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Rogue Noir
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Posted - 2003.07.20 16:19:00 -
[31]
Im not even going to read your long winded posturing any more callas. Its time YOU were turned off.
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Shady trader, fence and gentleman extrordionaire.
Noir Enterprises Site |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2003.07.20 16:20:00 -
[32]
I would have NPC stop selling some of what they sell now, but not all. And I would have them increase NPC prices. That way there would still be a reliable supply of low tech equipment, though it would be more expensive, and there would be a bit better market for PCs to sell the stuff they make.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.20 16:29:00 -
[33]
"Your missing the point Callas, npc manufactering stops, pc manufactering of items like missles, ammo and anything other than ships will still not work as you can get all that and more from twenty minutes of pirate smashing or ten minuts of convoy killing"
You are welcome to go out and try how long it'll really take you to collect say, 3k of specific type of ammo from NPC drops. Maybe this is different when fighting pirate cruisers, but from my experience you'll get one or two packs of 100 bullets (of different and often useless types) from every five pirate frigates.
So if no one else, a lot of starting players would be forced to buy the ammo and most of their equipment on the PC market, just like they shop on the NPC market now simply because it's more convenient and saves time...
Edited by: j0sephine on 20/07/2003 16:31:22
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Amicus
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Posted - 2003.07.20 16:35:00 -
[34]
From what I have seen, NPC's generally charge at least 300% of cost on a limited number of basic goods (mostly stuff that Noobs will buy). This does not seem like much of a price ceiling. There is plenty of room for players to make profits in there. Most of the pressure I have seen on prices comes from competition between player manufacturers. If the NPC goods are so underpriced, then just buy up the NPC goods and resell at a profit. If the NPC's are too much competition for you at the prices that they are charging, then it sounds like you are really not interested in competition -- but rather monopoly. Monopolies on basic goods will not help our markets IMHO.
Edited by: Amicus on 20/07/2003 16:36:25
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Malais
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Posted - 2003.07.20 16:52:00 -
[35]
I have a request of my own. Will people stop making requests of CCP for 1 week so they can actually spend some time finishing the game?
The items produced by NPCs are 'basic' tech items. Basic items are well below any loot drop, and below all level 1 tech stuff. The only items NPCs produce that are equal are ammos.
And as for the high volume items on the market, how long do you think it takes for a 'decent' manufacturer to make level 1 armor repairers? Buy 1 I'll be willing to bet it is PC made.
Ohh and Callas without NPCs producing trade goods, your precisous robotics trade routes will be worthless. Or if PC's produced trade goods, you could kiss trading good-bye. Why would someone bother to sell for less than NPC buying price?
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LiQuiDCooL
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Posted - 2003.07.20 22:53:00 -
[36]
A little FYI for ya....
The NPC is not what hurting the Market. Its everyone trying to manufacture everything.. I haven't noticed too many things besides skills that i have purchsed from an NPC. Ships, equip. and other stuff. like trade good are npc too but also players.. NPC selling and trading is needed for setting a standard price for players to compeate on. but I can't wait till new tech level become aval. on market. should help stablize the market for everyone.
Thanx...
~LiQuiDCooL
LiQuiDCooL
Shinra ~ The Good Guys |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.20 23:02:00 -
[37]
There's no point in removing the NPCs from the market. Their artificial price limits aren't in any danger of being hit.
Callas, what good is removing the price ceiling when even if you had a ladder, you have no hope of reaching it?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
EvilGrin
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Posted - 2003.07.21 02:00:00 -
[38]
I would like NPC supply to be regulated by market conditions. ie, if the playerbase is producing lots of ships in a region, the local NPC base will stop producing ships as theres little demand.
Addtionally, I'd like to suggest that NPCs can act as a 'counterbalance'. So if there is a large supply of PC manufactured ships, perhaps NPCs could start demanding ships instead of supplying them?
All of the above equally applies to ship equipment, blueprints, etc
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Agent Shield
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Posted - 2003.07.21 03:18:00 -
[39]
I think the market should be left alone. If 100 corps are making a widget, eventually some will drop out of manufacturing because of price competition; as the market should be.
Let the market react to products on the market and their prices.
