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It's time for NPC production to be turned off

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Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 10:35:00 - [1] I think that NPCs should no longer produce any equipment. The existance of NPC production ensures that all types of equipment are always available (albeit at high prices) which means the player base can cease producing equipment and it doesn't matter. Given the lack of profit in the equipment manufacturing market and the fact that named pirate kit is better than the stock kit players can manufacture, I think that the majority of player manufacturers have left the market, and that this simply hasn't mattered - players either buy the odd bit of stock kit from an NPC, or, normally, buy named pirate loot. If NPCs did not supply equipment, all player demand that does exist for equipment would be directed towards player manufactured stock kit since there would be no NPCs to supply this equipment. There would also be no artificial ceiling on the maximum price of player manufactured kit. Similarly, I think NPC production of ships should stop. Players manufacture ships and there is a healthy market since there are no pirate loot superior ships. NPC manufacture of shipping is I believe totally masked by player manufacturing, and serves only to enforce an artificial ceiling on player prices. This should be removed. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 10:58:35
Psychia	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:04:00 - [2] Agreed
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:20:00 - [3] Disagreed. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Riddari	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:22:00 - [4] Erm.. what exactly are NPC producing? I've bought various ships (for my collection) and equipments lately and none of that has been from NPCs, yet I'm doing this in 2 starting regions. It is my understanding that NPC only made a single frigate per race, Navitas for Gallente for example. ¼©¼ a history
Mandible	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:28:00 - [5] Yeah, i totaly agree. I had this dream of becomming a ammo/missile provider, starting small but growing steadily. made 100.000 pieces of ammo and spread it out over the universe, now 2 days later i sold 1000 of them. At this speed it will take me 200 days to get rid of them. ( I know that this may be caused by the fact that everyone probly making their own ammo). I recently stopped playing my manufaturer and started a fighter ,there is really no need in making anything other then ships. You either buy it from an npc or find it at pirates. I really hope the economy gets healthy again, because i love to play with my manufacturer, I spend alot of time and efford in getting him to a reasonable industrial level. I have full confidence however CCP will fix this sooner or later :-) Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:29:57 Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:30:18 Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:30:52 Edited by: Mandible on 20/07/2003 11:31:27
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:33:00 - [6] Quote: Disagreed. "Agreed" as a one word response is fine, since it means the poster finds him or herself in accordance with the reasoning and arguments presented. "Disagreed" as a one word response is typically inadequate, since it provides no information regarding the nature of the disagreement. For all we know, you could be a rabid extreme right wing gun-totin' anti-abortion Bible-basher with some ancillary views on NCP production in MMORPGs, in which case we'd do well to ignore you, or possibly hunt you down and kill you for the good of society, you sick, sick man. Or it might be you have valid and rational arguments which will influence the original case. Alas, given the general intellectual inadequacy of people, my default is to assume that other people posses irrational and invalid arguments until they prove otherwise. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 11:34:41
ga'ia	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:33:00 - [7] Disagree, what npc produce is only basic (and some tech 1) stuff anyway, we are on the way into the tech 2 now. __________________________________________________________
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:34:00 - [8] Quote: Erm.. what exactly are NPC producing? Everything. Go look in the market for ship equipment. If you find a seller with huge volume and very high prices (like, 1m+ units of small armour repairer at 40k/unit) that's an NPC. -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:37:00 - [9] Quote: Disagree, what npc produce is only basic (and some tech 1) stuff anyway, we are on the way into the tech 2 now. The rationale for the ceasation of NPC manufacturing is to direct such demand for stock kit as does exist to player manufactures. The fact NPCs only produce basic or level 1 kit seems to me to be completely irrelevent. On what basis are you presenting this as an argument with which to dispute the original post? -- Callas
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:39:00 - [10] NPC production should remain because (afaik ;)) - Without NPC production there will be no NPC mineral demand. - Without NPC production certain items will never be produced as it is not cost-efficient for people to produce them. - It makes no sense from an IC point of view [Heterocephalus glaber]
Snoop	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:44:00 - [11] nearly everything if not everything NPC's sell is very basic stuff that most people would not want to buy. NO NPC MARKET = NO NPC CONVOYS.... does that mean no NPC sold blueprints aswell?
Talfrag	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:44:00 - [12] I agree that NCP available products should be scaled down and they should only sell noob equipment the rest should be player manufactured.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:48:00 - [13] Quote: NPC production should remain because (afaik ;)) - Without NPC production there will be no NPC mineral demand. NPC mineral demand and NPC production are currently entirely unrelated. Both are arbitrarily set; mineral demand does not relate in any way to production. Certainly if it did mineral demand would have stopped already, because almost no one is buying NPC kit. I see no harm in accepting the fact the two are unrelated and stopping NPC production. The benefits of doing so (helping the player market, removing the artificial price limit) outweigh the cost (maintaining the known-fake illusion that NPC mineral demand is related to NPC production). Quote: - Without NPC production certain items will never be produced as it is not cost-efficient for people to produce them. If it not cost-efficient for something to be produced, then the need for it is sufficiently weak that the lowest reasonable price than can be charged by a seller is too high. This either means the need is very weak or the cost of production is extremely high. The latter case be dismissed, since it is cheap and easy for players to manufacture. Therefore the only circumstance in which the posited problem occurs is when the need for the kit is very weak; plainly in this case the absence of the item can be easily born since it is not much needed in the first place. Quote: - It makes no sense from an IC point of view What's "IC"? -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:50:00 - [14] Quote: nearly everything if not everything NPC's sell is very basic stuff that most people would not want to buy. Quite so. Quote: NO NPC MARKET = NO NPC CONVOYS.... I don't see a problem in letting the convoys stay as they are. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 11:52:46
Sleekit	Posted - 2003.07.20 11:57:00 - [15] The reason I don't put my manufactured goods on the market is because they do not sell period, it's nothing to do with npc's it's all to do with bp copies. Why on earth is anyone going to buy an item when they can just get a cheap bp copy and make what they need. The market is broken, it brings a tear to my eye everytime I look at all my bp origionals.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 12:46:00 - [16] Quote: The reason I don't put my manufactured goods on the market is because they do not sell period, it's nothing to do with npc's it's all to do with bp copies. This is indeed so, but your point is if I may say badly phrased. You imply an argument has been presented that NPC manufacturing is responsible for the failure of PC manufacturing. No one has presented such an argument, nor would they, since it is not true. -- Callas
Sleekit	Posted - 2003.07.20 12:51:00 - [17] No but you do argue that npc prices cause an artificial ceiling. I argue that the bp copies mean that ceiling, there or not, will never be realised.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.07.20 12:54:00 - [18] "If you find a seller with huge volume and very high prices (like, 1m+ units of small armour repairer at 40k/unit) that's an NPC." That or it's me. :) Convert Stations
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 12:56:00 - [19] Quote: No but you do argue that npc prices cause an artificial ceiling. I argue that the bp copies mean that ceiling, there or not, will never be realised. You are correct. Until BP copies are fixed, the whole PC market is utterly borked. Removing the NPC price limit now, while BP copies are as they currently are, will be a correct step but will have no consequences on the market. The change will only matter once BPs are sorted out. We should still take that correct step, though, because it is a correct step. -- Callas
Jojin	Posted - 2003.07.20 13:00:00 - [20] The removal of the NPC supply of products would not be of any benefit. The NPC products need to be permanent to ensure basic equipment is always available. The prices for NPC equipment is fixed at a level high enough any players wishing to compete with the NPC would have no problems in doing so and making massive profits. The main reason for the decrease in the player builder market is the work and time needed to produce goods is not worth the profit margins generated. This is how the system is supposed to work. Previous threads have spoken towards other relevant factors which have caused the stagnation to the builder market.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 13:17:00 - [21] Quote: The removal of the NPC supply of products would not be of any benefit. It would remove the artificial price limit and would ensure all player demand was directed towards player manufacturers. This was detailed in the original post. These are indisputably benefits, therefore your assertation is incorrect. Quote: The NPC products need to be permanent to ensure basic equipment is always available. Players can perform this function, and they will, because they can make a profit. It is much better to have players than NPCs performing this role because NPCs invariably distort the market since they do not behave properly - they do not care about profit, costs, supply and demand. Quote: The prices for NPC equipment is fixed at a level high enough any players wishing to compete with the NPC would have no problems in doing so and making massive profits. This is not necessarily so. When player manufacturing first began in Eve, player prices were in fact limited by NPC prices, and there's nothing wrong with making huge profits - even huger than those set by NPC prices. If a manufacturer is ahead of the curve, then fair play to him - may he reap the full rewards of his skill. Either way, I contend that players are better manufacturers for the game than NPCs, and therefore NPCs should go and along with them this artificial price limit. Quote: The main reason for the decrease in the player builder market is the work and time needed to produce goods is not worth the profit margins generated. This is how the system is supposed to work. This is not so. A market works so that a manufacturer can produce with a reasonable profit. Any profit making activity must at least produce a reasonable profit. A reasonable profit is determined by the other profit making activities that are available (such as mining). A manufacturer cannot long produce below this level, for it will cost him money, either in flat out losses if he charges too little, or more commonly the money he would otherwise have made by performing another activity which produces more profit. No manufacturer will continue to manufacture if he can make more profit in the same time by mining. The market regulates itself over time so that the prices charged are sufficient to match activies of similar skill and risk - mining is quite a good equivelent to manufacturing, although it requires less investment and knowledge to perform. So, it is not correct to say the market is supposed to reduce prices to such an extent profit is no longer reasonable. A market that is doing this cannot long continue to behave in that way, because the losses being made by manufacturers will drive them out of the market, reducing supply and so increasing prices. The natural outcome of a free market is that prices settle at a level which permits a reasonable profit. This is how a market is supposed to work. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 20/07/2003 13:23:30
Sequin	Posted - 2003.07.20 13:33:00 - [22] Ga'ia: NPC's don't drop tech 2 items? Then what the hell am I doing with this tech 2 low item i got, I must have built it unknowingly and not gotten it from pirate drops. Tech 2 aint going to save the economy people, all it will do is get everyone back in the npc pirate fields because there the place you can get them without paying anyone money. Edited by: Sequin on 20/07/2003 13:35:14 ^A Raem Civre Original EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original. [i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork! b] We are evil exploiters!
