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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 10:35:00 -
[1]
I think that NPCs should no longer produce any equipment.
The existance of NPC production ensures that all types of equipment are always available (albeit at high prices) which means the player base can cease producing equipment and it doesn't matter.
Given the lack of profit in the equipment manufacturing market and the fact that named pirate kit is better than the stock kit players can manufacture, I think that the majority of player manufacturers have left the market, and that this simply hasn't mattered - players either buy the odd bit of stock kit from an NPC, or, normally, buy named pirate loot.
If NPCs did not supply equipment, all player demand that does exist for equipment would be directed towards player manufactured stock kit since there would be no NPCs to supply this equipment. There would also be no artificial ceiling on the maximum price of player manufactured kit.
Similarly, I think NPC production of ships should stop.
Players manufacture ships and there is a healthy market since there are no pirate loot superior ships. NPC manufacture of shipping is I believe totally masked by player manufacturing, and serves only to enforce an artificial ceiling on player prices. This should be removed.
--
Callas
Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 10:58:35
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Psychia
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:04:00 -
[2]
Agreed
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:20:00 -
[3]
Disagreed.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:22:00 -
[4]
Erm.. what exactly are NPC producing?
I've bought various ships (for my collection) and equipments lately and none of that has been from NPCs, yet I'm doing this in 2 starting regions.
It is my understanding that NPC only made a single frigate per race, Navitas for Gallente for example.
¼©¼
a history |
Mandible
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:28:00 -
[5]
Yeah, i totaly agree. I had this dream of becomming a ammo/missile provider, starting small but growing steadily. made 100.000 pieces of ammo and spread it out over the universe, now 2 days later i sold 1000 of them. At this speed it will take me 200 days to get rid of them. ( I know that this may be caused by the fact that everyone probly making their own ammo). I recently stopped playing my manufaturer and started a fighter ,there is really no need in making anything other then ships. You either buy it from an npc or find it at pirates.
I really hope the economy gets healthy again, because i love to play with my manufacturer, I spend alot of time and efford in getting him to a reasonable industrial level.
I have full confidence however CCP will fix this sooner or later :-)
Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:29:57
Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:30:18
Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:30:52
Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:31:27
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:33:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
Disagreed.
"Agreed" as a one word response is fine, since it means the poster finds him or herself in accordance with the reasoning and arguments presented.
"Disagreed" as a one word response is typically inadequate, since it provides no information regarding the nature of the disagreement.
For all we know, you could be a rabid extreme right wing gun-totin' anti-abortion Bible-basher with some ancillary views on NCP production in MMORPGs, in which case we'd do well to ignore you, or possibly hunt you down and kill you for the good of society, you sick, sick man.
Or it might be you have valid and rational arguments which will influence the original case.
Alas, given the general intellectual inadequacy of people, my default is to assume that other people posses irrational and invalid arguments until they prove otherwise.
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Callas
Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 11:34:41
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ga'ia
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:33:00 -
[7]
Disagree, what npc produce is only basic (and some tech 1) stuff anyway, we are on the way into the tech 2 now.
__________________________________________________________ |
Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:34:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Erm.. what exactly are NPC producing?
Everything.
Go look in the market for ship equipment.
If you find a seller with huge volume and very high prices (like, 1m+ units of small armour repairer at 40k/unit) that's an NPC.
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Callas
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:37:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Disagree, what npc produce is only basic (and some tech 1) stuff anyway, we are on the way into the tech 2 now.
The rationale for the ceasation of NPC manufacturing is to direct such demand for stock kit as does exist to player manufactures.
The fact NPCs only produce basic or level 1 kit seems to me to be completely irrelevent. On what basis are you presenting this as an argument with which to dispute the original post?
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Callas
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:39:00 -
[10]
NPC production should remain because (afaik ;))
- Without NPC production there will be no NPC mineral demand.
- Without NPC production certain items will never be produced as it is not cost-efficient for people to produce them.
- It makes no sense from an IC point of view
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Snoop
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:44:00 -
[11]
nearly everything if not everything NPC's sell is very basic stuff that most people would not want to buy.
NO NPC MARKET = NO NPC CONVOYS....
does that mean no NPC sold blueprints aswell?
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Talfrag
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:44:00 -
[12]
I agree that NCP available products should be scaled down and they should only sell noob equipment the rest should be player manufactured.
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:48:00 -
[13]
Quote:
NPC production should remain because (afaik ;))
- Without NPC production there will be no NPC mineral demand.
NPC mineral demand and NPC production are currently entirely unrelated. Both are arbitrarily set; mineral demand does not relate in any way to production.
Certainly if it did mineral demand would have stopped already, because almost no one is buying NPC kit.