Agent Shield |
Isomerone
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Posted - 2003.07.21 04:03:00 -
[40]
If there is going to be NPC supply then there should be NPC demand. After everyone has a battleship, there will be nothing left to produce for a profit.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.21 04:20:00 -
[41]
<< If there is going to be NPC supply then there should be NPC demand. After everyone has a battleship, there will be nothing left to produce for a profit. >>
So create a freebie market for items nobody needs? So manufacturers can make free isk?
How about fixing the issue of nobody needing to replace any equipment except through loss? Because with your solution, the same people that outmanufacture you will beat you to the npc demand every day. Every time.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
nono
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Posted - 2003.07.21 04:27:00 -
[42]
Think of it this way. If there was never an NPC demand for minerals at a set price what basis would you have for pricing anything?
Take away the NPC demand for minerals and you would have items and ships selling for far less then they are now just to make money. To believe people would buy the minerals and produce is rediculous. They would mine, produce whatever and sell for whatever they could get. As it stands now the only thing propping it up is the demand for minerals from the NPC's.
For the non believers you only need to look at the current situation. How many ships etc. sell for below NPC mineral value? They don't, and the cry is why are people selling for NEAR mineral value. The answer? Because they have no choice. Someone else will.
All this was pointed out before live and shortly after release. You will only ever recover your "investment" if your first out of the gate before others get the BP. That or you produce for yourself and look at it that your investment was covered by what you would have saved by buying the item. Not very logical on much more then ammo as you are not going to need a ton of ships.
Proof in this? Frigates made money for a week or two. Cruisers same deal. Battleships perhaps can hang on longer but trust me the price is going to drastically come down in time. People will undercut until its at the level of minerals. Someone here said prices should be half what NPC charge. I have no idea where that number came from but have a look at the prices for battleships now and compare where frigates and cruisers were when they first started being produced.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.21 05:15:00 -
[43]
<< Someone here said prices should be half what NPC charge. I have no idea where that number came from but have a look at the prices for battleships now and compare where frigates and cruisers were when they first started being produced. >>
I said it. It came from CCP. NPC buy for 1/2 the price intended if a player purchased the same product. And they sell for twice what they intend for a player to sell the same product. Which means minerals still have a lot of climbing to do pricewise. And ships can prolly stand to shave a few more points off if they hold to plan.
The biggest issue is simply that 1 is enough. The only people losing ships are newbies and people that participate in PvP, short of server instability and bugs (like Concord). The NPCs present almost no risk beyond the first encounter. If the ships aren't getting destroyed, there's no new demand.
The game needs wear and tear.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lola
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Posted - 2003.07.21 05:57:00 -
[44]
Wear and tear just sounds like a time sink to me. I'd take meanful reasons to PvP over a time sink any day.
Imagine yourself mining for the minerals to build another battleship because CCP added item decay but no meanful PVP. How long will you continue to play?
Now imagine yourself mining for the minerals to build another battleship because your corp is at war with another corp that has been trying to muscle in on your trade routes (or whatever). How long will this hold your interest?
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Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
Chagidiel
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Posted - 2003.07.21 07:17:00 -
[45]
Agree.
NPC:s should, at least stop producing ammunition. Then the ammunition market would work even better.
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shaka
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Posted - 2003.07.21 07:43:00 -
[46]
Agreed.
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.21 08:44:00 -
[47]
 Quote:
Think of it this way. If there was never an NPC demand for minerals at a set price what basis would you have for pricing anything?
The market works it out for itself.
Consider; there are no guides for how much named pirate loot should be worth, but prices were rapidly established and those prices rapidly adjust as the supply of kit fluctuates when the loot tables are modified.
Consider; real-life. No higher authority turns around and sets the price of cars or wheat or sugar or antiques or art. People figure out what to charge so they can make a reasonable profit, taking all things into account.
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Callas
Edited by: Callas on 21/07/2003 08:44:52
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.21 08:49:00 -
[48]
Quote:
Take away the NPC demand for minerals and you would have items and ships selling for far less then they are now just to make money.
This point has been raised I believe no less than three times in this thread and I have replied on each occasion pointing out that NPC demand for minerals is already entirely unrelated to NPC manufacturing and to *assume* I wish NPC mineral to be removed because I want NPC manufacturing to removed is incorrect.
