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Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.03 10:32:00 - [1] Edited by: Vaugue on 03/08/2005 10:36:15 Ok this is seriously beginning to annoy me... i may be only 6 days old in the game, but it doesnt matter. The moment i stepped into this game i wanted to be a missile guy so i have trained accordingly. In my fitting hangar of the station when i view my light missiles it says the following. (I'm Currently in a merlin With 2 standard Limos upgraded launchers and 2 150mm carbide railguns using irridium) Max Flight Time : 6 secs Velocity : 4,500 m/sec Which is reflecting my 2 skills : Missile Bombardment lvl 2 (10% flight time per lvl) Missile Projection lvl 2 (10% velocity per lvl) Which means my max range SHOULD be 27,000m or 27km So I'm doing the lvl 1 mission Avenage a Fallen Commrad. I start to clear all the rats. I have 3 rats targeted .. 24km 25km and 26km respectivley. Knowing my missiles go 27km i target the guy at 26km first .. (they are also chasing me as well) Neither of my 2 missiles connect.. So I'm like ok thats wierd.. I target the guy chasing at 25km again both of my missiles miss ! so now im getting a bit frustrated. i target the guy at 24km, you guessed it AGAIN both my missiles fall short of the target ! So what the heck is going on here!?!? So i clear all the rats and chug over to the habitat and i said to myself hey this thing is stationary and doesnt shoot back lets do some range practise. So knowing this sucker can take some hits and is not moving i tested at the range's from 30km down to 20km 1 kilometer at a time. EVERY single missile from 27km to 23km fell short of my STATIONARY target, So what gives? Why have i spent the last 5 days training missiles? According to my skills and stats they should reach from 27km. Everything else in the game is soo precise. I asked in the help channel and everyone said stuff ranging from : a) missiles take time to reach thier max speed and thus fall short of max range in stats. b) you projectory is poor and you are losing range from the missile arcing. c) other misc reasons. So why doesnt it say this anywhere in the game. If these points are indeed true they to be reflected in the game.. Showing one stat (ie 27km range) and finding out it's not correct isnt cool. Why am i training these if they aren't doing anything. It doesnt matter if i been here 5 days or 5 months or if the skill is 1hr or 1 year to train.. is the skill not working? OR why isn't projection and acceleration shown in the stats? Being only in the game for 5 days im starting to see how much better turrets are.. thier statistics and such are correct. I only have lvl 1 of all hybrid gunnery rank 1 and 2 skills with hybrid turrets and sharpshooting at lvl 2, while ALL of my missile skills including some rank 3 and 4 are minimum lvl 2 with 2 at lvl 3 and the turrets are soo much better already.
Belshamarothx	Posted - 2005.08.03 10:41:00 - [2] Try unfitting and repackaging your launchers to ensure the stats have updated correctly, Then refit them and check stats on ship info/modules/missile to make sure the values are correct. See if you then get correct range. I don't know for sure if this is your problem or if solutions will work, but I have heard it may help. If it doesn't help then maybe someone like Electrofreak may know the answer.
Magnus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.08.03 11:17:00 - [3] Hi again Vaugue Some helper guy told me earlier that you could get the approximated missile distande by comouting speed * time of flight, but he also told me that the missile needs some time to accelerate up to maximum speed. It also looks like missiles always fire straight ahead from the ship, and if you orbit they have to turn around towards the target. This would explain why missiles dont go as far as the stats tell them. For example, on my Worm, I have a missile range of 41km, but I rarely hit targets 38km or more away.
Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.03 12:24:00 - [4] Edited by: Vaugue on 03/08/2005 12:39:52 Originally by: Magnus Thermopyle Hi again Vaugue Some helper guy told me earlier that you could get the approximated missile distande by comouting speed * time of flight, but he also told me that the missile needs some time to accelerate up to maximum speed. It also looks like missiles always fire straight ahead from the ship, and if you orbit they have to turn around towards the target. This would explain why missiles dont go as far as the stats tell them. For example, on my Worm, I have a missile range of 41km, but I rarely hit targets 38km or more away. Quite a difference in 3 km when you are engaged in long range combat.. 3 kilo's can be the difference to being in our out of your targets range. Considering every hybrid gun and other type of weapon acts exactly according to it's stats then the missile's should as well OR There should be a note or descrition saying this on the missile's stats or description. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen .. of course it's common sence it needs a few sec's to get up to max speed.. If this is the case and it's true then this status effect or ailment as i would call it should be shown somewhere.... Anybody with any other type of turret doesn't need to guess thier ranges, thier dmg is instant and calculatable exactly, so why should I from a fairness standing of a game, have to guess my optimal ranges? Have something like Example: Max Flight Time : 6 seconds note : The first second of flight is only 50% of max velocity. Max Velocity : 4,500 m/sec OR Max Flight Time :6 seconds Launch Velocity : 2,250 m/sec (max velocity x 0.5 or whatever it is) Max Velocity : 4,500 m/sec Or something along those lines.
