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Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 17:50:00 -
[1]
Would the continuous FTL travelling in EVE have any effect on the actual age a person has when compared to hypothetical people in EVE who would remain...say in planets or starbases?
Should the actual amount of FTL travelling be subtracted from a person's "constant" age in order to determine his true or "relative" age?
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 17:53:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Would the continuous FTL travelling in EVE have any effect on the actual age a person has when compared to hypothetical people in EVE who would remain...say in planets or starbases?
Should the actual amount of FTL travelling be subtracted from a person's "constant" age in order to determine his true or "relative" age?
FTL travel in EVE, as in all games/TV shows/movies that abide by the laws of physics, does not involve time dilation.
FTL travel involves some mechanism (usually some sort of Technobabble Engine) that allows the ship to move locally slower than light, but globally faster than light. The Alcubierre Drive is a real life version of one of these--it expands space behind the ship, and contracts it in front, letting a stationary ship (no time dilation) ride a wave of space, possibly going faster than light. However, in real life, the massive energy required (think supernova-class energy amounts) makes this impractical.
EVE uses a quantum tunneling drive (see backstory). But it has the same effect. If a particle tunnels, it doesn't age any more than it would otherwise.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2005.08.01 17:54:00 -
[3]
Don't know about you, but I'm on my fifth vat-grown clone.  What difference do relativistic effects make?
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.08.01 17:56:00 -
[4]
To say they would age differently would be imposing Einsteinian rules on the Eve universe. FTL, or faster-than-light travel does theoretically cause a host of strange effects, including the divergiance of time between the traveler and the rest of the universe.
However...
Eve's technology may have nothing to do with relativity. In fact, if warping creates a semi-physical tunnel through two points in space and you're travelling down the tunnel at your ships actual top speed (but moving through the non-warped space at multiple AU's), you remain in sync with the universe around you. Same with jumpgates. If jumpgates only open a portal you go through, FTL has no bearing on the effects.
There is a great book on the subject of wormholes and their effect on civilization and space flight in general. Peter F. Hamilton's "Pandora's Star". Nice twist on the Dyson Sphere too. Check it out.
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 18:36:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 01/08/2005 18:36:54
Additionally with the max sublight speeds currently in game (~10km/sec with crazy skills/implants/TomB's modified overdrives, etc.) your ship's clock would be running at 1.0000000005445 times "normal" - let me be the first to say "oh noes".
One thing though - with all the uber triple MWD + 1 oversized "look ma, no hands!" setups whose max speeds topped out at what, 150,000km/s? Well - there time travels 1.1547005383792515 faster. I think I'll ask CCP for 15% more skill points - just apply them towards cruiser 5 for me please! (if you could go any faster and are curious about some of the simple math for general relativity look at this.)
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 18:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 01/08/2005 18:48:09
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 01/08/2005 18:36:54
Additionally with the max sublight speeds currently in game (~10km/sec with crazy skills/implants/TomB's modified overdrives, etc.) your ship's clock would be running at 1.0000000005445 times "normal" - let me be the first to say "oh noes".
One thing though - with all the uber triple MWD + 1 oversized "look ma, no hands!" setups whose max speeds topped out at what, 150,000km/s? Well - there time travels 1.1547005383792515 faster. I think I'll ask CCP for 15% more skill points - just apply them towards cruiser 5 for me please! (if you could go any faster and are curious about some of the simple math for general relativity look at this.)
(PS: we wouldn't age any faster - nor gain any skills faster - in fact everything would occur more slowly to us - at .5c as stated above the rest of the world would be travelling "slower" and light approaching your ship would be "flattened" and red shifted as you went away or blueshifted as you got closer - its best not to think about general relativity in a game, but I will take any attempt to get more skill points  )
Look, mommy, I can do Lorentz transformations! 
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 18:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Look, mommy, I can do Lorentz transformations!