I see no harm in accepting the fact the two are unrelated and stopping NPC production. The benefits of doing so (helping the player market, removing the artificial price limit) outweigh the cost (maintaining the known-fake illusion that NPC mineral demand is related to NPC production).
Quote:
- Without NPC production certain items will never be produced as it is not cost-efficient for people to produce them.
If it not cost-efficient for something to be produced, then the need for it is sufficiently weak that the lowest reasonable price than can be charged by a seller is too high.
This either means the need is very weak or the cost of production is extremely high.
The latter case be dismissed, since it is cheap and easy for players to manufacture.
Therefore the only circumstance in which the posited problem occurs is when the need for the kit is very weak; plainly in this case the absence of the item can be easily born since it is not much needed in the first place.
Quote:
- It makes no sense from an IC point of view
What's "IC"?
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Callas
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:50:00 -
[14]
Quote:
nearly everything if not everything NPC's sell is very basic stuff that most people would not want to buy.
Quite so.
Quote:
NO NPC MARKET = NO NPC CONVOYS....
I don't see a problem in letting the convoys stay as they are.
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Callas
Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 11:52:46
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Sleekit
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Posted - 2003.07.20 11:57:00 -
[15]
The reason I don't put my manufactured goods on the market is because they do not sell period, it's nothing to do with npc's it's all to do with bp copies. Why on earth is anyone going to buy an item when they can just get a cheap bp copy and make what they need.
The market is broken, it brings a tear to my eye everytime I look at all my bp origionals.
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 12:46:00 -
[16]
Quote:
The reason I don't put my manufactured goods on the market is because they do not sell period, it's nothing to do with npc's it's all to do with bp copies.
This is indeed so, but your point is if I may say badly phrased. You imply an argument has been presented that NPC manufacturing is responsible for the failure of PC manufacturing.
No one has presented such an argument, nor would they, since it is not true.
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Callas
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Sleekit
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Posted - 2003.07.20 12:51:00 -
[17]
No but you do argue that npc prices cause an artificial ceiling. I argue that the bp copies mean that ceiling, there or not, will never be realised.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.07.20 12:54:00 -
[18]
"If you find a seller with huge volume and very high prices (like, 1m+ units of small armour repairer at 40k/unit) that's an NPC."
That or it's me. :)
Convert Stations
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 12:56:00 -
[19]
Quote:
No but you do argue that npc prices cause an artificial ceiling. I argue that the bp copies mean that ceiling, there or not, will never be realised.
You are correct.
Until BP copies are fixed, the whole PC market is utterly borked. Removing the NPC price limit now, while BP copies are as they currently are, will be a correct step but will have no consequences on the market. The change will only matter once BPs are sorted out. We should still take that correct step, though, because it is a correct step.
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Callas
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.20 13:00:00 -
[20]
The removal of the NPC supply of products would not be of any benefit.
The NPC products need to be permanent to ensure basic equipment is always available.
The prices for NPC equipment is fixed at a level high enough any players wishing to compete with the NPC would have no problems in doing so and making massive profits.
The main reason for the decrease in the player builder market is the work and time needed to produce goods is not worth the profit margins generated. This is how the system is supposed to work.
Previous threads have spoken towards other relevant factors which have caused the stagnation to the builder market.
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 13:17:00 -
[21]
Quote:
The removal of the NPC supply of products would not be of any benefit.
It would remove the artificial price limit and would ensure all player demand was directed towards player manufacturers.
This was detailed in the original post. These are indisputably benefits, therefore your assertation is incorrect.
Quote:
The NPC products need to be permanent to ensure basic equipment is always available.
Players can perform this function, and they will, because they can make a profit. It is much better to have players than NPCs performing this role because NPCs invariably distort the market since they do not behave properly - they do not care about profit, costs, supply and demand.
Quote:
The prices for NPC equipment is fixed at a level high enough any players wishing to compete with the NPC would have no problems in doing so and making massive profits.
This is not necessarily so.
When player manufacturing first began in Eve, player prices were in fact limited by NPC prices, and there's nothing wrong with making huge profits - even huger than those set by NPC prices.
If a manufacturer is ahead of the curve, then fair play to him - may he reap the full rewards of his skill.
Either way, I contend that players are better manufacturers for the game than NPCs, and therefore NPCs should go and along with them this artificial price limit.
Quote:
The main reason for the decrease in the player builder market is the work and time needed to produce goods is not worth the profit margins generated. This is how the system is supposed to work.
This is *not* so.
A market works so that a manufacturer can produce *with a reasonable profit*.
Any profit making activity must at least produce a reasonable profit. A reasonable profit is determined by the other profit making activities that are available (such as mining).