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 13:39:00 - [23] Quote: Ga'ia: NPC's don't drop tech 2 items? Then what the hell am I doing with this tech 2 low item i got, I must have built it unknowingly and not gotten it from pirate drops. Ga'ia said; "Disagree, what npc produce is only basic (and some tech 1) stuff anyway, we are on the way into the tech 2 now." She and everyone else in this thread are talking about NPC manufacturing in the market, not NPC drops. -- Callas
Sequin	Posted - 2003.07.20 13:48:00 - [24] Your missing the point Callas, npc manufactering stops, pc manufactering of items like missles, ammo and anything other than ships will still not work as you can get all that and more from twenty minutes of pirate smashing or ten minuts of convoy killing. NPC manufactering is just one cog in a real bad system. ^A Raem Civre Original EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original. [i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork! b] We are evil exploiters!
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 14:08:00 - [25] Quote: Your missing the point Callas, npc manufactering stops, pc manufactering of items like missles, ammo and anything other than ships will still not work as you can get all that and more from twenty minutes of pirate smashing or ten minuts of convoy killing. NPC manufactering is just one cog in a real bad system. You are correct. Removing NPC manufacturing will not fix the player manufacturing market. But it is one of a number of steps all of which must be taken for player manufacturing to prosper. This step should be taken, just as the others (BP fixing, named pirate loot) need to be taken. -- Callas
three fitty	Posted - 2003.07.20 14:30:00 - [26] i think its a bad idea people are always posting about how bad the market is in eve and i will admit it could use some tweaking but i think that 90% of the people who want to build/sell in eve just suck at it and they will die out if you dont offer something better/diffrent then the other guy then you will not make it if i want to buy a paperclip in eve ill use the market and pick one up or get a BP copy for a litle more and make my own i asked here days ago about buying a mammoth some what loaded...i got 0 responses i guesse everyone thought it would be better then to take time for such a small gain..whatever it is on a mammoth i watch the trade channel alot and i am learning there are good traders out there but id say only 1 in 10 who have what i think it takes if you dont have time for your buyers they will go elsewhere even to npc's and what is with the large font
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.20 15:09:00 - [27] Quote: i think its a bad idea Unfortunately, I was unable to discern a reason why you think this in the material that followed the quoted sentance; the issues you discuss are interesting and worth debating but as far as I can tell entirely orthagonal to the point in hand. -- Callas
three fitty	Posted - 2003.07.20 15:18:00 - [28] and the font?
Athren Soulsteal	Posted - 2003.07.20 15:57:00 - [29] Actually, stopping NPC production will not solve what you expect it to solve. What would solve the market problem is to have the NPC pirates stop dropping anything but ammo. Stopping NPC producion would adjust the market, it would remove the artifical pricing. Why is ISO 64isk? Because that what the NPCs price it at. How do you know what the price of a rifter is? Supposedly because the NPCs set the list price. Point being, without the NPCs producing and thus selling you have no list (retail) pricing. You think it's bad now, remove the "average" price calls from the market and we will be buying ships at 100 isk above cost. Though I personally don't see that as a bad thing, and yes i am one of the largest ship sellers in placid.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.20 16:02:00 - [30] NPCs set a price ceiling on items. Manufacturers can't sell above that price without the NPCs offering better prices. The products on the market are nowhere near the npc prices. There's no point in removing NPCs except price gouging I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Rogue Noir	Posted - 2003.07.20 16:19:00 - [31] Im not even going to read your long winded posturing any more callas. Its time YOU were turned off. ----------------------------------------------- Shady trader, fence and gentleman extrordionaire. Noir Enterprises Site
Wrangler	Posted - 2003.07.20 16:20:00 - [32] I would have NPC stop selling some of what they sell now, but not all. And I would have them increase NPC prices. That way there would still be a reliable supply of low tech equipment, though it would be more expensive, and there would be a bit better market for PCs to sell the stuff they make. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.07.20 16:29:00 - [33] "Your missing the point Callas, npc manufactering stops, pc manufactering of items like missles, ammo and anything other than ships will still not work as you can get all that and more from twenty minutes of pirate smashing or ten minuts of convoy killing" You are welcome to go out and try how long it'll really take you to collect say, 3k of specific type of ammo from NPC drops. Maybe this is different when fighting pirate cruisers, but from my experience you'll get one or two packs of 100 bullets (of different and often useless types) from every five pirate frigates. So if no one else, a lot of starting players would be forced to buy the ammo and most of their equipment on the PC market, just like they shop on the NPC market now simply because it's more convenient and saves time... Edited by: j0sephine on 20/07/2003 16:31:22
Amicus	Posted - 2003.07.20 16:35:00 - [34] From what I have seen, NPC's generally charge at least 300% of cost on a limited number of basic goods (mostly stuff that Noobs will buy). This does not seem like much of a price ceiling. There is plenty of room for players to make profits in there. Most of the pressure I have seen on prices comes from competition between player manufacturers. If the NPC goods are so underpriced, then just buy up the NPC goods and resell at a profit. If the NPC's are too much competition for you at the prices that they are charging, then it sounds like you are really not interested in competition -- but rather monopoly. Monopolies on basic goods will not help our markets IMHO. Edited by: Amicus on 20/07/2003 16:36:25
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.20 16:52:00 - [35] I have a request of my own. Will people stop making requests of CCP for 1 week so they can actually spend some time finishing the game? The items produced by NPCs are 'basic' tech items. Basic items are well below any loot drop, and below all level 1 tech stuff. The only items NPCs produce that are equal are ammos. And as for the high volume items on the market, how long do you think it takes for a 'decent' manufacturer to make level 1 armor repairers? Buy 1 I'll be willing to bet it is PC made. Ohh and Callas without NPCs producing trade goods, your precisous robotics trade routes will be worthless. Or if PC's produced trade goods, you could kiss trading good-bye. Why would someone bother to sell for less than NPC buying price?
