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Rant: Creating a corp is not your god given right.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2812	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:06:00 - [121] - Quote Whitehound wrote: For Christ's sake, check OP's corp history. We refer to it as being weaponized. That thing can crash lesser clients. What does his corp history have to do with the veracity of his statements? Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Arronicus Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made. 244	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:08:00 - [122] - Quote Psychotic Monk wrote: When you, as a terrible CEO, make a corp, you're not potentially wasting your own play time, you're actively harming those around you. So yes, your correct. It's not that you can't, it's that please don't. And yes, you have a right to play however you like. And I do, too. And my play is to crush your play. I'm not telling you how to play so much as I'm begging you to stop harming this game by making terrible players. A terrible CEO will not be able to get many people to join his corp, nor will he be able to carry momentum to continue growing the corp.
Whitehound 894	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:11:00 - [123] - Quote Psychotic Monk wrote: When you, as a terrible CEO, make a corp, you're not potentially wasting your own play time, you're actively harming those around you. So yes, your correct. It's not that you can't, it's that please don't. And yes, you have a right to play however you like. And I do, too. And my play is to crush your play. I'm not telling you how to play so much as I'm begging you to stop harming this game by making terrible players. :violin: Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound 894	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:12:00 - [124] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: For Christ's sake, check OP's corp history. We refer to it as being weaponized. That thing can crash lesser clients. What does his corp history have to do with the veracity of his statements? About as much as the number of corpses stand for the competence of a medical doctor. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Solstice Project Brave Newbies Inc. 2783	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:13:00 - [125] - Quote Arronicus wrote: Psychotic Monk wrote: When you, as a terrible CEO, make a corp, you're not potentially wasting your own play time, you're actively harming those around you. So yes, your correct. It's not that you can't, it's that please don't. And yes, you have a right to play however you like. And I do, too. And my play is to crush your play. I'm not telling you how to play so much as I'm begging you to stop harming this game by making terrible players. A terrible CEO will not be able to get many people to join his corp, nor will he be able to carry momentum to continue growing the corp. No. Again, talking about experience with noobs. There are LOTS of terrible CEOs out there that just ask people to join their corp, just so the members number increases. These people are completely left alone ! There are way too many bittervets ruining noobs by not showing them ALL the possibilities, but instead making them mining or mission running for isk, which are the most boring thing to do ! That's not eve my words. I get this from noobs who have flown with me. A lot !
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1419	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:16:00 - [126] - Quote It's very true. Best advice you can give to any new player is join an established corp.
Felicity Love STARKRAFT 282	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:17:00 - [127] - Quote Oh lookie... someone else got a "day pass" for the 'Net... Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies"
Psychotic Monk The Skunkworks 734	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:23:00 - [128] - Quote Whitehound wrote: About as much as the number of corpses stand for the competence of a medical doctor. You wanna make an unpickable lock, you talk to a locksmith. You wanna make a safe car, you talk to the guy that runs the crash tests. You wanna make a corp that can't be shattered by a runaway fart, you talk to me. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2816	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:25:00 - [129] - Quote Rather than try to catch up on this, I'm just going to pitch in by telling my own story. I started play Eve with four real-life friends. We made our own corp and explored the game. We did a pretty fair job of figuring things out for ourselves, but there were whole areas that we simply didn't understand. We were surprised by aggression mechanics, wars, locator agents, and various other things that could have been avoided with the counsel of someone with a little experience. And the sad thing is, after all the infiltrations, wars, ganks, and scams I've executed on the sort of people Monk is ranting about, I've come to realize that a small band of noobs with no help fared better than much larger groups run by people who have played the game much longer. Now, to those saying that veteran players would just take advantage of noobs: I disagree. Monk and the rest of the Skunks took me on as a novice to PVP. I had the attitude they were looking for and they were willing to teach me because of that. I walked into a den of thieves asking for lessons...and they taught me. It becomes increasingly apparent to me that corporations and alliances that focus on PVE content are composed of incredibly self-serving people. Their mentality of treating the wallet balance as a high score leads to decisions to abandon people in need and a crippling inability to defend themselves for fear of losing. I've seen Belligerents fly 20+ jumps to help out people they barely know, for no reason other than because we enjoy playing the game the same way. It's truly enlightening to see the "bad guy" community of highsec engage in more cooperation and support of each other than most corporations manage. There are days that I think about forming my own more "traditional" highsec corp. One full of miners and mission runners and incursion fleets. I'd teach them how to properly conduct themselves in such a way that they could eventually transition into low/null/w-space, or stay in highsec and survive in the face of ganks and wardecs and griefers and the New Order. But the more I think about it, the more it sounds like a job. