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Fellhand	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:30:00 - [1] Now, I understand why ore theft has always been allowed to stand and, mostly I support that. However, I can't help feeling that the determination to allow ore theft to go unregulated has gotten rather out of hand when we now have ore thief "protection rackets" operating in 0.9 space. The gist of it is, first ore thief comes along and grabs your ore then opens a channel and issues a threat along the lines of "give me X amount of isk or me and my buddies will make it impossible for you to mine". Of course, that's made worse by the fact that you can't anchor secure cans in high-sec so if you're mining with a decent ship, jetcans are your only realistic option. Like I said, I can understand why there's always been this resistence to regulating ore theft but when it's got so prevelent that a group of players can (presumably) make a living by saying (effectively) "pay us this to stop us buggering up your game time", I think it can safely be said to have got out of hand. _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:32:00 - [2] Thinking abou tit, wouldn't that be an exploit? You're exploiting the mechanics of the game to (effectively) engage in piracy in areas where piracy is normally not allowed (active wardec aside). _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
Therin Jestyr	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:34:00 - [3] Sounds more like extortion to me. I don't see how this is an exploit...
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:35:00 - [4] fellhand no because there are tools to help u in protecting youre ore - those tools are join a corp that mines that space - and have someone hauling anything from jetcans. It requires co operation and joining a corp but most often they will do large mining ops in high sec and split the minerals in a evenhanded way. That is the way u will avoid ore theives going it solo raises the risks its that simple. So suggestion use the tools available to u and move on.
Vladimir Illyvich	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:35:00 - [5] petition them for harassment. /shrug if you have a 'decent' ship, you should be able to handle mining in areas low enough to anchor cans at, anyways.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:39:00 - [6] There is no reason to petition if extortion was an exploit then everyone would petition pirate corps blackmailing small corps into giving them weekly ISK payments to avoid shooting them esp in aridia. Its NOT an exploit its a valid occupation and role within the game world the way to avoid it... JOIN A HIGH SEC MINING CORP AND DO CORP MINING OPS SPLIT THE MINERALS (MOST MINING CORPS USE MINING BARGES) SO INTAKES ARE LARGER. this game requires co op in some parts the other option is afk mining with a industrial ship and a 1x mining 2 laser in high sec 0.8 and up and or the other option use youre mining char and an alt hauling a hauler u will need 2 PCs to do this. That can work.
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:48:00 - [7] OK, "exploit" was the wrong word, "extortion" was better. Just strikes me as weird to be running a protection racket in high-sec space. And the guys who've just told me, use secure cans, join a high-sec corp or whatever, thank you for missing the point. It was about a behaviour which struck me as weird, not my reaction to it. _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:54:00 - [8] extortion rackets are common in eve its only successful if u allow them to operate by paying them - ignore them join a high sec mining corp and then they part 1 or 2 haulers right near the jet can while others mine in gruop ops - the ore theives cant get at the cans in any great amount of m3 ore wise because the haulers should be pulling it inot their cargo holds straight away - hence lessened ore theifing and hence those extortion rackets dont work.
Caeden Nicomachean	Posted - 2005.07.26 04:55:00 - [9] Originally by: sonofollo There is no reason to petition if extortion was an exploit then everyone would petition pirate corps blackmailing small corps into giving them weekly ISK payments to avoid shooting them esp in aridia. Its NOT an exploit its a valid occupation and role within the game world the way to avoid it... JOIN A HIGH SEC MINING CORP AND DO CORP MINING OPS SPLIT THE MINERALS (MOST MINING CORPS USE MINING BARGES) SO INTAKES ARE LARGER. this game requires co op in some parts the other option is afk mining with a industrial ship and a 1x mining 2 laser in high sec 0.8 and up and or the other option use youre mining char and an alt hauling a hauler u will need 2 PCs to do this. That can work. Caps/yelling a response always make an argument much more valid In empire, not sure exactly what a mining crew would do differently - still either have to move to another system or watch with a hawkeye, petition, declare war, etc. Still a hassle. Have to give the perpetrators credit for creative griefing, but its griefing all the same.
Caeden Nicomachean	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:06:00 - [10] BTW, see this thread about ore thieving. There are a couple of others in the series. Interesting stuff Comes down to, don't jetcan mine without a hauler alt, a hauler friend, or an out of the way system. And the griefing part I mentioned would be if the gits followed you from system.
Rhedea	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Fellhand ... when we now have ore thief "protection rackets" operating in 0.9 space. The gist of it is, first ore thief comes along and grabs your ore then opens a channel and issues a threat along the lines of "give me X amount of isk or me and my buddies will make it impossible for you to mine"... a group of players can (presumably) make a living by saying (effectively) "pay us this to stop us buggering up your game time"... This is just good game play, nothing else, find a way to work around it. Hunter~Trader~Thug
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:17:00 - [12] there are ways around these high sec ore theives in easy terms the joining of a mining corp - having an alt hauler present and other common sense ideas are the tools CCP provide us with dealing with it. The same thing plays in aridia with LEGION-LOOT and MAFIA extorting all the local small corps with 20M a week payment requests. This is more widesparead but the idea remains - corps are now fighting back so therefore their tactics dont work.