LiQuiDCooL	Posted - 2003.07.20 22:53:00 - [36] A little FYI for ya.... The NPC is not what hurting the Market. Its everyone trying to manufacture everything.. I haven't noticed too many things besides skills that i have purchsed from an NPC. Ships, equip. and other stuff. like trade good are npc too but also players.. NPC selling and trading is needed for setting a standard price for players to compeate on. but I can't wait till new tech level become aval. on market. should help stablize the market for everyone. Thanx... ~LiQuiDCooL LiQuiDCooL Shinra ~ The Good Guys
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.20 23:02:00 - [37] There's no point in removing the NPCs from the market. Their artificial price limits aren't in any danger of being hit. Callas, what good is removing the price ceiling when even if you had a ladder, you have no hope of reaching it? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
EvilGrin	Posted - 2003.07.21 02:00:00 - [38] I would like NPC supply to be regulated by market conditions. ie, if the playerbase is producing lots of ships in a region, the local NPC base will stop producing ships as theres little demand. Addtionally, I'd like to suggest that NPCs can act as a 'counterbalance'. So if there is a large supply of PC manufactured ships, perhaps NPCs could start demanding ships instead of supplying them? All of the above equally applies to ship equipment, blueprints, etc
Agent Shield	Posted - 2003.07.21 03:18:00 - [39] I think the market should be left alone. If 100 corps are making a widget, eventually some will drop out of manufacturing because of price competition; as the market should be. Let the market react to products on the market and their prices. Agent Shield
Isomerone	Posted - 2003.07.21 04:03:00 - [40] If there is going to be NPC supply then there should be NPC demand. After everyone has a battleship, there will be nothing left to produce for a profit.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.21 04:20:00 - [41] << If there is going to be NPC supply then there should be NPC demand. After everyone has a battleship, there will be nothing left to produce for a profit. >> So create a freebie market for items nobody needs? So manufacturers can make free isk? How about fixing the issue of nobody needing to replace any equipment except through loss? Because with your solution, the same people that outmanufacture you will beat you to the npc demand every day. Every time. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
nono	Posted - 2003.07.21 04:27:00 - [42] Think of it this way. If there was never an NPC demand for minerals at a set price what basis would you have for pricing anything? Take away the NPC demand for minerals and you would have items and ships selling for far less then they are now just to make money. To believe people would buy the minerals and produce is rediculous. They would mine, produce whatever and sell for whatever they could get. As it stands now the only thing propping it up is the demand for minerals from the NPC's. For the non believers you only need to look at the current situation. How many ships etc. sell for below NPC mineral value? They don't, and the cry is why are people selling for NEAR mineral value. The answer? Because they have no choice. Someone else will. All this was pointed out before live and shortly after release. You will only ever recover your "investment" if your first out of the gate before others get the BP. That or you produce for yourself and look at it that your investment was covered by what you would have saved by buying the item. Not very logical on much more then ammo as you are not going to need a ton of ships. Proof in this? Frigates made money for a week or two. Cruisers same deal. Battleships perhaps can hang on longer but trust me the price is going to drastically come down in time. People will undercut until its at the level of minerals. Someone here said prices should be half what NPC charge. I have no idea where that number came from but have a look at the prices for battleships now and compare where frigates and cruisers were when they first started being produced.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.21 05:15:00 - [43] << Someone here said prices should be half what NPC charge. I have no idea where that number came from but have a look at the prices for battleships now and compare where frigates and cruisers were when they first started being produced. >> I said it. It came from CCP. NPC buy for 1/2 the price intended if a player purchased the same product. And they sell for twice what they intend for a player to sell the same product. Which means minerals still have a lot of climbing to do pricewise. And ships can prolly stand to shave a few more points off if they hold to plan. The biggest issue is simply that 1 is enough. The only people losing ships are newbies and people that participate in PvP, short of server instability and bugs (like Concord). The NPCs present almost no risk beyond the first encounter. If the ships aren't getting destroyed, there's no new demand. The game needs wear and tear. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Lola	Posted - 2003.07.21 05:57:00 - [44] Wear and tear just sounds like a time sink to me. I'd take meanful reasons to PvP over a time sink any day. Imagine yourself mining for the minerals to build another battleship because CCP added item decay but no meanful PVP. How long will you continue to play? Now imagine yourself mining for the minerals to build another battleship because your corp is at war with another corp that has been trying to muscle in on your trade routes (or whatever). How long will this hold your interest? ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
Chagidiel	Posted - 2003.07.21 07:17:00 - [45] Agree. NPC:s should, at least stop producing ammunition. Then the ammunition market would work even better.
shaka	Posted - 2003.07.21 07:43:00 - [46] Agreed.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 08:44:00 - [47] Quote: Think of it this way. If there was never an NPC demand for minerals at a set price what basis would you have for pricing anything? The market works it out for itself. Consider; there are no guides for how much named pirate loot should be worth, but prices were rapidly established and those prices rapidly adjust as the supply of kit fluctuates when the loot tables are modified. Consider; real-life. No higher authority turns around and sets the price of cars or wheat or sugar or antiques or art. People figure out what to charge so they can make a reasonable profit, taking all things into account. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 21/07/2003 08:44:52
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 08:49:00 - [48] Quote: Take away the NPC demand for minerals and you would have items and ships selling for far less then they are now just to make money. This point has been raised I believe no less than three times in this thread and I have replied on each occasion pointing out that NPC demand for minerals is already entirely unrelated to NPC manufacturing and to assume I wish NPC mineral to be removed because I want NPC manufacturing to removed is incorrect. NPC mineral demand will stay as it is. Address your counter-arguments to the arguments I have made, rather than to arguments I have never thought of and have never said. -- Callas
Archemedes	Posted - 2003.07.21 10:15:00 - [49] Who EVER buys something at NPC prices if a player is making it? No one I know... NPC goods are there for one and only one reason: so certain needed items will always be available. Not every item is built regularly by players in every region. Should noobs have to fly all over the galaxy just to buy a civillian shield booster? How many of you are going to waste a factory slot making civillian shield boosters to sell to noobs? PC prices should NEVER reach NPC prices, so there's no reason to call NPC prices an artificial cap. Anything produced by NPCs is readily available as a blueprint, so if you try to jack up your price someone else will just buy a BP and undersell you. Professional manufacturers will have Production Efficiency and use researched BPs, so they can sell below MINERAL cost for someone with a stock BP and no PE skill and still make a profit. The idea that prices could EVER rise to NPC levels in that environment is laughable. In short, removing the NPC items would have no effect WHATSOEVER on people who build items, but would severely inconvenience new players looking for cheap starter gear that nobody bothers to sell publicly. The only way something could possibly sell for more than NPC cost would be if only a handful of people could make it. That would require BPs for that item to be rare, and NPCs wouldn't be selling something that required a rare drop BP anyway... Edited by: Archemedes on 21/07/2003 10:16:15 Edited by: Archemedes on 21/07/2003 10:17:41
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 11:20:00 - [50] Quote: Who EVER buys something at NPC prices if a player is making it? No one I know... However, the very fact that NPCs do make things makes it less likely that players will manufacture things. There is always a supply of all the basic kit, so even if players make nothing, demand for what they make can still be fufilled. I have on occasion bought bits of kit at NPC prices because I had a need - and given the amount of money most people have, the difference between the NPC and player price is pretty trivial. I have noted that players are producing less and less kit. There used to be stuff like small armour repairers everywhere. Now there appear to be only two or three systems selling PC kit. Of course, this is due mainly to BP copies and pirate kit being superior, but the existance of NPC manufactured kit means that player manufacturing can stop will no ill effects. If NPCs did not manufacture, the demand that NPCs meet would be redirected towards player manufacturers, which would help their market a little. Quote: NPC goods are there for one and only one reason: so certain needed items will always be available. Those items will be just as available if players make them as if NPC makes them, and it is far better that players make them, because NPCs distort the market; they don't care about supply and demand, profits, competition, etc. Quote: Not every item is built regularly by players in every region. Indeed not. But this is fine in and of itself. I don't expect to find a manufacturer of Bizzare-O-Tron mark I in Stain. Quote: Should noobs have to fly all over the galaxy just to buy a civillian shield booster? How many of you are going to waste a factory slot making civillian shield boosters to sell to noobs? If a profit can be made, a player will make the item. In particular, newbie start systems will be (and are) extremely well serviced because of the large number of players there. Please see a previous post where I explain in detail about the ease of supply and the weakness of demand. Quote: PC prices should NEVER reach NPC prices, so there's no reason to call NPC prices an artificial cap. Please see a previous post where I pointed out NPC prices were indeed a cap when manufacturing started, and that whether or not player prices will reach this limit, it is still an artificial limit and so should be removed. Quote: In short, removing the NPC items would have no effect WHATSOEVER on people who build items This is incorrect. If there is no NPC manufacturing, all player demand must be redirected towards player manufacturers. Clearly this will have an effect on players who manufacture. I think you assume no one buys NPC kit. This is not so in the first place. Much more important however is the effect the very existance of NPC kit has upon the market, since it means the player base as a whole can afford not to manufacture anything, since a supply is always available from NPCs; the entire player manufacuring base can go up in smoke and it just won't matter, because NPCs, with their infinite supply of kit at exactly the same price, fill the gap. That's bad - that's a serious, serious market distortion. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 21/07/2003 11:20:51
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 11:31:00 - [51] Quote: and the font? Every font in this thread looks the same to me, and is the one specified in my browser. I don't use font tags in my posts, so I suspect something is misconfigured in your browser or in your forum preference. -- Callas
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.07.21 11:36:00 - [52] Great, with no npc manufactors there isnt a set price for minerals. So bye bye isogen for 64 isk, bye bye 16 isk per mexallon.. It would mean the end of the market in EVE. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Yaeger	Posted - 2003.07.21 13:01:00 - [53] Dreamworks: Haven't you been reading the topic? Let me take some of the workload off Callas, NPC manufacturing is NOT related to NPC mineral demand. I personally think Callas is wrong in that we shouldn't remove npc mineral demand (we should) but, once again, NPC mineral demand and manufacturing have no effect on each other. "I think we all need to train spelling" "I need typing lvl 2 first, though" - Help Channel, "Now you guys can flame me. Ready..... GO!"