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2816	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:27:00 - [130] - Quote Whitehound wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: For Christ's sake, check OP's corp history. We refer to it as being weaponized. That thing can crash lesser clients. What does his corp history have to do with the veracity of his statements? About as much as the number of corpses stand for the competence of a medical doctor. By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Whitehound 894	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:28:00 - [131] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: It's very true. Best advice you can give to any new player is join an established corp. No. You assume that the new player did actually ask for your advice, in which case you would be right, but you should also point out the option to create a new corp and to leave the final decision to the new player. You should not make the decision for him, but only help him to make a sound decision. Do not let your own personal experience, if positive or negative, mislead you in your judgement, which is what you do when you do not show him all the options but only tell the new player what you believe is best for him. He needs to make this decision for himself. If the first step is done wrong, then it might well be because the new player was given expectations he should not have, like saying a new corp is good for this and that reason and then it turns out to be untrue in his case. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2816	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:35:00 - [132] - Quote I'd also like to point out that while Monk and I devote a large portion of our Eve time to smashing faces in, we also take the time to stop and talk to ANY player who we think will be receptive to help. I make it a habit to congratulate people who mine at war yet are consistently on their toes enough to avoid being ganked. I've explained to people who bothered to ask how it was that I found them. I've given newbies fitting advice, and even referred some of them to friends of mine who operate more competently-run PVE outfits in high and null. If you're bright enough to ask what you did wrong, I'm going to answer it. I respect anyone who is willing to learn and improve. Contrary to popular belief, we don't want the playerbase to remain ignorant so that we can continue smashing their heads in. We want them to get better, because the more competitive they are, the better we're forced to be. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Crumplecorn Eve Cluster Explorations 321	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:35:00 - [133] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Jack Miton wrote: It's very true. Best advice you can give to any new player is join an established corp. No. You assume that the new player did actually ask for your advice, in which case you would be right, but you should also point out the option to create a new corp and to leave the final decision to the new player. You should not make the decision for him, but only help him to make a sound decision. 'Advice' seems to be another word you have trouble with. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=rnd[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation)
Whitehound 894	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:37:00 - [134] - Quote Psychotic Monk wrote: You wanna make a corp that can't be shattered by a runaway fart, you talk to me. Do not make me laugh! Of course you now would want anyone to believe this, because with your corp record is there hardly anyone in EVE who would still trust you and so now you pretend to be the repentant sinner and saviour of noob corps. My advise to you: biomass. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound 894	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:42:00 - [135] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: For Christ's sake, check OP's corp history. We refer to it as being weaponized. That thing can crash lesser clients. What does his corp history have to do with the veracity of his statements? About as much as the number of corpses stand for the competence of a medical doctor. By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. Oh, do not get me wrong. Medical doctors do get to work on a lot of dead bodies before they are allowed to work on the living. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Bane Veradun Black Sun Dawning 0	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:42:00 - [136] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Takseen wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: How many times have we read on here that someone "went to null sec, lost everything and went back to lvl 4 mission running"? Never, actually. And I've been on these forums way too long. Nullsec is unappealing because its the playground of the big alliances. Even the residents complain about a lot of its features. Its easily the weakest region of Eve at the moment. I'm sorry, i couldn't hear you over the sound of the Vindicator BPC i just looted from a Serpentis 10/10. Could you repeat that? So which is it then? The hisec rewards don't fit the risk? or Nulsec is seriously anemic compared to hisec. Choose one, but know that both choices are essentially mistruths. As for the OP... Your rant, which somehow makes it as far as it does being labeled as such, contains small nuggets of wisdom in an otherwise gaudy packaging. It also relies on the generalization that all new corps created by new players are as such. Broad strokes do nothing but leave you open for quick jabs. While you only co-opt the darkness for your petty purposes, I was borne of the darkness.