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean BTW, see this thread about ore thieving. There are a couple of others in the series. Interesting stuff Comes down to, don't jetcan mine without a hauler alt, a hauler friend, or an out of the way system. And the griefing part I mentioned would be if the gits followed you from system. Which was an implied threat, trust me. Of course, the perp then turned out to be a thirteen year-old of the "u r so **" school so we all had fun ridiculign him for a few minutes until he logged off because we refused to believe he was 38. Thanks for the thread. Problem is, by the time it got halfway down the first page, it degenerated into the usual: Ore Thieves on one side saying (effectively) "you should feel happy we're taking your efforts" and the miners on the other going "for gawd's sake, ebil griefers". And then the usual rubbish about jetcan mining being an exploit and so on and so on and we've all read this arguement a dowzen times and... snork*, sorry, drifted off there. I find it fascinating how much of the Eve player base essentially breaks down to either "we want to be left entirely alone" or "we want free reign to do anything we like with no repurcussions". _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:42:00 - [14] well we have suggested mega giant sec cans ie 10k m3. But the real way around it is fellhand find a mining corp in high sec space join em - co op with em help em with hauling and mining and they usually split the minerals or take a 10% -20% cut on the mineral or ISK take. But extortion as such weather it be 13 year old ore theives or large organised pirate corps is a valid part of the game. Hence there is no way around it unless we get criminal flagging of jetcans. Which isnt happening yet .... coming soon (TM)
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:54:00 - [15] Originally by: sonofollo well we have suggested mega giant sec cans ie 10k m3. But the real way around it is fellhand find a mining corp in high sec space join em - co op with em help em with hauling and mining and they usually split the minerals or take a 10% -20% cut on the mineral or ISK take. But extortion as such weather it be 13 year old ore theives or large organised pirate corps is a valid part of the game. Hence there is no way around it unless we get criminal flagging of jetcans. Which isnt happening yet .... coming soon (TM) Criminal flagging of jetcans? Yeah right, the pirates would never shut up about it and get it nerfed (like they did with instas). To be honest, I quit bothering with high-sec corps after my first one was the target of the ubiquitus "empire war-dec with no hope of resistance". You know the kind, they wardec on a high-sec corp which doesn't have the ISK to hire mercs and has no real hope of defending themselves just to have some soft targets. Well the corp fell apart of course and I just never bothered joining another one. Now, I just mine low-end mins and manufacture cheap, common stuff that everyone uses (ammo for example). Profit margins are pretty low but it's always in demand. It was just such a surreal tactic to be honest. I'm not a big fan of the "what if a newbie..." arguement but I do have to wonder what happens if/when this sort of thing becomes prevelant (and it might well do because there is a certain faction that will do absolutely anything rather than work for their ISK). _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 05:57:00 - [16] u should also be aware most of the alliances have empire mining divisions they pay good rates and offer protection for their mienrs. Perhaps you should consider that.
Fellhand	Posted - 2005.07.26 06:03:00 - [17] Call me cynical but I really can't see many alliances being very interested in "here's another 50, 000 rounds of med anti-matter boss". _______________________________________________ There is no such thing as too much cynicism Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats... Beware of geeks bearing gifs
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.26 06:06:00 - [18] take ESE (FIX corp member) for example they have a empire mining devision - those members that just mine high sec belts in an undisclosed system to supply the 0.0 crew with minerals to build their ships etc they also pay just below market rates for minerals mined by members. If u have a mining barge its easy money and with corps now building freighters to haul minerals those empire mining corps roles will increase in importance.
Basileus	Posted - 2005.07.26 06:37:00 - [19] Hurrah! Another oire-thief-thread. Great!
Number One	Posted - 2005.07.26 07:14:00 - [20] You guys are missing the boat on this one. Why take anyones jet can or ore for that matter. Look at all the players in empire with barges and mod strippers using T2 crystals.... whats more valuable ????? I am not going to say anymore, you can figure it out. I plead the 5th on any other questions reguarding this matter. There is no good or evil in the universe only POWER!