NPC mineral demand will stay as it is.
Address your counter-arguments to the arguments I have made, rather than to arguments I have never thought of and have never said.
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Callas
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.07.21 10:15:00 -
[49]
Who EVER buys something at NPC prices if a player is making it? No one I know...
NPC goods are there for one and only one reason: so certain needed items will always be available. Not every item is built regularly by players in every region. Should noobs have to fly all over the galaxy just to buy a civillian shield booster? How many of you are going to waste a factory slot making civillian shield boosters to sell to noobs?
PC prices should NEVER reach NPC prices, so there's no reason to call NPC prices an artificial cap. Anything produced by NPCs is readily available as a blueprint, so if you try to jack up your price someone else will just buy a BP and undersell you. Professional manufacturers will have Production Efficiency and use researched BPs, so they can sell below MINERAL cost for someone with a stock BP and no PE skill and still make a profit. The idea that prices could EVER rise to NPC levels in that environment is laughable.
In short, removing the NPC items would have no effect WHATSOEVER on people who build items, but would severely inconvenience new players looking for cheap starter gear that nobody bothers to sell publicly. The only way something could possibly sell for more than NPC cost would be if only a handful of people could make it. That would require BPs for that item to be rare, and NPCs wouldn't be selling something that required a rare drop BP anyway...
Edited by: Archemedes on 21/07/2003 10:16:15
Edited by: Archemedes on 21/07/2003 10:17:41
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.21 11:20:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Who EVER buys something at NPC prices if a player is making it? No one I know...
However, the very fact that NPCs *do* make things makes it less likely that players will manufacture things.
There is always a supply of all the basic kit, so even if players make nothing, demand for what they make can still be fufilled.
I have on occasion bought bits of kit at NPC prices because I had a need - and given the amount of money most people have, the difference between the NPC and player price is pretty trivial.
I have noted that players are producing less and less kit. There used to be stuff like small armour repairers *everywhere*. Now there appear to be only two or three systems selling PC kit.
Of course, this is due mainly to BP copies and pirate kit being superior, but the existance of NPC manufactured kit means that player manufacturing *can* stop will no ill effects.
If NPCs did not manufacture, the demand that NPCs meet would be redirected towards player manufacturers, which would help their market a little.
Quote:
NPC goods are there for one and only one reason: so certain needed items will always be available.
Those items will be just as available if players make them as if NPC makes them, and it is far better that players make them, because NPCs distort the market; they don't care about supply and demand, profits, competition, etc.
Quote:
Not every item is built regularly by players in every region.
Indeed not. But this is fine in and of itself. I don't expect to find a manufacturer of Bizzare-O-Tron mark I in Stain.
Quote:
Should noobs have to fly all over the galaxy just to buy a civillian shield booster? How many of you are going to waste a factory slot making civillian shield boosters to sell to noobs?
If a profit can be made, a player will make the item. In particular, newbie start systems will be (and are) extremely well serviced because of the large number of players there.
Please see a previous post where I explain in detail about the ease of supply and the weakness of demand.
Quote:
PC prices should NEVER reach NPC prices, so there's no reason to call NPC prices an artificial cap.
Please see a previous post where I pointed out NPC prices were indeed a cap when manufacturing started, and that whether or not player prices will reach this limit, it is still an artificial limit and so should be removed.
Quote:
In short, removing the NPC items would have no effect WHATSOEVER on people who build items
This is incorrect.
If there is no NPC manufacturing, all player demand must be redirected towards player manufacturers. Clearly this will have an effect on players who manufacture.
I think you assume *no one* buys NPC kit. This is not so in the first place. Much more important however is the effect the very existance of NPC kit has upon the market, since it means the player base as a whole can afford not to manufacture anything, since a supply is always available from NPCs; the entire player manufacuring base can go up in smoke *and it just won't matter*, because NPCs, with their infinite supply of kit at exactly the same price, fill the gap. That's bad - that's a serious, serious market distortion.
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Callas
Edited by: Callas on 21/07/2003 11:20:51
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Callas
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Posted - 2003.07.21 11:31:00 -
[51]
Quote:
and the font?