Whitehound 894	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:43:00 - [137] - Quote Crumplecorn wrote: 'Advice' seems to be another word you have trouble with. No, I don't. Are you disagreeing again? Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 1199	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:45:00 - [138] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: I started play Eve with four real-life friends. We made our own corp and explored the game. We did a pretty fair job of figuring things out for ourselves, but there were whole areas that we simply didn't understand. We were surprised by aggression mechanics, wars, locator agents, and various other things that could have been avoided with the counsel of someone with a little experience. And the sad thing is, after all the infiltrations, wars, ganks, and scams I've executed on the sort of people Monk is ranting about, I've come to realize that a small band of noobs with no help fared better than much larger groups run by people who have played the game much longer. I quoted this because it echos my own experience. We were a bit different because one of our number was an ex-Goon from the BoB days, but he pretty much welped his way through the game anyway and helped us with the bare essentials (don't dual tank, homogenize guns, that sort of thing); I daresay I know more about the game than he does now because I pay more attention to dev blogs and the forums. Of course, we'd die hilariously doing stupid **** like hauling a faction tower into low-sec without scouting and treating Amamake like a highway, but we never had anyone there telling us not to do something (and even egging us on in most cases). I think that's one of the reasons we're still with the game (those of us without RL adrenal problems, anyway): no one was there telling us what not to do. NPC corp chat with its "forever nubs" is one of the worst things you can inflict on newbies. Far better to glom them together into small corps where they can learn the ropes together. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2817	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:46:00 - [139] - Quote Whitehound wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. Oh, do not get me wrong. Medical doctors do get to work on a lot of dead bodies before they are allowed to work on the living. Methinks you don't understand my point. Your typical family doctor isn't going to have a lot of dead bodies. They treat mostly-healthy people. Oncologists treat cancer patients. Which one is the more competent doctor? The one with the lowest mortality rate? Likewise, Monk's corp history is irrelevant here, because you don't understand what it is he was doing in those corps. He has been my CEO for almost two years now, even when we were both in non-Skunkworks corporations. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Joran Dravius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:53:00 - [140] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: For Christ's sake, check OP's corp history. We refer to it as being weaponized. That thing can crash lesser clients. What does his corp history have to do with the veracity of his statements? About as much as the number of corpses stand for the competence of a medical doctor. By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. And dentists are the best doctors of all.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2817	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:02:00 - [141] - Quote Bane Veradun wrote: As for the OP... Your rant, which somehow makes it as far as it does being labeled as such, contains small nuggets of wisdom in an otherwise gaudy packaging. It also relies on the generalization that all new corps created by new players are as such. Broad strokes do nothing but leave you open for quick jabs. I think any literate person can understand that Monk's point isn't that ALL noob corps are bad, but that a LOT of them are. In my own experience, I was quite happy with the corp I started in; we learned a lot together and had fun. But that's the thing: we did stuff together. We explored new things. We started off running missions together. Then we discovered salvaging, which led us to manufacturing, which led us to researching, which got us interested in mining (so we could build more things). After a while we got into exploration and then daytripping in wormholes. But most highsec corps I've seen operate do so in one of two ways: either as the CEO dictates with no effort by the others to explore other options in the game, or piecemeal with everyone doing their own thing and no one sharing information. When I'm actively attacking people on a heavily-used route and other members of that alliance are using the same route, there's something wrong...either the last person to die didn't report my location, or the next person to die ignored the intel and blundered into me. If I were running that alliance, any member who neglected to pass on or heed wartime intel would be kicked. Not because I care about killboards or war reports, but because I have no tolerance for idiots. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Whitehound 895	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:07:00 - [142] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Methinks you don't understand my point. No, I do not care for your point. There is a difference here. There are many ways to run a corp and even the biggest alliances have collapsed. Why should there be different rules for small, new corps? OP really should be posting in the recruitment section of the forum and try his luck there. I doubt he will find many followers here in GD for his cause. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Joran Dravius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 122	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:09:00 - [143] - Quote Takseen wrote: Aye, and fair play to ya. I have a bunch of BNI propaganda saved in a folder. Very impressive. I vaguely remember you from before I quit. I don't really remember who you are, but I instinctively get angry every time I see your name on the forum. I'm guessing at some point you were saying a lot of stuff I didn't like. Good news though! I've seen a lot of your posts since coming back and none of them made me want to pod you, or at least not more than I already want to pod most people. So...uh...congratulations? Keep up the good work I guess.