AND I can be goofing off the forums and STILL look like I'm working! mwahahahahah
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:16:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Alexander Karatis on 01/08/2005 20:17:01
Well, the way my very poor physics knowledge understands this is, is that:
A. We have warp drives that create a bubble of "emptyness" around our ship that has negative friction and that means that even if we attached a lame-ass piston engine-driven propeller at the end of our ship, we could eventually achieve FTL speed.
B. We have jump-gates or jump drives that home in to the gravitional particulars that exist between two large objects in space and they create a wormhole, warping space and connecting our present position to the other end of the wormhole. Graphically, this is protrayed as hapenning almost-instantly in EVE, but they way I understand it is that we are flowing through a similar antifriction bubble, and actually travelling at speeds many time the speed of light.
Does the above summary approach what is supposed to be hapenning?
Now, regarding your comments about general relativity, does the "fact" that we have achieved FTL speeds in EVE negate the validity of that theory? Or is time-dilation something that's already been theoretically dismissed as an impossibility?
I don't want to go overbaord here, but aren't blackholes, wormholes etc., a tearing of space-time rather than space? (Which is altogether different than FTL-induced time-dilation but still another thing having to do with time).
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Edited by: Alexander Karatis on 01/08/2005 20:17:01
Well, the way my very poor physics knowledge understands this is, is that:
A. We have warp drives that create a bubble of "emptyness" around our ship that has negative friction and that means that even if we attached a lame-ass piston engine-driven propeller at the end of our ship, we could eventually achieve FTL speed.
B. We have jump-gates or jump drives that home in to the gravitional particulars that exist between two large objects in space and they create a wormhole, warping space and connecting our present position to the other end of the wormhole. Graphically, this is protrayed as hapenning almost-instantly in EVE, but they way I understand it is that we are flowing through a similar antifriction bubble, and actually travelling at speeds many time the speed of light.
Does the above summary approach what is supposed to be hapenning?
Now, regarding your comments about general relativity, does the "fact" that we have achieved FTL speeds in EVE negate the validity of that theory? Or is time-dilation something that's already been theoretically dismissed as an impossibility?
I don't want to go overbaord here, but aren't blackholes, wormholes etc., a tearing of space-time rather than space? (Which is altogether different than FTL-induced time-dilation but still another thing having to do with time).
No, no, relativity is one of the best proved theories in history. Its up there with quantum chromodynamics as one of the most accurate theories ever to be discovered.
Time Dilation, Lorentz Contraction, and all its other predictions have been proven to the 10th decimal place.
The equations of a black hole break down at the singularity (by definition, a singularity is a point where the equations break down!) and thus give meaningless answers. One might say spacetime is "ripped".
Wormhole are not rips, only tunnels, in spacetime, and certain might exist.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Baldour Ngarr on 01/08/2005 20:24:43
Short answer:
It's a game. 
Long(ish) answer: the FTL travel in EVE is achieved by using methods which circumvent relativity, rather than actually abolishing it. Eg. warping space so that the ship is only moving slowly, but the space in which it is moving, is moving at an enormous speed; or jumping into some non-einsteinian space, possibly by conversion to tachyons, thereby ignoring the relativistic effects altogether.
Whether this is possible in the real world is unknown, but extremely unlikely, since nobody's out there doing it. Either way, if FTL travel is possible, then relativistic effects will not apply to it, since relativity dictates that you *can't* go FTL. Any method of doing so must involve leaving Einsteinian space, in some way shape or form; or discovering that space isn't actually Einsteinian after all.
_______
I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
JaiMaster
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:23:00 -
[11]
Edited by: JaiMaster on 01/08/2005 20:25:07
Time dilation has been proven? Right...  1+1 might = 2 to the 10th decimal place, but until someone goes close to the speed of light or skirts the event horizon of a black hole, its hardly proven. You cant prove a theory with more theory 
-------
Skill points. ISK. Ships, rare equipment. Its all just a means to an end...
Your end.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:25:33
Originally by: JaiMaster
Time dilation has been proven? Right...