A manufacturer cannot long produce below this level, for it will cost him money, either in flat out losses if he charges too little, or more commonly the money he would otherwise have made by performing another activity which produces more profit.
No manufacturer will continue to manufacture if he can make more profit in the same time by mining.
The market regulates itself over time so that the prices charged are sufficient to match activies of similar skill and risk - mining is quite a good equivelent to manufacturing, although it requires less investment and knowledge to perform.
So, it is not correct to say the market is supposed to reduce prices to such an extent profit is no longer reasonable. A market that is doing this cannot long continue to behave in that way, because the losses being made by manufacturers will drive them out of the market, reducing supply and so increasing prices.
The natural outcome of a free market is that prices settle at a level which permits a reasonable profit. *This* is how a market is supposed to work.
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Callas
Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 13:23:30
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Sequin
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Posted - 2003.07.20 13:33:00 -
[22]
Ga'ia: NPC's don't drop tech 2 items? Then what the hell am I doing with this tech 2 low item i got, I must have built it unknowingly and not gotten it from pirate drops.
Tech 2 aint going to save the economy people, all it will do is get everyone back in the npc pirate fields because there the place you can get them without paying anyone money.
Edited by: Sequin on 20/07/2003 13:35:14
^A Raem Civre Original
EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original.
[i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything
Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork!
b]
We are evil exploiters! |
Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 13:39:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Ga'ia: NPC's don't drop tech 2 items? Then what the hell am I doing with this tech 2 low item i got, I must have built it unknowingly and not gotten it from pirate drops.
Ga'ia said;
"Disagree, what npc produce is only basic (and some tech 1) stuff anyway, we are on the way into the tech 2 now."
She and everyone else in this thread are talking about NPC manufacturing in the market, not NPC drops.
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Callas
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Sequin
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Posted - 2003.07.20 13:48:00 -
[24]
Your missing the point Callas, npc manufactering stops, pc manufactering of items like missles, ammo and anything other than ships will still not work as you can get all that and more from twenty minutes of pirate smashing or ten minuts of convoy killing. NPC manufactering is just one cog in a real bad system.
^A Raem Civre Original
EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original.
[i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything
Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork!
b]
We are evil exploiters! |
Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 14:08:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Your missing the point Callas, npc manufactering stops, pc manufactering of items like missles, ammo and anything other than ships will still not work as you can get all that and more from twenty minutes of pirate smashing or ten minuts of convoy killing. NPC manufactering is just one cog in a real bad system.
You are correct. Removing NPC manufacturing will not fix the player manufacturing market. But it is one of a number of steps all of which must be taken for player manufacturing to prosper. This step should be taken, just as the others (BP fixing, named pirate loot) need to be taken.
--
Callas
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three fitty
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Posted - 2003.07.20 14:30:00 -
[26]
i think its a bad idea
people are always posting about how bad the market is in eve and i will admit it could use some tweaking
but i think that 90% of the people who want to build/sell in eve just suck at it and they will die out
if you dont offer something better/diffrent then the other guy then you will not make it
if i want to buy a paperclip in eve ill use the market and pick one up or get a BP copy for a litle more and make my own
i asked here days ago about buying a mammoth some what loaded...i got 0 responses i guesse everyone thought it would be better then to take time for such a small gain..whatever it is on a mammoth
i watch the trade channel alot and i am learning there are good traders out there but id say only 1 in 10 who have what i think it takes if you dont have time for your buyers they will go elsewhere even to npc's
and what is with the large font
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.20 15:09:00 -
[27]
Quote:
i think its a bad idea
Unfortunately, I was unable to discern a reason why you think this in the material that followed the quoted sentance; the issues you discuss are interesting and worth debating but as far as I can tell entirely orthagonal to the point in hand.
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Callas
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three fitty
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Posted - 2003.07.20 15:18:00 -
[28]
and the font?
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Athren Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.07.20 15:57:00 -
[29]
Actually, stopping NPC production will not solve what you expect it to solve. What would solve the market problem is to have the NPC pirates stop dropping anything but ammo.
Stopping NPC producion would adjust the market, it would remove the artifical pricing. Why is ISO 64isk? Because that what the NPCs price it at. How do you know what the price of a rifter is? Supposedly because the NPCs set the list price.
Point being, without the NPCs producing and thus selling you have no list (retail) pricing. You think it's bad now, remove the "average" price calls from the market and we will be buying ships at 100 isk above cost.
Though I personally don't see that as a bad thing, and yes i am one of the largest ship sellers in placid.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.20 16:02:00 -
[30]
NPCs set a price ceiling on items. Manufacturers can't sell above that price without the NPCs offering better prices. The products on the market are nowhere near the npc prices.
There's no point in removing NPCs except price gouging
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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