for clone etc. But they are not ok with losing training time. I can understand this.

Keep only implants like Slaves, Crystals etc ... You want to buff yourself in pvp , pve with implants ? Still possible. But placing mandatory(let's be honest) implants in your head is kinda worst thing that happend to pvp. People are ok with losing clone, pvp frigate along with fit worth maybe 10kk but are quiet not ok with losing 500kk in implants along with pitiful 10kk frigate.

Noone can put reasonable argument behind damn attribute implants. Just rise all attributes for all toons across the board +5. Gj now why train cybernetics ? Plenty of reasons : slaves, crystals , snakes , genoltuion, skill hardwire.

Give this game best change ever - remove attributes implant. You do this and i will pvp EVERY SINGLE DAY. I will provide you many KM's every single day. But cba to lose training time becuase i have to sit in damn jump clone. Wow damn 24h jump clone. It's not even about time i don't want jump clones at all. Remove them along with attribute implants.

Whoever thinks it's bad idea must really be out of this world. You don't want those carebears jump into low sec in GREAT NUMBERS ? Because now all they risk is thier ship and clone ? You don't want number of pvping people doubled,tripled or even more ? Really you don't want ? If not keep those implants and keep those people in high sec because of that. I would do pve content in low sec and pvp all the time if you would remove those bloody implants. Now i do travel to low sec but not very often and try not to pvp - usually on pve bussiness - mostly short ones.

I would rather the reduction get reduced to 20 hours for jumping to a JC in a different station, and have jumping between clones in the same station have 0 cooldown.

The difference here versus your proposal (which I think has merit, don't get me wrong), is that you don't have people jumping Hi-Sec down to Null, doing a roam with their Alliance/Defending POS/whatever and then jumping back out once that is done. That should be discouraged.

If you are willing to physically fly to Null and jump into a PVP JC at the station you dock at though? I think that solves the ping pong Hi/Low <-> Null stuff.

Just raw number of posts and topics about attribute implants would tell you there is something wrong. But i'm not gonna discuss with trolls. Keep those implants in game and reduced pvp players. Oh well ;). In before of more "everything is ok" ... so sad it's not.

what makes eve PvP so exciting is the sense of loss, and the loss of ur expensive implants is part of that.

just like here its a load of risk averse players wanting to have all the benefits with no compromise.

That said, I could afford to pvp in full +5s. The training time gain they provide is however not worth it. In fact net gain from using them is 0 SP in the first year.

By the looks of your character name I'm sure you "Banzai" on every group of ships you find out even knowing you're gonna die without killing one of them, because you're not a risk averse guy right?

And also because you're not a risk averse guy you don't use safe spots to gtfo is things turn bad for you.

You always pvp with HG Slave or Chrystal and named implants because you're not a risk averse guy, right?

And because you're not a risk averse guy I'm sure you always faction/officer fit your pvp ships, amirite again?

So you, the not risk averse uber player, can for once give us some lessons of humility indeed.

Edit: Ho I just forgot you don't use OGB neither because you're so awesome not risk averse guy, right again?

While the difference gain in between +4's and +5's is very small, I wouldn't say using +4's vs 0 implants brings no gain and it's unworthy.

I once propsed idea to remove attribute implants completly. That would make hundreds of people just start to pvp or pve in low/null whenever they want. They would be ok with possibility of losing the ship , paying for clone etc. But they are not ok with losing training time. I can understand this.

Keep only implants like Slaves, Crystals etc ... You want to buff yourself in pvp , pve with implants ? Still possible. But placing mandatory(let's be honest) implants in your head is kinda worst thing that happend to pvp. People are ok with losing clone, pvp frigate along with fit worth maybe 10kk but are quiet not ok with losing 500kk in implants along with pitiful 10kk frigate.

Noone can put reasonable argument behind damn attribute implants. Just rise all attributes for all toons across the board +5. Gj now why train cybernetics ? Plenty of reasons : slaves, crystals , snakes , genoltuion, skill hardwire.

Give this game best change ever - remove attributes implant. You do this and i will pvp EVERY SINGLE DAY. I will provide you many KM's every single day. But cba to lose training time becuase i have to sit in damn jump clone. Wow damn 24h jump clone. It's not even about time i don't want jump clones at all. Remove them along with attribute implants.

Whoever thinks it's bad idea must really be out of this world. You don't want those carebears jump into low sec in GREAT NUMBERS ? Because now all they risk is thier ship and clone ? You don't want number of pvping people doubled,tripled or even more ? Really you don't want ? If not keep those implants and keep those people in high sec because of that. I would do pve content in low sec and pvp all the time if you would remove those bloody implants. Now i do travel to low sec but not very often and try not to pvp - usually on pve bussiness - mostly short ones.

Surely, but what's the problem? Two +4s are practically free.

what is this post even trying to say?

How hard it is to uderstand what a sandbox is?