Barl Rathbone	Posted - 2003.07.21 13:13:00 - [54] I would like to see MORE mineral demand from NPC to try to get people moving away from the starter systems. NPC prices should be fairly uncompetitive but should still be worth selling to. PS Callas - your font is huge on my work PC and home PC. Neither of which have large fonts and I have never touched my board preferences.
Adrenalin	Posted - 2003.07.21 13:20:00 - [55] Once higher level PC equipment is released (ie: Tech Level 2-5, Reverse Engineering) there will be a demand for player production. The produced PC goods will be equal to or better than 'most' of the NPC drops (with exception of special or super rare items). Currently PC manufacturers only have tech one, which is absolute garbage (hence why the NPC market sells it). Its newbie gear to get you off the ground to get better stuff. Just hold out and things will get better.
Xelios	Posted - 2003.07.21 13:24:00 - [56] Callas's font is slightly smaller than normal on my browser (Opera), but still the same font as all the writing on this page.
Barl Rathbone	Posted - 2003.07.21 13:25:00 - [57] It does make sense for NPC only to produced tech 1. However I forsee a stampede for Tech 2 BP's so hopefully they will be plenfitul !
Cachorro Louco	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:03:00 - [58] All I got to say to this is: If the NPC production gets turned off then turn it off GRADUALLY! Don't go hitting the off switch in one fell swoop. Do it over a week or two period. Mad Dog says: Bet I'm the only true Reverend in the game. It says so on the printout I got from an Internet site.
Lola	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:08:00 - [59] The font issue is with quoting. For some reason the board software increases the font size when people quote. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
nono	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:14:00 - [60] Quote: Several in this thread " NPC mineral demand and manufacturing have no effect on each other." NPC mineral demand is directly related to PC manufacturing and prices.(fact) NPC mineral demand has no effect on NPC manufacturing.(fact) Is that better Callas? Without the standard prices of minerals set by NPC's, manufacturers would have nothing to gauge the prices on. Manufacturers stop making product when the price is drivin to the value of the minerals. Why manfacture something and wait for it to sell when you can get your money by selling the minerals. Nothing else is more realted to PC prices in this game as the demand for manufactured goods is just not there. Even if there was endless demand the prices would not climb. People would continue to undersell their competition just to make the sale. That or sell the minerals and not manufacture at all. As to the hidden agenda of this thread (you always have one) I can't seem to see it, other then maybe you have now diverted your attention to manufacturing and you want to instill some change so that YOU can sell. Is this another way of saying " Nobody is buying my stuff so something HAS to change". Remember you only post having just discovered something that affects you. Take away all NPC manufactured goods and what do we have? Cheaper prices then anything the NPC's ever charged. NPC prices were the first to be undercut followed by players undercutting each other down to NPC mineral prices. Mass BP copies, basic item loot drops, no quality loss on items leading to rebuilding or repurchase. are all good arguments. I see nothing to call for the halt of NPC items on the market, noone buys them anyway. As for the font? It's how he quotes. It's the way the forum generates the font. Obviously it can be worked around by simply Quoting "---" but some people need to compensate for things.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:35:00 - [61] Quote: Great, with no npc manufactors there isnt a set price for minerals. So bye bye isogen for 64 isk, bye bye 16 isk per mexallon.. It would mean the end of the market in EVE. This point has been raised and delt with four times in this thread. PLEASE read previous posts. -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:36:00 - [62] Quote: PS Callas - your font is huge on my work PC and home PC. Neither of which have large fonts and I have never touched my board preferences. Wierd. Looks normal to me. Anyone else getting a large font on my posts? -- Callas
Jojin	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:39:00 - [63] Callas, Yes your posts are huge. It is because of the Quote you are using. If you just copy and paste the item to which you are referring, no one will have an augmented version of the font size.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:47:00 - [64] Quote: Quote: Several in this thread " NPC mineral demand and manufacturing have no effect on each other." NPC mineral demand is directly related to PC manufacturing and prices.(fact) NPC mineral demand has no effect on NPC manufacturing.(fact) Is that better Callas? Erm... Well, you don't say who wrote those things, and I don't recall anyone who knows what they're talking about saying NPC manufacturing dictates NPC mineral demand, so I don't think your assertations are correct. It's a bit like quoting a rabid anti-semetic as an authority on Jewish history - he'll make statements, none of which will be correct. Morevoer, what exactly are you getting at? You've quoted one person saying NPC manufacturing and demand are related, and one quote saying they are not. What exactly is your point here? Quote: Without the standard prices of minerals set by NPC's, manufacturers would have nothing to gauge the prices on. You said this in your previous post. I counter-argued in my reply. You have not quoted or responded to that reply, you have simply restated your original post. The cost of a player kit is determined by the cost of the minerals, the time and effort involved in manufacturing and the need for a reasonable profit. NPC prices are not required for this, as can be seen from the fact that PC prices are very different to NPC prices. The only affect NPC prices has is to set an upper limit on PC prices. Quote: Nothing else is more realted to PC prices in this game as the demand for manufactured goods is just not there. Even if there was endless demand the prices would not climb. People would continue to undersell their competition just to make the sale. That or sell the minerals and not manufacture at all. I'm afraid I have no idea what you're getting at here. Quote: As to the hidden agenda of this thread (you always have one) Weird, dude. Seriously far-out paranoid wierd. Quote: As for the font? It's how he quotes. It's the way the forum generates the font. Obviously it can be worked around by simply Quoting "---" but some people need to compensate for things. Oh yeah. I need to compensate for my inadequacy by using the " Quote: " tag. Absolutely. I'm afraid you have now entered my do-not-reply-to-list. You are too detached from reality, and insult me too much. -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:49:00 - [65] Quote: Callas, Yes your posts are huge. It is because of the Quote you are using. If you just copy and paste the item to which you are referring, no one will have an augmented version of the font size. It's a forum bug, I think. Browser specific too. I use Firebird, and it's fine. I don't want to just cut-and-paste because that's a poor way to quote material. I appreciate however that quote is broken (probably on IE, I imagine). -- Callas
Jojin	Posted - 2003.07.21 14:55:00 - [66] It is nice to see you are considerate and flexible to assist those who are using browsers where the Quote tag is causing problems. Oh wait, never mind I misread your post.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 15:25:00 - [67] Quote: It is nice to see you are considerate and flexible to assist those who are using browsers where the Quote tag is causing problems. Oh wait, never mind I misread your post. Really? but I thought the font was huge - surely that helped? ;) I've checked the source for the page. The problem I suspect is this malformed element; <font size= face="" id=quote> The size is not specified, and IE uses a ridiculous default - so two lots of buggy software; the forum and IE. Note absence of gasps of surprise :) I would hope you can configure IE to use a client side style sheet when it renders pages (you can in Firebird, and Mozilla, and have been able to for a long time). You need to create a CSS document. It's a text file containing the following; FONT.quote { font-size=small } Then configure IE to use this style sheet (which will be somewhere in the preferences - I don't use IE, so I don't know where). However, there is a chance this might not work, since it requires the CLASS attribute to be set, but the forum uses the deprecated ID attribute. -- Callas
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.21 15:27:00 - [68] """The cost of a player kit is determined by the cost of the minerals, the time and effort involved in manufacturing and the need for a reasonable profit.""" The one thing you are missing Callas is CCP bases what they consider to be normal income off of mineral prices. (NPC) In the patch notes for the agent patch, Pann states, ""Rebalanced agent rewards. The average a 1st level mission should provide about the same reward as the equivalent time spent mining veldspar for a relatively new character, which has been evaluated at 300 ISK per player minute. Agent missions were previously running at 70 ISK per minute. Rewards generally double per agent level.""" So appearently there is a need for NPCs to buy items, (minerals at least). CCP, and most people who produce items use the NPC buy/sell price as a baseline on which to base their prices. Inotherwords how do you know iso is worth 64 isk each? If there were no NPC buy/sell orders, the market would crash completely. In the last few weeks the price of a new thorax has gone from 10 mil or so, to less than 6 mil. There are 2 reasons for this, manufacturing effecicy/research lowers the actual mineral cost to build items, and the player price of minerals. I can go to any n00bish system and buy nox for 170, iso for 45-50 ect. If each mineral costs less, the cost of items falls so people can undercut their compititors(sp) prices. If you remove NPCs prices could go the other way. You want AP ammo, you have to pay my price or you don't get any. Same for selling minerals, I am the only one buying, so you have to take 4 isk for mega or travel to find someone who pays more. The market is broken...too many people doing the same things. There is little PC demand for items, due to drops being so much better. In most games DAoC for example, player made items are ALWAYS better than what you can find. In Eve they got it backwards. So if you really want to make a petition that might actually fix something, how about asking for tech 2 items to be better than loot drops? This way 'good' toons can buy the high quality stuff, smugglers can smuggle them out to 0.0 space so pks can buy them too. This may also shut-up those who claim pirates (PC) need to be removed. This way you can go toe-to-toe with them with better equipment and maybe win. Instead of whine.