Every font in this thread looks the same to me, and is the one specified in my browser.
I don't use font tags in my posts, so I suspect something is misconfigured in your browser or in your forum preference.
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Callas
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.07.21 11:36:00 -
[52]
Great, with no npc manufactors there isnt a set price for minerals. So bye bye isogen for 64 isk, bye bye 16 isk per mexallon.. It would mean the end of the market in EVE.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Yaeger
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Posted - 2003.07.21 13:01:00 -
[53]
Dreamworks: Haven't you been reading the topic? Let me take some of the workload off Callas, NPC manufacturing is NOT related to NPC mineral demand. I personally think Callas is wrong in that we shouldn't remove npc mineral demand (we should) but, once again, NPC mineral demand and manufacturing have no effect on each other.
"I think we all need to train spelling"
"I need typing lvl 2 first, though" - Help Channel,
"Now you guys can flame me. Ready..... GO!"
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Barl Rathbone
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Posted - 2003.07.21 13:13:00 -
[54]
I would like to see MORE mineral demand from NPC to try to get people moving away from the starter systems.
NPC prices should be fairly uncompetitive but should still be worth selling to.
PS Callas - your font is huge on my work PC and home PC. Neither of which have large fonts and I have never touched my board preferences.
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Adrenalin
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Posted - 2003.07.21 13:20:00 -
[55]
Once higher level PC equipment is released (ie: Tech Level 2-5, Reverse Engineering) there will be a demand for player production. The produced PC goods will be equal to or better than 'most' of the NPC drops (with exception of special or super rare items).
Currently PC manufacturers only have tech one, which is absolute garbage (hence why the NPC market sells it). Its newbie gear to get you off the ground to get better stuff.
Just hold out and things will get better.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2003.07.21 13:24:00 -
[56]
Callas's font is slightly smaller than normal on my browser (Opera), but still the same font as all the writing on this page.
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Barl Rathbone
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Posted - 2003.07.21 13:25:00 -
[57]
It does make sense for NPC only to produced tech 1.
However I forsee a stampede for Tech 2 BP's so hopefully they will be plenfitul !
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Cachorro Louco
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Posted - 2003.07.21 14:03:00 -
[58]
All I got to say to this is:
If the NPC production gets turned off then turn it off GRADUALLY! Don't go hitting the off switch in one fell swoop. Do it over a week or two period.
Mad Dog says:
Bet I'm the only true Reverend in the game. It says so on the printout I got from an Internet site. |
Lola
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Posted - 2003.07.21 14:08:00 -
[59]
The font issue is with quoting. For some reason the board software increases the font size when people quote.
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Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
nono
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Posted - 2003.07.21 14:14:00 -
[60]
Quote: Several in this thread
" NPC mineral demand and manufacturing have no effect on each other."
NPC mineral demand is directly related to PC manufacturing and prices.(fact)
NPC mineral demand has no effect on NPC manufacturing.(fact)
Is that better Callas?
Without the standard prices of minerals set by NPC's, manufacturers would have nothing to gauge the prices on. Manufacturers stop making product when the price is drivin to the value of the minerals. Why manfacture something and wait for it to sell when you can get your money by selling the minerals.
Nothing else is more realted to PC prices in this game as the demand for manufactured goods is just not there. Even if there was endless demand the prices would not climb. People would continue to undersell their competition just to make the sale. That or sell the minerals and not manufacture at all.
As to the hidden agenda of this thread (you always have one) I can't seem to see it, other then maybe you have now diverted your attention to manufacturing and you want to instill some change so that YOU can sell. Is this another way of saying " Nobody is buying my stuff so something HAS to change". Remember you only post having just discovered something that affects you.
Take away all NPC manufactured goods and what do we have? Cheaper prices then anything the NPC's ever charged. NPC prices were the first to be undercut followed by players undercutting each other down to NPC mineral prices.
Mass BP copies, basic item loot drops, no quality loss on items leading to rebuilding or repurchase. are all good arguments. I see nothing to call for the halt of NPC items on the market, noone buys them anyway.
As for the font? It's how he quotes. It's the way the forum generates the font. Obviously it can be worked around by simply Quoting "---" but some people need to compensate for things.
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