ManOfHonor	Posted - 2005.08.03 12:39:00 - [5] it already says it- 'Max Velocity' not 'Missile Velocity From Launch Until Detonation' _____________________________ NPC Asteroid Belt Bases Honor Above Self Glory For Self Strenght Of Self
Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.03 12:43:00 - [6] Edited by: Vaugue on 03/08/2005 12:44:01 Originally by: ManOfHonor it already says it- 'Max Velocity' not 'Missile Velocity From Launch Until Detonation' Then i want to see a stat for it !!! If turrets can calculate thier range and distance to the exact meter, Then i should be able to do the same with missile's. All this space tech and im not aloud or don't know the velocity of my missile upon launch? I shouldn't have to play a guessing game if turret and other weapon users don't need to guess thiers.
ManOfHonor	Posted - 2005.08.03 12:45:00 - [7] turrets arnt nearly as exact as you think <- diehard projectile user screw lasers.... lasers are for girlymen _____________________________ NPC Asteroid Belt Bases Honor Above Self Glory For Self Strenght Of Self
Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.03 13:04:00 - [8] Edited by: Vaugue on 03/08/2005 13:08:13 Um according to this stickied guide turrets are 100% accurate at thier optimal range, variented only by tracking speed? Then down a bit further he has all sorts of formulas going to figure out his fall outs and such because the information is provided to him, but yet not all information is provided about a missile....... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=101858 Regardless i think I'm going to switch to turrets anyway... reading up it appears missiles are gimped bad because of this most recent expansion? It's all new to me but my guns do twice as good as missiles and i've barely trained em. my gunnery skill points 8,159 my missile skill points 33,473
Belshamarothx	Posted - 2005.08.03 13:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Vaugue Edited by: Vaugue on 03/08/2005 13:08:13 Um according to this stickied guide turrets are 100% accurate at thier optimal range, variented only by tracking speed? Then down a bit further he has all sorts of formulas going to figure out his fall outs and such because the information is provided to him, but yet not all information is provided about a missile....... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=101858 Regardless i think I'm going to switch to turrets anyway... reading up it appears missiles are gimped bad because of this most recent expansion? It's all new to me but my guns do twice as good as missiles and i've barely trained em. my gunnery skill points 8,159 my missile skill points 33,473 In all honesty mate, given that you are still new enough to make a choice, go with guns at this stage, it will give you more options. Even if you stick with hybrids you have the option of flying Gallente as well as Caldari. But if you like missiles, stick with them. As 1) they will get un-gimped eventually(tm) (despite the best efforts of the anti-missile crew evident here), 2) even as they are currently, they have their uses, strengths/weaknesses like everything else.
Loka	Posted - 2005.08.03 13:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Vaugue Then i want to see a stat for it !!! If turrets can calculate thier range and distance to the exact meter, Then i should be able to do the same with missile's. All this space tech and im not aloud or don't know the velocity of my missile upon launch? I shouldn't have to play a guessing game if turret and other weapon users don't need to guess thiers. Could you pls tell me how much dmg i will do with antimatter on a 425mm when shooting someone 51km away. Optimal is 36 and falloff is 28 km. Could you pls tell me excact the amount of dmg i will do? Right you cant. Turretuser have to guess about, would they hit the target or not (transversal velocity). Should i switch ammo, when shooting someone xx km in my falloff or will the dmg increase be unsignificant and the time for reloading my guns wasted? Sorry to tell you the truth mate, but Turretuser have to do this for ages. Welcome to the world of the humans using their brains for combat. Thx and bye. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
Belshamarothx	Posted - 2005.08.03 14:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Loka Originally by: Vaugue Then i want to see a stat for it !!! If turrets can calculate thier range and distance to the exact meter, Then i should be able to do the same with missile's. All this space tech and im not aloud or don't know the velocity of my missile upon launch? I shouldn't have to play a guessing game if turret and other weapon users don't need to guess thiers. Could you pls tell me how much dmg i will do with antimatter on a 425mm when shooting someone 51km away. Optimal is 36 and falloff is 28 km. Could you pls tell me excact the amount of dmg i will do? Right you cant. Turretuser have to guess about, would they hit the target or not (transversal velocity). Should i switch ammo, when shooting someone xx km in my falloff or will the dmg increase be unsignificant and the time for reloading my guns wasted? Sorry to tell you the truth mate, but Turretuser have to do this for ages. Welcome to the world of the humans using their brains for combat. Thx and bye. Thats are really uncharitable response to an apparently genuine new character question. Also he didn't ask how much damage he would do, just if he could hit at a specific distance, and you CAN calculate that. Assuming he is new, then he is completely unaware of the true nature of the patch and is just trying to learn. I suggest you should apologise to him, or do you really wish to discourage new players joining this game?