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 17:40:00 - [69] Quote: The one thing you are missing Callas is CCP bases what they consider to be normal income off of mineral prices. (NPC) In the patch notes for the agent patch, Pann states, ""Rebalanced agent rewards. The average a 1st level mission should provide about the same reward as the equivalent time spent mining veldspar for a relatively new character, which has been evaluated at 300 ISK per player minute. Agent missions were previously running at 70 ISK per minute. Rewards generally double per agent level.""" So appearently there is a need for NPCs to buy items, (minerals at least). CCP, and most people who produce items use the NPC buy/sell price as a baseline on which to base their prices. Inotherwords how do you know iso is worth 64 isk each? If there were no NPC buy/sell orders, the market would crash completely. For the fifth time in this thread, I hereby state that NPC demand for minerals is entirely unrelated to NPC manufacturing. The ceasation of NPC manufacuring will have NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on NPC mineral demand. Quote: In the last few weeks the price of a new thorax has gone from 10 mil or so, to less than 6 mil. There are 2 reasons for this, manufacturing effecicy/research lowers the actual mineral cost to build items, and the player price of minerals. I can go to any n00bish system and buy nox for 170, iso for 45-50 ect. If each mineral costs less, the cost of items falls so people can undercut their compititors(sp) prices. Erm...if mineral prices fall, all prices fall. Undercutting does not occur, because everyone is affected in exactly the same way. Moreover, this assumes a change in mineral prices which will not happen, so the argument incorrect in the first instance. Quote: If you remove NPCs prices could go the other way. You want AP ammo, you have to pay my price or you don't get any. Same for selling minerals, I am the only one buying, so you have to take 4 isk for mega or travel to find someone who pays more. Prices would only begin to rise in the way you suggest if players held a monopoly in production and could therefore sell at the highest price the richest bidder could pay. It is absolutely clear that the player manufacturing market does not permit a monopoly to occur - anyone and his dog can get a BP and manufacture. If NPCs no longer produced any equipment, I would expect to see an increase in demand for player kit, which will most likely make no difference to the market because the market is probably over-supplied at the moment. The same is true for ships, but the impact will be negligable in that market since demand is so much stronger in the first place, since there is no supply of superior pirate ships leading people to avoid buying regular ships. -- Callas Edited by: Callas on 21/07/2003 17:46:36
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.07.21 17:55:00 - [70] Not that the original plans or stated intentions of the game are worth the glowing pixels beaming the information to your eyes.... but does ANYONE even remember that, prerelease, the market was talked about this player-run and driven thing we'd all be doing ourselves...? And oh yeah as an afterthought, "don't worry, there will be some NPC corps producing and demanding stuff to jumpstart the economy until the playerbase gets on its feet." What we have now is the opposite. Hello?!?! You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Lao Tzu	Posted - 2003.07.21 17:57:00 - [71] Callas, stop using the buggy quote ffs.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.21 18:48:00 - [72] For the love of Peter, Paul and Mary: STOP USING THE FRIGGIN QUOTES, CALLAS I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.07.21 18:59:00 - [73] ye gods it turns up as font size 7!! [Heterocephalus glaber]
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.07.21 19:00:00 - [74] Well, i think it's safe to say we can thank Callas for the forum fix that just retroactively made all his posts a normal size. Admit it, without his stubborn use of the thing and the public outcry, it mighta gone slower. Plus i have to admit i see the side of "just because your crappy Micro$haft browser blows chunks why should my life be harder?" and you all woulda done the same, admit it. And now we have all these silly things to play with, too You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Alexandre Kelenthoris	Posted - 2003.07.21 19:56:00 - [75] Wow. This is interesting to say the least. I just spent the better half of 20 minutes reading this entire thread. And perhaps I am losing my mind, but it seems that the many people posting on this thread are on completely different pages.... I would, however, like to make one point. As Callas has repeatedly alluded to, a free market WILL develop, grow, and prosper once all artificial factors affecting it are removed. This includes NPC manufacturing, NPC mineral purchasing, etc... External forces working on the market that are not vulnerable to market control will distort everything. Government subsidies for agriculture in the US is a great example. However, without some pre-existing market in EVE, how could anyone establish themselves and/or start a business? The question, as I see it, is not "How do we fix the market?" but "when do we fix the market?" Clearly, a market is driven by consumer demand for products. Do we have enough players / buyers? If so, then remove those initial NPC structures (appropriately initiated to jump-start some sort of economy) and allow player interaction to take over the free market. Prices will stabilize themselves. Producers will manufacture. I gaurantee you that someone will build and sell a "civillian shield booster" once no NPC is manufacturing it anymore. Some players will "freak out" and be unable to handle the rapid change. A smart player or corp CEO, however, should welcome the change.... -- Alex
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2003.07.21 20:48:00 - [76] Quote: Some players will "freak out" and be unable to handle the rapid change. A smart player or corp CEO, however, should welcome the change.... An intelligent, adaptive, creative player should have no problem with the current system as it is ... However for a more dynamic and diverse market - the NPC role does indeed require significant tweaking, but if anything demand (in particular for minerals) should be dramatically increased ... MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.21 20:56:00 - [77] << Prices will* stabilize themselves. Producers will manufacture. I gaurantee you that someone will build and sell a "civillian shield booster" once no NPC is manufacturing it anymore.* >> The NPCs establish a price ceiling. One for which I'm glad is there. I've seen what the manufacturers will charge when they have an exclusive and no price ceiling. Returning to the "2.5 million isk for a Rifter" is not the direction anyone wants to go. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:01:00 - [78] Edited by: Callas on 21/07/2003 21:02:18 Quote: The NPCs establish a price ceiling. One for which I'm glad is there. I've seen what the manufacturers will charge when they have an exclusive and no price ceiling. Returning to the "2.5 million isk for a Rifter" is not the direction anyone wants to go. This argument is entirely spurious. The market simply does not work in this manner. The price of an item is set by the supply of the item - how much it costs in time, money and skill to produce - and the demand for that item. If the supply is limited and the demand very great, as it was at the start of the game when manufacturing first began, then prices will be very high since a great profit will be added to the price necessary to cover the cost of construction. But BECAUSE there is such a large profit, many other people will begin to produce that item. This of course leads to an increase in supply and a drop in prices. To wit, see the entire progress of the player market in ships since the start of the game. -- Callas
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:03:00 - [79] "I've seen what the manufacturers will charge when they have an exclusive and no price ceiling." Can you have the exclusive for any production in Eve as it is now, though?..
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:05:00 - [80] NO MMORPG's ECONOMY SHOULD COMPLETELY DEPENDS ON PLAYERS. IT WILL SIMPLY RUIN THE GAME. NO ONE WANT TO BE COMPLETELY USELESS IF OTHERS ARE NOT ONLINE. THE BASE IDEA IS IF YOU ARE IN A REGION WITH MINIMUM PLAYERS, YOU STILL NEED EQUIPMENTS. IF YOU CAN NOT PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE OTHERS ARE NOT ONLINE, THEN THE GAME WILL BE DEAD.