Joran Dravius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 122	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:11:00 - [144] - Quote Arronicus wrote: Psychotic Monk wrote: When you, as a terrible CEO, make a corp, you're not potentially wasting your own play time, you're actively harming those around you. So yes, your correct. It's not that you can't, it's that please don't. And yes, you have a right to play however you like. And I do, too. And my play is to crush your play. I'm not telling you how to play so much as I'm begging you to stop harming this game by making terrible players. A terrible CEO will not be able to get many people to join his corp, nor will he be able to carry momentum to continue growing the corp. On the contrary, terrible corps tend to be quite large due to indiscriminate recruiting.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3611	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:13:00 - [145] - Quote Joran Dravius wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Whitehound wrote: For Christ's sake, check OP's corp history. We refer to it as being weaponized. That thing can crash lesser clients. What does his corp history have to do with the veracity of his statements? About as much as the number of corpses stand for the competence of a medical doctor. By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. And dentists are the best doctors of all. Insert obvious gynecologist joke here. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 2822	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:18:00 - [146] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Joran Dravius wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. And dentists are the best doctors of all. Insert obvious gynecologist joke here. I'm pretty sure OB/GYNs win out. After all, their net score is the only one that should run into the positives. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Joran Dravius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 122	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:22:00 - [147] - Quote Whitehound wrote: Joran Dravius wrote: Someone who speaks the English language. Ignorant means you don't have knowledge about something. New players are ignorant. That's what makes them new players. When they've been playing long enough to be knowledgeable they're not new players anymore. You are arrogant and ignorant! Do you believe a new player does not know that he is new to the game? Do you believe they need you to point this out to them? To be patronized by some wannabe leader?? Anyone who would take up on your judgement is doomed to be lead by a fool. This I doubt is not what the OP had in mind, but, hey, lead away! The more, the merrier. So my choices are to share your delusion of the existence of new players who are experts at Eve or else I'm arrogant and patronizing? Refusing to deny facts doesn't make me either of those things. All newbies are ignorant, including me when I was a newbie. I can't just call up Webster and tell them to change the definition of ignorant. I was actually probably more ignorant than recent newbies when I was in their shoes. There was no tutorial then, the meta-game hadn't been established and everyone I could ask for advice was just as ignorant as me.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3612	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:25:00 - [148] - Quote Whitehound wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Methinks you don't understand my point. No, I do not care for your point. There is a difference here. There are many ways to run a corp and even the biggest alliances have collapsed. Why should there be different rules for small, new corps? OP really should be posting in the recruitment section of the forum and try his luck there. I doubt he will find many followers here in GD for his cause. I'm curious, what exactly do you think "his cause" is? From where I sit it is simply "if you decide to start a corp as a new player, try your best not to be bad at it as you may ruin the EvE experience for other new players inadvertantly", and then lists some of the things to avoid. It's good advice and he has a point. New players in a corp like that really don't have the frame of reference that the rest of us do as to how easy it is for a corp to be bad or fold... and that it's not the end of the world if you have to move on. So try to avoid these mistakes. I'm not sure what you find wrong with that message. You've always struck me as the type that would gladly give advice to a new player starting their own corp. To me one of the best pieces of advice has always been "don't hold your corp members back because of their age" and whenever possible "learn from someone who has already become proficient at what you are interested in doing, whatever it may be". Locking new players into specific limited roles in a corp is a very common mistake new player CEO's make. In the past I have been guilty of it myself. Nothing wrong with steering them away from this if possible. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Joran Dravius Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 123	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:25:00 - [149] - Quote Sorry for the double post, but I hit my quote limit. FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: Joran Dravius wrote: FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: By that metric, a family practitioner is much more competent than an oncologist. And dentists are the best doctors of all. Insert obvious gynecologist joke here. I'm pretty sure OB/GYNs win out. After all, their net score is the only one that should run into the positives. The metric was number of corpses and pregnant women have miscarriages. I stand by my dentist choice. Nobody ever dies from a cavity.
LHA Tarawa Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 410	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:27:00 - [150] - Quote Psychotic Monk wrote: LHA Tarawa wrote: I don't think anyone is telling the new players this stuff. It is literally happening, yes. I've seen internal mails from corps I've decced to not undock anything for the entire duration of the war because if they lose something it will encourage other people to also dec them. It is a sad, ****** state of affairs. This is an absolute standing order for the high sec alliance I associate with, and all the industrial corps I've run. BUT, this is the agreement LONG before I let the potential recruits join. FIRST, they have to be interested in industry, THEN not interested in PVP, then agree to NOT loose a ship should we get a war dec. When I ran a corp, if you lost a ship during a war, you were kicked out of my corp, and you KNEW that before joining. For an industrialist, WAR is bad for profits and is to be avoided at all costs. As I've pointed out before, I'd rather lose 1 billion ISK by not undocking than undock, make 1 billion, and lose 100 million to war targets. WHY? Not because of the loss... Because of the additional war decs the loss will bring. The ONLY way to limit the number of war decs that you get, is to blue ball the war dec'ers. It is our ONLY defense against the dec system.

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