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.08.03 14:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Loka Originally by: Vaugue Then i want to see a stat for it !!! If turrets can calculate thier range and distance to the exact meter, Then i should be able to do the same with missile's. All this space tech and im not aloud or don't know the velocity of my missile upon launch? I shouldn't have to play a guessing game if turret and other weapon users don't need to guess thiers. Could you pls tell me how much dmg i will do with antimatter on a 425mm when shooting someone 51km away. Optimal is 36 and falloff is 28 km. Could you pls tell me excact the amount of dmg i will do? Right you cant. Turretuser have to guess about, would they hit the target or not (transversal velocity). Should i switch ammo, when shooting someone xx km in my falloff or will the dmg increase be unsignificant and the time for reloading my guns wasted? Sorry to tell you the truth mate, but Turretuser have to do this for ages. Welcome to the world of the humans using their brains for combat. Thx and bye. And that was from the world of can't read correctly and likes tangents...he was complaing about range calcs, not damage calcs... Turret users can check range with just a right click... "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.03 16:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Loka Originally by: Vaugue Then i want to see a stat for it !!! If turrets can calculate thier range and distance to the exact meter, Then i should be able to do the same with missile's. All this space tech and im not aloud or don't know the velocity of my missile upon launch? I shouldn't have to play a guessing game if turret and other weapon users don't need to guess thiers. Could you pls tell me how much dmg i will do with antimatter on a 425mm when shooting someone 51km away. Optimal is 36 and falloff is 28 km. Could you pls tell me excact the amount of dmg i will do? Right you cant. Turretuser have to guess about, would they hit the target or not (transversal velocity). Should i switch ammo, when shooting someone xx km in my falloff or will the dmg increase be unsignificant and the time for reloading my guns wasted? Sorry to tell you the truth mate, but Turretuser have to do this for ages. Welcome to the world of the humans using their brains for combat. Thx and bye. That wasant nice to a new guy. To answer the new guys question when missiles are fired they start at 0 km/h and they rapidly accelerate to top speed also for hitting range dont forget missiles have to turn to hit a target best way to picture it is to imagine a pice of string the same length as your missiles range turns can be made just add a turn partial loop to your string then you will see why you sometimes cant hit something. I wish i could add pictures to this it makes it so much harder that you cant. Turret userers operate differently they can see what ranges they hit as the ammo flys in a straight line at the same speed so its easy to calculate [ the random bit comes when it comes to actually hitting or doing damage. Millsiles however dont have an optimal range innn there stats they just have a flight time which basically means how long it can fly around and manouver till it fizzles out. Sadly combat isant easy and you will need to learn a few skills but keep with it it will get better. And sometime withing the next month or so im sure missiles will begine to get some buffs. Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Antic	Posted - 2005.08.03 16:56:00 - [14] another factor to weigh into this is wich direction your target is traveling in and at wich velocity. NPCs are most likely travling towards you (AI in this game isnt very bright) wich means their speed will cut the range needed for missiles to hit. (as missiles are delayed damage weapons this actualy matters in contrast to guns where it dosnt.). Now if the target is heading away from you and the missile in general then the missile has to chase him down wich will heavily burden its flight time. In PVP small ship combat this will be especialy evident.
Azuriel Talloth	Posted - 2005.08.03 16:58:00 - [15] Stick with turrets. And just be glad you realised it sooner rather than later, before investing a million points in missiles.
Bleakheart	Posted - 2005.08.03 17:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Loka Originally by: Vaugue Then i want to see a stat for it !!! If turrets can calculate thier range and distance to the exact meter, Then i should be able to do the same with missile's. All this space tech and im not aloud or don't know the velocity of my missile upon launch? I shouldn't have to play a guessing game if turret and other weapon users don't need to guess thiers. Could you pls tell me how much dmg i will do with antimatter on a 425mm when shooting someone 51km away. Optimal is 36 and falloff is 28 km. Could you pls tell me excact the amount of dmg i will do? Right you cant. Turretuser have to guess about, would they hit the target or not (transversal velocity). Should i switch ammo, when shooting someone xx km in my falloff or will the dmg increase be unsignificant and the time for reloading my guns wasted? Sorry to tell you the truth mate, but Turretuser have to do this for ages. Welcome to the world of the humans using their brains for combat. Thx and bye. Tell the truth, turreteers want you to think there's some kind of mysticism behind a gun's use in this game. Well, there's not. It's the same F-Smash and fly towards/away from target game regardless of what you're shooting. But if you do go with turrets and not missiles, remember this person's words, and please don't become a bloody **-pulling **er like them!