Yeah, if they didn't correct for it, GPS would break down.
They tested it the first time they sent probes into space with atomic clocks on board.
If time dilation wasn't correct, our entire satellite communications system would break down within days.
Welcome to the mid 20th century, folks! I hope you like it here!
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:25:00 -
[13]
Can someone give a link to a guide FTL and Time for idiots, please? I really dont understand why ftl would have any effect on time. The only problem i see with FTL is:
-Sight. The things you see, if you see, might be really messed up, somewhat. Like aprouching a planet, and seeing it rotate faster.. or slower :\
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
Can someone give a link to a guide FTL and Time for idiots, please? I really dont understand why ftl would have any effect on time. The only problem i see with FTL is:
-Sight. The things you see, if you see, might be really messed up, somewhat. Like aprouching a planet, and seeing it rotate faster.. or slower :\
Read up on special relativity and learn why FTL travel is locally impossible. You cannot exceed the speed of light locally.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:29:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:30:11
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:29:39
Originally by: JaiMaster
Edited by: JaiMaster on 01/08/2005 20:25:07
Time dilation has been proven? Right... 1+1 might = 2 to the 10th decimal place, but until someone goes close to the speed of light or skirts the event horizon of a black hole, its hardly proven. You cant prove a theory with more theory
This is the classic anti-science argument.
Just because an apple falls here, doesn't mean it does so on Jupiter. In fact, on jupiter, apples might fall up. Until we test it WE CAN'T SAY ANYTHING!
BTW some information for you: http://www2.corepower.com:8080/~relfaq/experiments.html#XII
Also, this is special, not general relativity, which has nothing to do with gravity at all. You can't say that for no apparent reason space near black holes is "different."
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
JaiMaster
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:33:00 -
[16]
Hardly anti-science. Just an argument from someone who isnt buying the theory that travelling faster than light somehow changes the "speed of time".
Add that to the fact that scientists have "proven" many (since trashed) stupid theories in the past (remembering that "faster than sound" travel was, of course, scientifically impossible, back in the day).
-------
Skill points. ISK. Ships, rare equipment. Its all just a means to an end...
Your end.
|
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:34:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:34:40
Originally by: JaiMaster
Hardly anti-science. Just an argument from someone who isnt buying the theory that travelling faster than light somehow changes the "speed of time".
Add that to the fact that scientists have "proven" many (since trashed) stupid theories in the past (remembering that "faster than sound" travel was, of course, scientifically impossible, back in the day).
We don't know anything about travelling faster than light--technically time would actually go backwards, but thats extending the theory beyond its limits. Time dilation is a slower-than-light effect.
You CANNOT go faster than light, because you would need an infinite amount of energy. It simply is that way. Now of course there are ways around the speed limit such as the Alcubierre drive.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
The only problem i see with FTL is:
-Sight. The things you see, if you see, might be really messed up, somewhat. Like aprouching a planet, and seeing it rotate faster.. or slower :\
It'd be a lot more confusing than that. Say you're flying in the vicinity of a planet: by the time the light from that planet reaches you, telling you where the planet is - you already flew past it.
One can only assume that, during a warp flight, your navigational computers are providing you with a simulated view of where things are, based on system knowledge gained other than by direct sight. You know where the planets are from orbital data, f.ex., even though you see them being somewhere else.
_______
I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mina Chaos
Originally by: JaiMaster
Edited by: JaiMaster on 01/08/2005 20:25:07
... You cant prove a theory with more theory
That's called philosophy or religion.
"Proving a theory with more theory" = String theory 
Of course there's still ways to prove that... so it isn't truly philosophy yet.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Dominik
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
A. We have warp drives that create a bubble of "emptyness" around our ship that has negative friction and that means that even if we attached a lame-ass piston engine-driven propeller at the end of our ship, we could eventually achieve FTL speed.
I LIKE my Minmatar ships thank you very much!
