Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.

Didn't they just add some weird ass route lines to the screen when travelling in space?
You mean THOSE kind of things take precedence over things like SOV?
They aren't all that busy, they just really could give a damn about it. They'd rather have cool color lines in space.

Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible.

they should just make highsec into nullsec so these gankers, cant hide all the time from people ie.

remove stations make players build their own stations like we do in null set up posses for safe spots etc, but have a certain area for only new players to enter and be safe from all the blah blah so they dont get run out of the game in the first week.

Targets.

The ability to disrupt the industrial base of your enemies.
People making their bread where they live.
etc.

To me there are High Sec only (or EVE-lite) players and "full" EVE players who play everywhere including high sec.

I have no problem with the EVE-lite players so long as they understand they are choosing to play a pvp based game.

I don't care where you ******* play, if you get blown up in a frieghter it's your own damned fault.

And if you're a serious industrialist, regardless of where you play, you own and fly a frieghter to move your ****, or you're a tool who's to scared to take a loss and pay someone else to do it for you.

Yes, we move **** around already in freighters.

FYP.

You should be able to achieve higher marginal revenue in Nullsec because your costs are much, much higher than in HS.

By the way.

You're talking to a number of them.

I assume you meant Gǣback to highGǥGǪ

Anyway, no. jBecause if you do it right, moving back to high doesn't offer any advantages. Yes, you'll be safer when you few without escorts or intel, but the price and inconvenience of that security (and lack of production capability GÇö read: lower throughput and thus lower profits) would not be worth it.

If you attract targets when the industrials move out, then great! It means the combat pilots will have fun things to do. It means that roaming around in your own space would yield viable and valuable targets to attack. You have a border to protect. It means the fights come to you, at home, where it's nice and close and comfy, rather than having to hunt for them aaaall the way over there.

Pretty much all of us are. It's just the bears that have something against it, since they have problems seeing outside their bubble and imagine all the good it would do.

What numbers are you looking for? HS is Free, Risk Free, Unlimited, and Convenient. How do you propose to compete with that when Nullsec is automatically not Free*, Risk Free**, or Convenient*** (I'll assume step one of any Fix is increasing station slots in outposts, so we'll grant nullsec unlimited slots for the sake of argument.)?

*Gotta build stations or run POSes, so slots are not, and never will be, free.
**Get invaded, lose anything in build, at a minimum.
***Freighter on Autopilot is more convenient than a JF.

Any fee that would allow Null to be competitive without reducing the slots in HS would lock out newbies just as effectively as a wait time.
Remember, Competitive Manufacturing in Nullsec has to pay for 2 way transport in a JF.
But at least we're getting somewhere.

The end goal of an industry revamp in null-sec is that it should be more worthwhile to build battleships and other high-volume items locally than it should be to import them. Right now, that's not the case. The reason why is a matter of volume movement. If I want sixty battleships in VFK, I buy them in Jita, load them up in a jump freighter, and jump to VFK. It takes about nine round trips total, plus five trips by freighter from Jita to my jump-out point.

What if I want to build those? Well, first I buy all the minerals... not to build sixty Maelstroms, but to build 6,250 425 mm Railgun Is. The mineral content for that many Maelstroms is about 8.5 million m3, so moving them raw via jump freighter is not economical. Compression is required. So, I make nine freighter trips between Jita and my build station, and spend a few days building them. Then I make a freighter trip to my jump-out point, and from there a single jump freighter trip up to Goon space to a refining station. Once there, I refine the railguns, achieving 100% yield, as I've invested in the extra training and implants required to do so in the subpar facilities found in null-sec. Unfortunately, this isn't Empire and you don't get 50 build slots and perfect refines in the same station, so I either have to make nine freighter trips again between my refinery and build station or make do with the two build slots the station has. In either case, I'm likely to have to make four more freighter trips to move the finished battleships from build station to sale hub.

So, let's recap. I can either make four high-sec freighter trips and nine jump freighter trips to import those Maelstroms, or I can make make nine high-sec freighter trips, one jump freighter trip, and then depending on my choices, make anywhere from four to 13 freighter trips and spend four to eight days building, all told. And now you know why almost no major industry takes place in null-sec. The extra time and effort required to build the same number of ships is well worth simply spending 100 million ISK worth of jump fuel to get them now.

So confused on whats going on here. What does competing with Jita have anything to do with this.

Anyways off the top of my head for buffing without nerfing is:

Increase station research/production slots to unlimited or 10-20x current
Decrease material multiplier in 0.0
Increase yield rates on ore found in 0.0, especially low ends
Add some active way to get different types of moon goo and research mats, outside of your region.

Though there are a few "nerfs" I wouldn't mind seeing to High.