Professor McFly	Posted - 2005.08.03 17:49:00 - [17] Heh it's true. Any Caldari pilot will have used both missiles and turrets at some point, you're not fooling anyone with the whole "turrets require extreme player skill" thing.
marioman	Posted - 2005.08.03 18:38:00 - [18] Edited by: marioman on 03/08/2005 18:45:25 On a side note I would just like to point out that Ship velocity Bonus + Missile Projection doesnt work all too well. On my caracal with cruiser 5 and Missile Projection 4 my heavy missiles only have a top speed of 65xxm/s (not ingame atm to check exact figures). Now when I do the math, 3750 * 1.5 * 1.4 I get 7875m/s Even assuming those stats dont stack (which they should since all seperate skills in EVE Stack), I get 7125m/s. I have NO CLUE where 6500m/s comes from that shows in the missile info window, but i definately know they should be about 1300m/s faster than what im getting. The problem u are having with missiles not hitting in the range u should be getting might be a bug or something to do with this problem. I mean as it stands now I'm pretty peeved that I'm only getting a 57% increase in missile speed when i should be getting a 90% increase. EDIT: ok after running some figures i know what the problem is, it seems the caracal is only giving a 5% velocity per level bonus now: 3750 * 1.25 * 1.4 = 6562.5m/s, I dont remember seeing anything in the patchnotes about this nerf :(
Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.03 20:15:00 - [19] Yes, i wasn't refering to dmg and such. I know turret dmg is random.. but also very good when in optimal range. I understand it's common sence that when a missile is launched it's launched from a standstill (0m/sec) and accelerates very rapidly toward the target, and takes time (but very short time) to reach max velocity. What i am asking for (since turreteers can just show info for thier range (they dont even have to do math to figure it out) is at least give a launch velocity stat that i can see on the missile show info, so i can at least do the math to find my missiles max range with this launch factor involved. Some examples i already showed above of what i feel would be informative information on my show info. Another one i thought of maybe (since missiles are more complex than turrets) is : Time (in secs) to reach max velocity.
Aneskha	Posted - 2005.08.03 20:31:00 - [20] As some said before, the real missile range is slightly inferior to what it's supposed to be. The best you can do to have a fair approximation of the real range is to make a few tests.
Arowe Telak	Posted - 2005.08.03 21:36:00 - [21] Hmmm interesting. In my experience the "actual missle range" is about 1km shorter than your theoretical range with standard missles and your skills. Either you goofed somewhere in calculations or the game did in which case I don't know what to tell you. In response to previous posts: Missles do take a second or so to accelerate but for lights its not big enough to cut your range much. Missles are ejected out the back of ships and then ignite once clear of the ship. They orient immediatly in the direction of the target.
Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.04 11:04:00 - [22] Well like i said.. I'm using light missile's and it says 6 sec flight for 4,500m and i cant hit things at even 23-24 km... So scratch the minus 1km for optimal guessing cuz its more than that even with lights. Ialso just realized i posted this in ships and mods. My mistake im sorry i meant to post it in skills section. If someone could move it. would be much appreciated.. again sorry
Ally McBeal	Posted - 2005.08.04 19:41:00 - [23] Originally by: ManOfHonor turrets arnt nearly as exact as you think <- diehard projectile user screw lasers.... lasers are for girlymen But Dr. Evil uses sharks with frikkin laserbeams attached to their heads! ---- Ally
Cheim	Posted - 2005.08.04 21:12:00 - [24] Missiles needing to accelerate is just a theory. In the big thread about missile changes, TomB himself used max velocity * flight time when talking about the new ranges. If your missiles are routinely falling short, you might want to do a bug report and hope it is a technical issue that gets corrected. This thread has bug reporting details.