Del Narveux	Posted - 2005.07.26 07:31:00 - [21] I dont have a problem with ore theives or these 'protection' rackets per se, what I have the problem with are the jackasses who do it while in an NPC corp to avoid war dec. That, if anything in this game, should be considered an exploit because aside from giving all NPC corps a bad name it is a clear and blatant exploit of NPC-corp protection. In short, its total bull**** that miners have to take risks when mining in secure space but theives who prey on them dont have to. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Andrue	Posted - 2005.07.26 07:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Fellhand Like I said, I can understand why there's always been this resistence to regulating ore theft but when it's got so prevelent that a group of players can (presumably) make a living by saying (effectively) "pay us this to stop us buggering up your game time", I think it can safely be said to have got out of hand. That would only be possible if anyone is so stupid as to pay up. No one with any sense ever pays ransoms or blackmail money. Someone once tried it with me and I ignored them. They blew the can up but they didn't get anything from me. Ransoming a can is within gameplay rules but people should tell the perpetrator to go hang off a star. If everyone did that the practice would soon die out. After all, by giving in you are effectively paying someone to threaten you and that's just stupid. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.26 08:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Del Narveux I dont have a problem with ore theives or these 'protection' rackets per se, what I have the problem with are the jackasses who do it while in an NPC corp to avoid war dec. That, if anything in this game, should be considered an exploit because aside from giving all NPC corps a bad name it is a clear and blatant exploit of NPC-corp protection. In short, its total bull**** that miners have to take risks when mining in secure space but theives who prey on them dont have to. Irony 4tw. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Del Narveux	Posted - 2005.07.26 09:09:00 - [24] I fail to see the irony. I'm not an ore thief, I don't grief people and then run away, in-game I basically keep to myself and sometimes help new players, welcome them to the community, give advice etc. A lot of people have a lot of fun in the NPC corps but wherever I go people tend to treat me suspiciously thinking Im a theif/spy/etc. It sucks. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Rafein	Posted - 2005.07.26 09:33:00 - [25] I would still petition. If they are doing it to everyone in the system, then sure, they are trying to run an extortion ring, and thus would be legal, under the rules. If they are only offering their "deal" to you, totally disregarding all other players in the system, then it is Harrassment. But only Gm can find out for sure.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.07.26 10:15:00 - [26] Part of me want to see ore theft nerfed into non-existance, mostly because of the morons who try and say that no theft is occuring. But in all honesty, a better option would be as follows: If a player takes something from a jet can that is not from his corp, or gang or alliance, then he will become criminally flagged for ANYONE to shoot at, but it will not be a concord response. He will be able to return fire on those who shoot him. Also, any jet cans the ore thief created can be free looted by the creater of the can the ore thief stole from, and also by anyone ganged with him, even if the ore thief's can was created before the criminal flagging. If anyone ELSE loots the ore thief's can, that person will ALSO become criminally flagged, and have his cans lootable by the same folks who can freely loot the ore thief's cans. As for the morons who seriously state that no theft is occuring because a jet can is a sort of trash can, I sometimes do some training for my RL job that involves trash cans. This training even involves written instructions for folks to "disgard" items into the trash cans. If some idiot tryed to take something from one of my trash cans, he would find himself very much under arrest for theft by the military police, who would then turn him over to the civil authorities, who would convict him for stupid theft. If I was involved with using my trash cans for an actual incident, and not just training, any can thief just might get shot dead. (Trash cans are used as part of a radiological decontamination line.....) That a jet can is a sort of trash can, and folks "disgard" things in them does NOT mean those folks forgo ownership. It only means theft is possible. And if any morons want to be shown as idiots, go ahead and cite the FAQ. The FAQ says that ore theft will not be a Concord response, it does not say it is not theft. For the record, I don't mind folks who role play their ore theft, for example, a "mining inspector", or "green peace roid protector", but when such folks are not "in character" thay don't deny that they are stealing.
Number One	Posted - 2005.07.26 10:17:00 - [27] Ore thieving is not the flavor of the day atm. alot of the pirate corps have moved into the low sec sys's that were once the highways in empire. Look at what the pirates are doing in empire now. How hard is it to inflict heavy losses to a corp in empire by killing all those nice barges??? It takes 3 secs to kill a large barge with a small fleet of kestrels. The pirates loose 500k isk at the most with the miners loosing millions in gear. I am against ore thieving or ganking of that sort, but unless the empire corps that conduct huge mining ops wake up and smell the coffee so to speak, things are going to much worse over the next weeks. When I order 100 mil of trit from one of them I get the giggles alot. How could someone like staring at roids for hours on end I say to myself, but not everyone has the same goals in the game. You guys are going to have to learn how to defend yourself in empire. Traveling with autoP on safest route gets boring after a while and you will try to enter a low sec sys to save a bit of time. Then you will have even more trouble. the Pirates use the mechanics of the game to their favor, why don't you do the same.... There is no good or evil in the universe only POWER!
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.26 10:23:00 - [28] Ore thieving is a childish action... CCP has to give some kinda playground for these children to play in... Just move from 0.9-0.8 to 0.7-0.6 systems. I find with my alts, that even with a hauler, ore thieves can get some ore due to the fact that he can't keep up with two tricked out barges. You can use one sec can as a buffer, but even then, if my hauler account crashes etc, my barges outpace the hauler... They are children out for attention, its best if you just do not give them the opportunity to get this attention... Until CCP revamps the entire mining mechanics (sorely needed), you will have to deal with these asshats... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.26 10:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Sergeant Spot And if any morons want to be shown as idiots, go ahead and cite the FAQ. The FAQ says that ore theft will not be a Concord response, it does not say it is not theft. Ore theft != Ore "theft" The FAQ is quite clear on the subject. "regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space " ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.26 11:35:00 - [30] 1500+ "safe" systems. I'm sure the miners can find a quiet one somewhere.

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