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Mina Chaos
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:37:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mina Chaos on 01/08/2005 20:39:46
Originally by: JaiMaster
Edited by: JaiMaster on 01/08/2005 20:25:07
... You cant prove a theory with more theory
That's called philosophy or religion.
As with your second post, correct, there different times in history when people "think" something cannot be done, but later, because of persistance or "thinking outside the box" a new tier of technology is developed to overcome an absolute. Lesson to be learned is to always question and keep an open mind to new ideas.
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Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:48:00 -
[22]
BTW, from Wikipedia's Alcubierre article, I noted the part pasted here...Does this apply to the Warp Technologies we have in EVE? (No G acceleration)
In other words, a ship using the warp to accelerate and decelerate is always in free fall, and the crew would experience no accelerational g-forces. Enormous tidal forces would be present near the edges of the flat-space volume because of the large space curvature there, but by suitable specification of the metric, these would be made very small within the volume occupied by the ship.
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:49:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:49:57
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
BTW, from Wikipedia's Alcubierre article, I noted the part pasted here...Does this apply to the Warp Technologies we have in EVE? (No G acceleration)
In other words, a ship using the warp to accelerate and decelerate is always in free fall, and the crew would experience no accelerational g-forces. Enormous tidal forces would be present near the edges of the flat-space volume because of the large space curvature there, but by suitable specification of the metric, these would be made very small within the volume occupied by the ship.
No, EVE using a frictionless quantum tunneling technology of some sort--its all in the backstory articles (there's a Technology article about it I think). Alcubierre drive I believe is used in Star Trek (according to the technical manual--it doesn't mention the name, but I believe the process is similar).
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
JaiMaster
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:50:00 -
[24]
The theory is based on relating light to time. The idea that you would go "backwards" in time just because you went faster than lightwaves seems silly (not claiming special knowlege - my Physics schooling ended with year 12 highschool). As per faster-than-sound travel, youd be able to "see into the past" and watch yourself leave (in theory), just as you can "hear the past" and hear yourself leave.
Now, claiming that local faster-than-light travel is flatly impossible is typical of wall-building science thats been well established since people started thinking about more than how to build a better hunting tool. It will be proven as true until some idiot wonders if its really not. The world was flat. The earth was the centre of all. Travelling faster than a fast horse could go was impossible. Flying machines? What are you smoking.
Nope, im betting theres a way just waiting to be found.
-------
Skill points. ISK. Ships, rare equipment. Its all just a means to an end...
Your end.
|
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:51:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 01/08/2005 20:55:24
Originally by: Dark Shikari
You CANNOT go faster than light, because you would need an infinite amount of energy.
You cannot accelerate to the speed of light - MAJOR distinction, almost as big as me saying general instead of special (I guess thats because I'm special).
Then again, since acceleration is continuous its a rather moot point. A massless object can be at the speed of light though - actually it has to be at the speed of light. Which again is a rather moot point for this thread. Actually what is this thread about again anyways? And shouldn't it be in the off topic forum at this point?
Does relativity work beyond c? Probably not. But p=mv and KE=mv^2 works so long as you're dealing with nice tidy little things on earth like dropping stuff from towers and car wrecks and everything else that occurs in everyday life. Newton was kind of right, and Einstein is probably "kinda right" - fact of the matter is that hypothesis can only be formed for observable and testable phenomenon - and relativity can be observed and tested, just look at Mercury.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 20:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: JaiMaster
The theory is based on relating light to time. The idea that you would go "backwards" in time just because you went faster than lightwaves seems silly (not claiming special knowlege - my Physics schooling ended with year 12 highschool). As per faster-than-sound travel, youd be able to "see into the past" and watch yourself leave (in theory), just as you can "hear the past" and hear yourself leave.
Now, claiming that local faster-than-light travel is flatly impossible is typical of wall-building science thats been well established since people started thinking about more than how to build a better hunting tool. It will be proven as true until some idiot wonders if its really not. The world was flat. The earth was the centre of all. Travelling faster than a fast horse could go was impossible. Flying machines? What are you smoking.