Vaugue	Posted - 2005.08.06 16:53:00 - [25] Ok i filled out a detailed bug report, and yes reading that thread you refered to says my should be doing the maximum 27km that the stats say. (6sec x 4,500m/s) I'm still liking missiles just for the looks and what not but im still confused how my turrets are out dmging my missiles !!! ALL of my turret skills are lvl 1 except sharpshooter and the gunnery skill itself at lvl 2. ALL of my missile skills are lvl 2 with launcher at lvl 3. I ALSO have a balsitic control unit in my low slot ! Yet my friend on his destroyer (caldari comorant) with only the bare minimum skills just to load and shoot his single missle is matching mine in damage !? I just don't get it. Are the missile skills working at all????
Will Basthard	Posted - 2005.08.06 18:01:00 - [26] Missiles JUST got changed m8. Don't be too hard on them. Even though you JUST signed up don't expect overnight changes. MMOGs don't curtail to that mentality. Not one of them. Missiles are very nice once you specialize. Missiles have a place now in EVE besides being gun alternatives. Its always nice to have a backup gun class ( personally I would go for Autocannon Specialization ) but Specializing in missiles from this point on will bring tons of variety to the game especially with new players. Its a beautiful thing in a nub... in that you will see things differently about missiles than that of me ( who is 2 years into this game and seen a vast change in missiles over the course ). I have to adapt... you have to learn... there is a huge difference in your favor.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.08.06 19:49:00 - [27] I find myself agreeing with Will. Anything is decent once you've put enough skillpoints into it and have enough experience using it. Right now missiles have been badly nerfed, but give it a year and they should be sorted out, or not as the case may be. It's hard starting out in a freshly nerfed field; I got my first Tempest right after the turret catastrophe we had last year that all but eliminated Artillery from the battlefield. That, with the launcher nerf and the CPR nerf one right after the other, turned the Tempest into the worst battleship in the game for close to a year, but eventually it got fixed. You just do what you enjoy and try not to get too wrapped up in the details. If you enjoy missiles, feel free to specialize in them, just be aware that sometimes they're be gimped, and sometimes they'll be uber. It's just one of those drawbacks to being a specialist. Harry Voyager
ShadowlordUK	Posted - 2005.08.06 20:27:00 - [28] I can understand why you might be annoyed that your missiles are falling 1 or 2km short of where they should be according to max velocity calculations. If you'd lost your ship because of that then anybody would be annoyed.. But genuinely, if you are the kind of person who needs to work everything out to the exact 1 km (no offence intended) then you should really stick to missiles... Just think how annoyed you are going to be if you get a string of random misses vs a huge great stationary building at point blank range!!! lol believe me i speak from experience. Guns are far more variable and far more random then missiles will ever be. With missiles you are pretty much garunteed a 'hit' (they never miss unless out of range) and they will always hit for roughly the same amount of dmg every time, vs a particular target... In terms of what you go for I suggest you learn a few skills of each at the start so you can enjoy the game, but most important is learning skills which will speed up your progress. Learn a bit more about the game before you make a choice to specialise. Missiles are far from crap (no matter how much wingeing the people on this forum do). Its a trade off, missiles always hit, some missile ships now have stupid range if you train the skills a bit (my friends cruiser hits targets for full dmg at 50km). You also have the option of choosing your dmg type which is important, and missiles dont use up energy when they fire, which helps your defences. On the other side turrets tend to do slightly more dmg when fitted to ships with good dmg bonuses(note: only at short range), they hit instantly (although this is pretty irrelevant unless you routinely fight in long range fleet battles. At the end of the day, the devs in this game go to huge lengths to make sure every option you could pick is equally balanced compared to any other option. (eg turrets vs missiles). If you hear somebody complaining its generally because they havent looked at the other side of the argument, or seen the full picture. So the best thing to do is decide what kind of fighting style you'd like to try first and pick the ship that does it best. Then pick the weapons that that ship uses... or alternatively, spend a while training up the learning and general fitting skills that everybody needs first, then pick a ship to go for after talking to your corp mates. Have fun!
Dar Lorkar	Posted - 2005.08.07 19:59:00 - [29] Try deleting the machonet (folder) from cache folder. Always log out of game after you train a skill. Most skills wont take affect(after training) till you have logged out.. and the new missile skills sometimes need the machonet cache folder deleted to make em work right. The speed * time is pretty much correct within +or- 1 k. As you.. i also am pretty new:P and am training gun skills over missile now. Maybe in a few months they will "fix" missiles.. just seems that they dont have them right yet to me.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.08.07 21:00:00 - [30] Originally by: Dar Lorkar Try deleting the machonet (folder) from cache folder. Always log out of game after you train a skill. Most skills wont take affect(after training) till you have logged out.. and the new missile skills sometimes need the machonet cache folder deleted to make em work right. Your client is broken if you have to do that. That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure.

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