Cutting production lines by 33-50%
Seperating production lines based off of type, and increasing operation cost accordingly
Ice being finite
Reduce belt counts, but increase grav spawn rates.

as a business major and an outsider looking in the whole thing makes no LOGICAL sense.

New to the game so I wont pretend to have a bit of an understanding of the culture war between null high and low sec, but reading through the first few pages of arguments makes me chuckle a bit. I do realize this is a video game, but games mimic life and life lessons since that is what designers pull from when creating them. Where in the world is efficient industry run on the front lines of any conflict? Highsec is the equivalent of an industrialized nation / arms dealer pumping cheap weapons into a war zone and laughing all the way to the bank with the blood money.

as an engineering undergrad i find the lack of fuel consumption by 99% of eve's ships puzzling so lets just assume that realism isn't necessarily the primary goal here.

is this going to make the game more boring is the question that should be asked.

depends. are null and low supposed to be like comfortable hobbit holes with all the amenities of high sec or more akin to grim, barely controlled outposts where warlords duke it out for precious gems and maintain supply chains out of necessity?

If nullsec gets industry on par with highsec, what reason will there be for trade between nullsec and highsec?

Why should a new player be able to compete in industrial enterprise with players who have invested ISK, time and effort into building well-oiled industrial empires? This is like saying a new miner in a Retriever should be able to compete with a seasoned bot-aspirant with 100+ accounts and Orca boosts - he shouldn't.

no one is forced to manufacture anything, since there is a fully functioning market.

I can understand that it's difficult living in null without facilities close by but should it really be easy?

Though I'm sure the low-sec, gate-camping lobby would love to see dozens of freighters loaded with expensive goods passing by daily, the suggestion doesn't alter the reality that some of these ideas aren't just game-altering - they're potentially game-breaking. But debating this particular point is kinda silly, as CCP will never force all of high sec into low to manufacture goods. High sec pays their salaries and I'm sure they're keenly aware of the value those players represent.

YK

Looking at Jita I even see plenty of T1 crap that has 30-50% profit over its mineral cost based not on the lowest seller price but the highest buyer price. If you can simply sell those goods without having to play penny wars you can make a profit as an newbie industrialist.

No amount of incentivization will prod risk-averse players to suddenly become risk-takers

Are you saying those older players didn't earn their isk like everyone else? Did CCP put all that isk in their wallets magically because they were older players?
So rich hardworking players who spent all that time and effort to be rich don't deserve their isk and that CCP should transfer their wealth to the lower classes?
Sounds like "Space Socialism" to me.

Oh, I absolutely agree, I'd hate to see high sec die like starter zones die in other mmos. I'm just saying that making everything better in null will end up badly for high (and low/WH caught in between the struggle). Imo, nerfing one part of the game across the board or making progress linear is not necessarily a solution to the problems. Perhaps the "wild west" concept was a bit silly, given that it's usually related in our minds to western genre - what I was thinking of is more the borderlands of civilization, where accepted rules are thrown to the wind as society struggles to create fortune for itself. The "wild west" in this example means lack of government (empires), where people are left to organize themselves as they see fit. Some will steal, others will organize militias, the third will create societies of their own.

To get back to the game's null, imo one of the key problems of null nowadays is how sov functions and what happens if a small group comes in to have a shot at risk/reward. Have you lately seen a small alliance park themselves into a random system and try to claim it? All hell breaks lose, until the new guy is either forced to bend over to one of the larger "protectors" or to get the hell out. So how is a small industrialist supposed to compete if high sec is made worthless compared to null? In my opinion, you first need to allow the small guy to survive in null, then you can talk about moving things there.

I suspect in a construct this complex the answer involves multiple variables, but is there any hard data on player types?
Should we be trying to balance the game, the players, or both?
Just curious.

YK

Lazy? What does any of this have to do with being lazy? I'm trying to make isk not play with logistics all day.

"or do you want it fixed so that they are never ending?" Never wrote it. Why do you think I'm working all over the map now?

"if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now..." Dude, some regions are huge. In excess of 30-40 jumps across. I stash identical sets of gear in different areas and travel by shuttle. I'm not fueling/maintaining 4 POS's. Nor should I have to.

But hey, you're right, when I'm not busy engaged in the 2 hrs required to take down/put up my POS 4 times a day and when I'm not busy freightering my goods all across New Eden, I'm sure my profits will skyrocket due to all the extra work.

I look forward to all the riches promised from this obvious buff to industry.

YK

Profit margin? Heck even in RL a small entity can easily make the same or better profit margins than a larger one due to the "small and agile and efficient" factors. Yet the large entity will field huge numbers and in the end the small entity will easily earn their Honda for their CEO, while the large entity with same margins will earn their Ferraris collection for their CEO.

Yet everyone cheers that the game is growing year after year. So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?