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:05:00 - [81] Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 21/07/2003 21:05:57 double posts, please delete this one.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:05:00 - [82] Quote: This argument is entirely spurious. The market simply does not work in this manner. The price of an item is set by the supply of the item - how much it costs in time, money and skill to produce - and the demand for that item. If the supply is limited and the demand very great, as it was at the start of the game when manufacturing first began, then prices will be very high since a great profit will be added to the price necessary to cover the cost of construction. But BECAUSE there is such a large profit, many other people will begin to produce that item. This of course leads to an increase in supply and a drop in prices. To wit, see the entire progress of the player market in ships since the start of the game. -- Callas Which is why I see no reason for this sudden hail to remove the npc items from the market. If nobody is nearing the price ceiling, give me a single good reason why it should be removed. I can give you an excellent reason why it shouldn't be removed: It's an excellent indicator of where a potential market is. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Singular	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:10:00 - [83] lol go ahead and delete the other one while you are at it =] You dont have to be online to buy/sell things... I havent read through all the posts yet, but has anyone mentioned the horrific inflation in ISK prices if this occurs? The only ISK being brought in will be by bounty hunters, and agent-runners. Im Yo Huckleberreh
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:25:00 - [84] Quote: Can you have the exclusive for any production in Eve as it is now, though?.. Currently, no. But hopefully CCP will distribute future technologies correctly which would create some exclusives. The only problem I see is they'll pooch it. The NPCs should carry some stock of tech level 2 items, for example. Not the blueprints but a SMALL supply of the items. That would: Create a supply that enterprising traders could use for cross market distribution Provide a source of items for reverse engineering attempts, giving researchers a shot at the money pot set a price ceiling for manufacturers when they do aquire the blueprints while still allowing the potential for sales above market price (limited supplies can be bought out) I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Drutort	Posted - 2003.07.21 21:57:00 - [85] here is an IDEA... how about have the BP copies get worse as you copy them!! and have a limit on how many you can copy... dont ask me why... but it would help this game out a bit ;) really the limit of copying a bp and it getting worse is stupid BUT it would fix the problems we have in a way... I guess more ppl will just go and buy originals :\| i really dont konw how things can be fixed... how about making less places to copy bp's? or factory slots? in some areas... so that those who make a lot will have to haul them to some areas were there are a lot of fighters say killing npc's or something and they would hve to go who knows how far for a manufactoring or research slot.. but they could have a station and buy ammo from players or some npc's? i think my third idea is better of restricting factory/labs in more lower sec or other areas that have good pirates or good ore... making a demand for people who do have factories far away and also making a demand for haulers :) they should put stations more in lower sec but they should have nothing more but repairs and fiting and a market :) and that bounty thing... maybe some should have the recycling... but no labs/factories support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.07.21 22:05:00 - [86] Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 21/07/2003 22:07:26 Doesn't matter you can sell items offline or not. If the whole echonomy depends on players, then the game will be dead. when I first heard about "player rebuild the world" thing for ac2 before even the beta begun, I knew ac2 would be dead in no time after release. Time told me I was right.
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.21 23:14:00 - [87] Welp guess Callas wins this arguement, I CAN'T READ THE FRIGGIN REPLIES BECAUSE YOU STILL USE THE BROKEN QUOTE ASPECT OF THESE FORUMS. Good lord man no one else uses them for A REASON. But once again you prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong. The font is normal size on your machine so it is our fault. The only part I could read of your replies was in reference to NPC mineral Demand. NPCs only buy XXXX amount of a mineral. So thier price holds and supports the mineral market only until their demand is exhausted. Once that happens (buy orders your HATED enemy ;) ) take over and the price falls. Anyone in ANY FORM of economics class knows that supply and demand determines price. Even if you remove npc producers, there are still too many PC producers out there. And my comment about mineral prices was taken out of context. If there is no NPCs buying, no one knows for sure what the price should be. The remark about minerals was an example. Since everyone knows iso is worth 64 isk, nox 256 ect. How do you know that a thorax is worth 10mil? The way it is calculated by anyone I know is npc mineral price X amount of minerals + fraction of BP cost(or profit it you prefer) = open market sale price. It has been stated many times in this thread, that no one buys from NPCs due to their prices being high. Remember lower price sell orders will over run the higher NPC prices. Your arguement as it stands now doesn't hold water. Do you seriously believe that and NPC is stealing your profit? It's prolly that same individual who stole your robotics trade route that ticked you off before. In closing, you always want people to back up their points of view, yet you give NO proof that your idea will fix ANYTHING. Simply stating that your idea will work, and the arguements against it won't is NOT and I repeat NOT proof. You have quoted yourself more times than I care to count. You would make a great polititian. You talk in circles, and use asinine arguements to prove your point. Then when you are cornered, you say infacitly that you are right and everyone else is wrong. *The reason that manufactureing isn't a good way to make money is there is no risk of losing a ship, so why buy another? The weapons that can be manufactured are sub par compared to loot drops. And for every item out there, there are lots of manufacturers trying to get their order on top. (lower price shows on map, it covers the higher one. Something you still seem not to grasp since you blame NPCs for taking the market.) *And Idea to fix the problem. (something you have yet to offer save your original whin...post) Lower the quality of loot drops to less than what can be manufactured. Bring in tech 2 and keep loot drops less than their effectiveness. Remove BP copying. (Still let people research them, maybe lead to tech 2 items...) or as someone else said, a bp copy isn't as good as an original. Costs more to make, less effective ect.
Nibarlan	Posted - 2003.07.22 05:17:00 - [88] I agree, I'd like to start making more money from manufactoring and selling, than selling the un manufactored materials ----------------------------------------------- In space no one can hear you scream...unless you scream on the radio, then everybody on that channel can hear you...but only if your in a ship, because they wouldn't hear you if you were in space and screamed into the radio -----------------------------------------------
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.22 08:56:00 - [89] Quote: Welp guess Callas wins this arguement, I CAN'T READ THE FRIGGIN REPLIES BECAUSE YOU STILL USE THE BROKEN QUOTE ASPECT OF THESE FORUMS. Surprising - I thought they'd been fixed. The HTML generated by the forum now correctly specifies a font size, although it's still broken in that if you quote the smaller font size used for the quoted material also affects the new material, which ought to be normal font size. Quote: Good lord man no one else uses them for A REASON. But once again you prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong. The font is normal size on your machine so it is our fault. You're being a ****. All I've posted on the matter is an explaination of why the font size problem occurs (broken HTML generation from the forum, broken IE behaviour) and then the next day, a minor forum upgrade occured and for at least some people - but not you? - the problem has been fixed. -- Callas