Nope, im betting theres a way just waiting to be found.
You cannot break the laws of physics, only find loopholes in them
But as I said, the "backwards in time" prediction is a literal interpretation of the equation results, but as by the same equation traveling faster than light is only possible by a particle with imaginary mass, I wouldn't put much trust in it.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 21:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:49:57
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
BTW, from Wikipedia's Alcubierre article, I noted the part pasted here...Does this apply to the Warp Technologies we have in EVE? (No G acceleration)
In other words, a ship using the warp to accelerate and decelerate is always in free fall, and the crew would experience no accelerational g-forces. Enormous tidal forces would be present near the edges of the flat-space volume because of the large space curvature there, but by suitable specification of the metric, these would be made very small within the volume occupied by the ship.
No, EVE using a frictionless quantum tunneling technology of some sort--its all in the backstory articles (there's a Technology article about it I think). Alcubierre drive I believe is used in Star Trek (according to the technical manual--it doesn't mention the name, but I believe the process is similar).
So the technology in EVE means that the crew would feel the acceleration effects when engaging their warp-drive? (I'm asking because these are stuff that I'd like to know for a series of stories I'm doing).
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 21:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
So the technology in EVE means that the crew would feel the acceleration effects when engaging their warp-drive? (I'm asking because these are stuff that I'd like to know for a series of stories I'm doing).
Inertial dampers 4TW.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Ice Foxy
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Posted - 2005.08.01 21:09:00 -
[29]
FTL travel isnt possiible since matter cannot move faster than the speed of light. A particle with no matter travels at the speed of light, and it is imagined that the graviton is massless.
But anyway though it is not possible to travel faster than the speed of light if one could "bend" the space-time continum the distance between two points could be reduced. The easiest way to do this would be to create a singularity, though i imagine this would be rather difficult requring a large ammount of energy, or mass etc.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 21:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 20:49:57
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
BTW, from Wikipedia's Alcubierre article, I noted the part pasted here...Does this apply to the Warp Technologies we have in EVE? (No G acceleration)
In other words, a ship using the warp to accelerate and decelerate is always in free fall, and the crew would experience no accelerational g-forces. Enormous tidal forces would be present near the edges of the flat-space volume because of the large space curvature there, but by suitable specification of the metric, these would be made very small within the volume occupied by the ship.
No, EVE using a frictionless quantum tunneling technology of some sort--its all in the backstory articles (there's a Technology article about it I think). Alcubierre drive I believe is used in Star Trek (according to the technical manual--it doesn't mention the name, but I believe the process is similar).
So the technology in EVE means that the crew would feel the acceleration effects when engaging their warp-drive? (I'm asking because these are stuff that I'd like to know for a series of stories I'm doing).
Probably not, it seems to be an inertialess drive to me (or else the ship would smash itself to pieces). Or at least inertial dampers of some sort.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:00:00 -
[31]
With the speeds achieved by warp drives in EVE, is there any approximation of the amounts of Gs that would be generated by engaging the warp drive? (Forces which I assume would be constant).
I'm trying to figure out whether a human body would survive it, supposing that some other method was conceived to maintain the ship's integrity.
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:02:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 01/08/2005 22:02:34
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
With the speeds achieved by warp drives in EVE, is there any approximation of the amounts of Gs that would be generated by engaging the warp drive? (Forces which I assume would be constant).
I'm trying to figure out whether a human body would survive it, supposing that some other method was conceived to maintain the ship's integrity.
Engaging a warp drive at some points has over 6 AU/s^2 of acceleration--about 100 billion Gs, if it was not an intertialess drive.
Of course its quite obvious that it is an inertialess drive (no Gs). The backstory talks about the pod being immersed in fluid to keep safe from G forces--which means that there are no inertia dampers, thus normal flight has standard G forces, and FLT travel has none.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:06:00 -
[33]
Many thx for you help thusfar Dark Shikari-it's much appreciated!
So, in normal flight then what range of Gs (according to speed) are we talking about?
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:06:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
I'm trying to figure out whether a human body would survive it,
No. Very very no. F=ma - if newtonian physics worked from 0 to 3AU/sec the amount of g-forces would be ludicrous. Like say 3x10^9 times the force of gravity.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Many thx for you help thusfar Dark Shikari-it's much appreciated!
So, in normal flight then what range of Gs (according to speed) are we talking about?
Crazy amounts - my taranis can pull 100Gs more or less.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:09:00 -
[36]
All I know is the shiny blue button with a big A on it gets me places.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:10:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Many thx for you help thusfar Dark Shikari-it's much appreciated!
So, in normal flight then what range of Gs (according to speed) are we talking about?
A frigate with an AB fitted can do what ... maybe 1km/s? And say it takes five seconds to reach that. That's an acceleration of, very roughly, 20 times G. 20G sustained over 5 seconds is quite likely to kill you, and will definitely cause severe and unwanteed effects; hence the pod and stuff, to reduce the shock.
MWDs, if they operate in an inertial fashion, will very definitely kill you. But the micro *warp* nature suggests that they don't.
_______
I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
Alexander Karatis
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:22:00 -
[38]
Well, 20Gs can be experienced instantaneously in F1 or other high-performance vehicles when they crash. And it certainly doesn't kill the occupant. 9-10 gs can be experienced by fighter pilots for quite a few seconds without serious injury (worst thing I've heard is blood vessels popping)...
BTW, nowhere in the backstory could I find that the pod protects you from Gs.
Cadet Karatis (Mining & Transport) - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Well, 20Gs can be experienced instantaneously in F1 or other high-performance vehicles when they crash. And it certainly doesn't kill the occupant. 9-10 gs can be experienced by fighter pilots for quite a few seconds without serious injury (worst thing I've heard is blood vessels popping)...
BTW, nowhere in the backstory could I find that the pod protects you from Gs.
Its not in the backstory. I believe it was in the tutorial or somewhere that EVE explains to you what it means to be a pod pilot.
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Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Haitchi Allamut
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:25:00 -
[40]
lol, i accually though that you mean a "4 the lose" traveling according to the new stargates etc, a good reminder not to read forums while drunk...
Cheers.
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Well, 20Gs can be experienced instantaneously in F1 or other high-performance vehicles when they crash. And it certainly doesn't kill the occupant. 9-10 gs can be experienced by fighter pilots for quite a few seconds without serious injury (worst thing I've heard is blood vessels popping)...
BTW, nowhere in the backstory could I find that the pod protects you from Gs.
Instantaneous g-forces don't really count towards crushing bones and so forth, and fighter pilots blackout with sustained 9g turns - in fact many airframes can withstand more but the flight control system governers turns to 9g max so the pilot doesn't kill himself.
But I think pretty much everything with a MWD drive would kill you in game, and frigates with afterburners would as well. Just invent some technobabble - thats what the pros do. :)
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Well, 20Gs can be experienced instantaneously in F1 or other high-performance vehicles when they crash. And it certainly doesn't kill the occupant.
Very true - and considerably higher, to boot. People have decelerated from 200mph to nil in one tenth of a second, and survived. But 20Gs is far higher than would be sustainable without causing physical injury, and it would be quite likely to kill weaker humans. F1 drivers and fighter pilots tend to not have weak hearts - you could probably argue that space pilots won't have, either, come to that.
20Gs is a damn sight more than I'd want to undergo for five seconds, I know that much
_______
I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
F'nog
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Posted - 2005.08.01 22:51:00 -
[43]
A plane crash results in a near-instanteous 80+G stop. This is very survivable, though you'll likely be a mess afterwards. Some people have even walked away from it perfectly fine though.
It's only when it's sustained that things go horribly wrong, hence why fighter pilots can only pull 9G turns for short periods of time.
Originally by: Morela
"hey! I'm gonna go attack the north! Afk till tuesday!"