Tharrn	Posted - 2003.07.22 09:12:00 - [90] Is the NPC supply really a problem? I think we can generally divide equipment into two categories: Equipment that sells and equipment that doesn't. Who in his right mind would buy 75mm Gattling Rails for example after spending ten seconds of research? Stuff like that is not manufactured by players for a reason (no profit in selling two units per week). On the other hand you have equipment like Miner Is, who sell like fresh applepie in newbie systems. I was one of the first selling them in my region - NPC price is well beyond 10k (16 I believe...has been a while). I started selling them at about 10k and within one week more and more manufacturers swarmed the market leading to the current devastatingly low price of below 3k (that was the point I stopped manufacturing them). Who in his right mind will buy any NPC manufactured Miner I then if he doesn't happen to be in a godforsaken corner of the universe anyways?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.22 09:20:00 - [91] Quote: Who in his right mind will buy any NPC manufactured Miner I then if he doesn't happen to be in a godforsaken corner of the universe anyways? Callas doesn't get this point. Not only is the NPC price ceiling never going to be touched the minute a person gets a blueprint for the item (the first person will normally set their price 1 isk under initially so their supply shows up in the market). But he wants to eliminate one of the few clear indicators of an exploitable market. If I scan the market tables and see someone paying NPC price, that means someone in that region isn't meeting the demand. And that means the potential for sales. Dunno why I'm bothering to tell him this. Should just keep quiet as it means 1 less effective manufacturer (though I ain't givin out no more freebies) I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Rhonstet	Posted - 2003.07.22 13:50:00 - [92] Anyone who thinks that the economy would fail if production would turn over to PCs is clearly not paying attention to Star Wars Galaxies. If there is a demand, someone will find a way to fill it. Having police units be NPC-controlled is both unfortunate and unavoidable, as mechanisms for PCs to join and work for major government institutions is non-existant beyond bounty rewards. Maybe someday, as players of more honest standing rise to prominence and fame, it's possible. But I wouldn't count on it. But the manufacturing system works. To be sure, some markets are saturated to the point at which you can buy a top-of-the-line cruiser for 6 million, but that's the fault either of manufacturer overproduction or miners digging too much Isogen. What I can't figure out for the life of me is, why are NPC corporations self-sufficient? I find it difficult to believe that outsourcing and contractors, some of us who have some very impressive skill sets, can't do things cheaper then Concord. So why are players being denied that content? Is there a reason why CCP is limiting the player actions by saying NPCs can provide for their own manufacturing? The Monkeysphere
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.22 14:44:00 - [93] Edited by: Callas on 22/07/2003 14:44:46 Quote: Callas doesn't get this point. Not only is the NPC price ceiling never going to be touched the minute a person gets a blueprint for the item (the first person will normally set their price 1 isk under initially so their supply shows up in the market). I think you're waaay ahead of me on the "don't get it" sweepstakes. Consider; I've said the NPC price is an artificial limit. You've said it won't matter, because the first person to sell will sell one ISK below the NPC price. THAT MEANS IT'S AN ARTIFICIAL LIMIT! If there were no NPC price limit the player would sell at the price the market would bear, rather than at the artificial NPC price limit. The very example you've given to show that the NPC price limit is irrelevent exactly and perfectly highlights the operation of the NPC price limit and how it affects the market! -- Callas
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.22 15:20:00 - [94] Quote: think you're waaay ahead of me on the "don't get it" sweepstakes. Consider; I've said the NPC price is an artificial limit. You've said it won't matter, because the first person to sell will sell one ISK below the NPC price. THAT MEANS IT'S AN ARTIFICIAL LIMIT! If there were no NPC price limit the player would sell at the price the market would bear, rather than at the artificial NPC price limit. The very example you've given to show that the NPC price limit is irrelevent exactly and perfectly highlights the operation of the NPC price limit and how it affects the market! -- Callas No, you're still pretty much the one that doesn't get it. That's what happens when the 1st person gets a blueprint. When the 2nd one gets a blueprint, they usually begin undercutting the first and the cycle begins. Tell me, what item's blueprint do you have an exclusive on with only the npc as your competitor? And that people are buying? I'll note that your complete dodging of the npc supply being used as a market indicator to mean you really can't debate that one. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Tharrn	Posted - 2003.07.22 15:31:00 - [95] Items that don't sell don't sell - the limit doesn't matter. Items that do sell sell for production cost + a minimal markup as there's so much competition. This won't change as long as everyone and his dog can manufacture everything with Industry 1. I can't see how this artificial upper limit matters :/
nono	Posted - 2003.07.22 16:00:00 - [96] Edited by: nono on 22/07/2003 16:09:14 Edited by: nono on 22/07/2003 16:08:53 " I can't see how this artificial upper limit matters :/ " It obviously doesn't matter. Find the hidden agenda this post was started for, by the master spinner himself, and perhaps you will find what matters to him. ""I'll note that your complete dodging of the npc supply being used as a market indicator to mean you really can't debate that one."" Classic! As is this reply. """In closing, you always want people to back up their points of view, yet you give NO proof that your idea will fix ANYTHING. Simply stating that your idea will work, and the arguements against it won't is NOT and I repeat NOT proof. You have quoted yourself more times than I care to count. You would make a great polititian. You talk in circles, and use asinine arguements to prove your point. Then when you are cornered, you say infacitly that you are right and everyone else is wrong.""" Can I be called a **** too? Oh wait thats right------------ """"Wierd, dude. I don't arbitrarily insult people. Why are you saying that I do, and that you expect this to happen? it's disturbing and insulting.""""
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.22 16:05:00 - [97] Quote: Consider; I've said the NPC price is an artificial limit. You've said it won't matter, because the first person to sell will sell one ISK below the NPC price. THAT MEANS IT'S AN ARTIFICIAL LIMIT! If there were no NPC price limit the player would sell at the price the market would bear, rather than at the artificial NPC price limit. So since everyone who sells an item, sets it's price at 1 isk less than the NPC price...what's the point to removing them? Seems to me this is the best way to set-up the prices for items. BTW you haven't made any comment on my opinion as to the real problems with the market. Does that mean you actually agree? And since the NPC prices don't show (as you me and half the people here have said) why bother to remove them? On the off chance that a n00b needs an item that isn't currently being produced by PCs (lots of goofy items that are needed for agent missions aren't produced. Civ shield anyone?) why not let NPCs stay? And I am sorry for the rant about the quote bug. I use IE (UGH!) and it really messed things up BAD last time. It seems to work now, so I am sorry for the rant Callas.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.07.22 16:32:00 - [98] - don¦t think that stopping NPC-manufacturing/supply of items would help the market. The NPC market actually does a pretty good job in equipping new players with what they need. The actualy player market is borked for several other reasons: 1. Unlimited BP copying. It simply kills the market. Additionally I think that BPs are still way too cheap. Yes, even the battleship BPs are way too cheap. 2. Non-existant tech research. How are we supposed to compete in manufaturing and sale when we aren¦t able to improve the items we sell in any way? The point is that with all player-manufactured items being exactly the same there can be no market competition. What will happen / has already happened is that manufacturers will lower their prices until the lowest possible price has been reached... and that is the cost of the minerals to produce the item. At this point it¦s of course worthless to produce items to sell them on the market, so you start using your BPs to copy them and sell the copies. With unlimited copying of BPs you get a much bigger profit there... but the market itself is dead. With only manufacturing-time and mineral-efficiency on BPs you don¦t achieve any argument for a customer to pay more for that Vexor cruiser than he would pay at someone else. Improved shields, bigger caps and so on would however be an argument and they would enable manufaturers to actually compete while making a profit. Another point here is that with tech-research pirate-looting would become more and more unimportant. People would start to pay more for player manufactured stuff since they can get elite-items for reasonable prices in masses. That of course requires that tech-researched items can become as good as/better than lootdrops. 3. NPC-looting. It¦s simple: Why pay for something when you can get better stuff for free? That¦s exactly what Pirate-looting does, it gives you elite items for free. That in turn is a reason for the manufacturers to concentrate on other things like... pirate-looting :/ We only have basic BPs, we can¦t produce elite items. Additionally pirates drop that elite stuff for free so there¦s no point in starting to manufacture anything besides ships, and even the ship-prices went down to values insignificantly higher thast mineral cost. Mai's Idealog
Cro Ramel	Posted - 2003.07.22 18:38:00 - [99] Yeah lets turn of NPC sellers, sounds like a great idea. Lets turn off NPC buyers too, I mean players will buy high for trade goods that do nothing right? And other players will sell the same goods for low cost as well. No need to mine minerals for money either, NPC standard cost for minerals is crap! NPC corps either mine their own or buy for the minerals for the great price of half the NPC cost. I never liked buying shuttles to move my indy and ship into the same system, I see lots of players making those to sell to the public. (its called sarcasm people) "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is."