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Jacxx
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Posted - 2005.08.01 23:13:00 -
[44]
The problem with having any form of navigation at above light speeds is that how fast electricity can move through the tracking computers becomes a problem. The computer has to know that it must begin compensating for an obstacle before it even gets there, possibly before it can even find out that the obstacle is in its path.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.01 23:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jacxx
The problem with having any form of navigation at above light speeds is that how fast electricity can move through the tracking computers becomes a problem. The computer has to know that it must begin compensating for an obstacle before it even gets there, possibly before it can even find out that the obstacle is in its path.
Note yet again that these ships are not traveling above light speed locally (impossible), but globally, which solves these problems.
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Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Artificer
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Posted - 2005.08.02 00:35:00 -
[46]
Time dilation due to traveling at any speed has been proven. traveling around the world in different directions causes both gains and loss in time depending on which dirrection you are going as you have to take into account the rotation of the planet also. just look up 'relativity and time' in google for more detail
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Matrix Aran
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Posted - 2005.08.02 00:49:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Alexander Karatis
Would the continuous FTL travelling in EVE have any effect on the actual age a person has when compared to hypothetical people in EVE who would remain...say in planets or starbases?
Should the actual amount of FTL travelling be subtracted from a person's "constant" age in order to determine his true or "relative" age?
FTL travel in EVE, as in all games/TV shows/movies that abide by the laws of physics, does not involve time dilation.
FTL travel involves some mechanism (usually some sort of Technobabble Engine) that allows the ship to move locally slower than light, but globally faster than light. The Alcubierre Drive is a real life version of one of these--it expands space behind the ship, and contracts it in front, letting a stationary ship (no time dilation) ride a wave of space, possibly going faster than light. However, in real life, the massive energy required (think supernova-class energy amounts) makes this impractical.
EVE uses a quantum tunneling drive (see backstory). But it has the same effect. If a particle tunnels, it doesn't age any more than it would otherwise.
Can you provide the link to that article on quantum tunneling? I must be blind I cant find it.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.08.02 00:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Artificer
Time dilation due to traveling at any speed has been proven. traveling around the world in different directions causes both gains and loss in time depending on which dirrection you are going as you have to take into account the rotation of the planet also. just look up 'relativity and time' in google for more detail
At any speed less than that of light in a vacuum. If you allow the possibility of circumventing the speed-of-light limit - which is absolute and unbreakable, while relativity holds - then you no longer have to consider the relativistic effects of travel.
So in answer to the original question, time-dilation has no bearing whatsoever on FTL travel.
_______
I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.08.02 00:52:00 -
[49]
omg I'm not the only TP playing Eve?!?
To the guy saying time dilation is merely theoretical: Not really, there are many real life experiments that can be done to illustrate it. The one where they loaded the synchronised atomic clocks on planes for example. Or the more famous one with the muon cascades caused in the atmosphere by cosmic rays (they should perish before they reach the ground, but don't....coz of time dilation due to their relativistic speed).
Also I worked out how many gees my Claw pulls :) Accelerating from 0 to 5km/sec in about 10 seconds say... Gives an average accel of 500ms-2 (more on initial mwd burst). So say 1000 ms-2 for first second. Divide by 10 (meh) and voila 100 gees \o/ The pilot may be in a pod, but any passengers are pasted all over the walls :)
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Andrue
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Posted - 2005.08.02 11:04:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte
Can someone give a link to a guide FTL and Time for idiots, please? I really dont understand why ftl would have any effect on time. The only problem i see with FTL is:
-Sight. The things you see, if you see, might be really messed up, somewhat. Like aprouching a planet, and seeing it rotate faster.. or slower :\
Linkage
But the biggest stumbling block last I heard is causality. Put simply any transportation method that lets you get from point 'A' to point 'B' faster than light makes it possible for an effect to occur before the cause (ie;you might observe someone being shot dead before the gun has actually been fired). This is a violation of causality.
Scary linkage
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(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
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