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.22 20:18:00 - [100] Edited by: Callas on 22/07/2003 20:22:31 Quote: So since everyone who sells an item, sets it's price at 1 isk less than the NPC price...what's the point to removing them? Because if the NPC price wasn't there, the price chosen would not be one ISK less than the NPC price. It would be the price which reflects the actual value of the item. Quote: Seems to me this is the best way to set-up the prices for items. It's not. It's utterly crazy. What it actually is is a dev going "I think this item is worth this from an NPC", and that price being the maximum price for an item, set in stone, for the rest of eternity. How would you think of it if a dev came along, into the trade channel, and said "right, you lot - you must all sell CU vapours now for 25m each". It's crazy. What about supply and demand? This isn't quite the same problem as the NPC pricing problem, but it does illustrate the point. You must read up on some economics if you're going to continue debating this, because what I'm explaining here truely is the A-B-C of economics and it is not possible to debate a subject if the absolute fundamentals of that subject are not understood. I'm not debating with you now - I can see exactly where you're going wrong and why, and I'm trying to teach you enough economics so that you can see it too. Quote: BTW you haven't made any comment on my opinion as to the real problems with the market. Does that mean you actually agree? I'm not sure I recall reading such stuff. If you made comments about the real problems being BP copying and named pirate loot, then I'd point you to the three or four posts I've made where I've said that to a bunch of other people, and then gone on to explain why it's still right to get rid of NPC production. -- Callas
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.22 20:21:00 - [101] Quote: I'd point you to the three or four posts I've made where I've said that to a bunch of other people, and then gone on to explain why it's still right to get rid of NPC production. Callas, just do me a single favor: Explain a single benefit of removing a useless ceiling over the disadvantage of losing a clear market indicator. That's all. Tell my what benefit is worth losing such a clear sign of an market opportunity. Or is that your real purpose? To remove the indicator so others can't tell where there's a possible market? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.22 20:22:00 - [102] Quote: Yeah lets turn of NPC sellers, sounds like a great idea. Okay, so it's sarcasm, I understand this; but first, we're talking about the idea the thread is about. Get rid of NPC equipment sellers. Quote: Lets turn off NPC buyers too, I mean players will buy high for trade goods that do nothing right? But now...we're talking about a totally different idea which no one else has mentioned, not once, at all. Quote: And other players will sell the same goods for low cost as well. No need to mine minerals for money either, NPC standard cost for minerals is crap! NPC corps either mine their own or buy for the minerals for the great price of half the NPC cost. I never liked buying shuttles to move my indy and ship into the same system, I see lots of players making those to sell to the public. And the rest of the rant appears to be a wierd dismissal of this "turn off the buyers" idea which...has been made up by the poster. Quote: (its called sarcasm people) "If it sounds like a bad idea, it is." Sounds like a completely insane post to me. You fabricated a suggestion and then sarcastically explained why it was awful. I have a feeling you probably talk to yourself, and that I'd hate to hear those conversations. -- Callas
Callas	Posted - 2003.07.22 20:33:00 - [103] Quote: Callas, just do me a single favor: Explain a single benefit of removing a useless ceiling over the disadvantage of losing a clear market indicator. Note that it is quite wrong to call NPC prices "a clear market indicator". They are no such thing; they are someone in the market selling at that price. An indicator does not affect the market, an indicator is merely a record of what the market is doing or has done. As for the rest, I am not going to explain again. I have explained in several posts, several times, in this thread, what the advantages are. I can point you at those posts and say - there are the reasons why. I have to say, you are in the same position as some others in this thread. You must learn some economics to debate these matters - we are not debating the suggestion that I've made, but rather we are engaged in an educational process trying to correct fundmanetal lack of knowledge of the subject in hand. It may be what I have suggested is wrong, but none of the points that have been presented in this thread have truely discussed what I have said and so no actual debate has occured, for each and every point raised has stemmed from a lack of comprehension of the fundamentals of economics. I have spent this thread trying to teach you and others the A-B-C of economics and I have failed, which isn't too surprising; this is hardly the medium for education. Actually, I've spent a little bit of time in this thread boggling at how whacked out nono is...he would have gone down a storm in the McCarthy era. "Callas ALWAYS has an ulterior motive...I just can't work out what it is right now". I'd hate to see his pillow in the morning. We're talking inches of drool, people. -- Callas
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.22 20:39:00 - [104] Quote: Note that it is quite wrong to call NPC prices "a clear market indicator". They are no such thing; they are someone in the market selling at that price. An indicator does not affect the market, an indicator is merely a record of what the market is doing or has done. As for the rest, I am not going to explain again. I have explained in several posts, several times, in this thread, what the advantages are. I can point you at those posts and say - there are the reasons why. I didn't say rehash the whole list. Just a single one would do. But you seem to keep dodging. And yes, it is a clear market indicator. It says quite clearly if goods are being bought at npc price, then the demand in that location isn't being met by players. If you can't figure out how to take advantage of that, that's your bother. Except I think that you have and want it removed. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.22 21:25:00 - [105] """I've said the NPC price is an artificial limit. You've said it won't matter, because the first person to sell will sell one ISK below the NPC price. THAT MEANS IT'S AN ARTIFICIAL LIMIT! If there were no NPC price limit the player would sell at the price the market would bear, rather than at the artificial NPC price limit.""" Ok so lets look at this reply. 1) The NPC sets the price say 100 isk for a civ shield booster. 2)A PC decides to make them, and puts a sell order for 99isk. From that point on the NPC prices means nothing because the price everyone sees is now 99isk for a civ booster. The next person puts his sell order for 98 isk. Now his is the only order that is visible. Someone buys all of the boosters for 98, the sell orders for 99 are now seen. My point is once someone ANYONE buys a BP of an item, the NPC price is now no longer in use. However it does give that person a place to start. You say they would place an order the market can bear...How do you know what it can bear? The NPCs give us a good place to start. A 'baseline' if you will. You can take the cost of minerals needed and add in a small profit...however for those starting out, their sell price has to be higher than someone with higher skills, for the simple fact they have to use more minerals to produce the same item. But with the NPCs in there everyone has a good idea of what an item is worth. At the same time, some items like the civ shield booster, are not and will most likely never be produced by a PC. So if there are no NPCs selling them, how can we have agent missions? CCP would have to constantly change their agent code to keep it current with the PC market. By the same token, a PC only market opens up the door to griefing. If no one makes civ shield boosters and I know they are used in agent missions, I can make a few and sell them for 100% profit, because people need them for missions, but no one produces them cept me. At the same time if we forget all of that, the FIRST person who buys a BP removes that NPC supply from play. For the simple reason they have sell orders for 1 isk less than the NPC price. Therefore the NPC price doesn't show. You can't buy what you can't see, so the NPC is NOT competeing with the PC manufacturer. Basicly as I and others have outlined removing the NPC market is NOT going to fix the market. And yes I agree it is broken, but for other reasons I have posted before. (Which strangly you have avoided comenting on Callas...does this mean you agree with me?) In case you missed them here they are... """***The reason that manufactureing isn't a good way to make money is there is no risk of losing a ship, so why buy another? The weapons that can be manufactured are sub par compared to loot drops. And for every item out there, there are lots of manufacturers trying to get their order on top. (lower price shows on map, it covers the higher one. Something you still seem not to grasp since you blame NPCs for taking the market.)""" And I am sorry for the rant on the forum quote bug. I use IE (ugh!) and the quote of a quote made the forums completely unreadible yesterday. The bug seems to have been fixed with the addition of the smilies. So quote away.
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.22 21:30:00 - [106] """"quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note that it is quite wrong to call NPC prices "a clear market indicator". They are no such thing; they are someone in the market selling at that price. An indicator does not affect the market, an indicator is merely a record of what the market is doing or has done. As for the rest, I am not going to explain again. I have explained in several posts, several times, in this thread, what the advantages are. I can point you at those posts and say - there are the reasons why. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't say rehash the whole list. Just a single one would do. But you seem to keep dodging. And yes, it is a clear market indicator. It says quite clearly if goods are being bought at npc price, then the demand in that location isn't being met by players. If you can't figure out how to take advantage of that, that's your bother. Except I think that you have and want it removed.""" The only advantage I see is there is no upper limit to what people can charge. The possibility of 'price fixing' comes into play. Right now only a hndful of corps make BS for sale on the market. If these few people decide a bottom end BS is worth 1 bil, and set their prices as such, you have to make your own or pay their price. Same for any item, from weapons to shields, to boosters ect. With an imparcle(sp) NPC seller, we can always get the item for a 'set' price. We can find better deals, but always have a 'top' price that is reasonible. Otherwise like I said above a civ shield booster(needed in missions) becomes an item that can be sold for 4X 5X its worth.
Malais	Posted - 2003.07.22 21:31:00 - [107] """"quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note that it is quite wrong to call NPC prices "a clear market indicator". They are no such thing; they are someone in the market selling at that price. An indicator does not affect the market, an indicator is merely a record of what the market is doing or has done. As for the rest, I am not going to explain again. I have explained in several posts, several times, in this thread, what the advantages are. I can point you at those posts and say - there are the reasons why. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't say rehash the whole list. Just a single one would do. But you seem to keep dodging. And yes, it is a clear market indicator. It says quite clearly if goods are being bought at npc price, then the demand in that location isn't being met by players. If you can't figure out how to take advantage of that, that's your bother. Except I think that you have and want it removed.""" The only advantage I see is there is no upper limit to what people can charge. The possibility of 'price fixing' comes into play. Right now only a hndful of corps make BS for sale on the market. If these few people decide a bottom end BS is worth 1 bil, and set their prices as such, you have to make your own or pay their price. Same for any item, from weapons to shields, to boosters ect. With an imparcle(sp) NPC seller, we can always get the item for a 'set' price. We can find better deals, but always have a 'top' price that is reasonible. Otherwise like I said above a civ shield booster(needed in missions) becomes an item that can be sold for 4X 5X its worth.

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