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For those saying freighters WOULDN'T ruin the economy. You were wrong

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Vaaliant	Posted - 2005.08.06 22:15:00 - [151] Originally by: Fidelis Deus What has happened here is that a veteran player takes adaantage of his wealth and knowledge to be able to conquer the market. While this is not illegal, it is quite a bit unfair. The NPC trade market is designed for newer players who need the system to make isk, it's designed for people with low SP running trade routes. What should be done is that the market should scale down, it should be made so that you a station will only buy so many goods before the price drops extremely low, this scale should make it possible for frieghters to still make a profit, but a comparatively small one which does not unbalance the game. While most trade routes are like this, I believe that all routes should be like this, to make it a bit more fair and balanced. it is possible for a freighter to make a profit hauling 100km3 of goods, but not enough to desstabilize the indys who only carry 15k m3 of goods. For newer people flying indy's, the profit remains the same, and the NPC market remains a vital way of making isk. Bull crap that its only designed for lower SP players, otherwise there wouldnt be sooo many market related skills. The NPC market if anything needs to get more complex to involve those big time market players. Have us manufacture goods to supply NPC demand or some way to take advantage of bigger haulers and freighters.
davida	Posted - 2005.08.06 23:25:00 - [152] So apparently a freighter in empire space is unfair because it takes away an opportunity for new players to make isk. Is it me or are we missing the point. It has always been possible to play with the market and is easily done with out even leaving a station and with a small investment. As an example for less than 100 mill a few months ago you could have bought the entire supply of isogen in lonetrek and put it back on the market at double the price. Since no supply in lonetrek for a few days a total monopoly exists. The whining about freighter is just because a cushy number has been found and used up. The lesson keep an eye on the market look for the opportunity and take it rather than relying on the same route over and over again. Hey you may even find the game has more to offer. Quite apart from anything else if people are making a billion a day and, by the devs own admission only 1000 players have over a billion in their wallets, then that means they are spending it. So instead of moaning that you cant sell roes anymore find the demand and fill it. That is what trading is all about. I will soon take delivery of a freighter. I will have mined the minerals myself paid for it myself and the last thing i will want to do is fill it with stinky fish. But i will be looking for that elusive market opportunity rather than relying on something I found months ago and am too bone idle to find anything else. Far from killing a market freighters have to scope to breathe new life into it.
Jane Paris	Posted - 2005.08.07 07:44:00 - [153] All that needs to be done to fix this issue are faster cycle times for prices and demand of trading commodities. Whoops problem solved and everyone is happy. Yes I have a freighter. Yes it took me several months to get the isk necessary to get one. No I did NOT get my money from this investment back yet. And no I will NEVER use it in unsecure systems.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.08.07 12:57:00 - [154] NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent.
Jane Paris	Posted - 2005.08.07 13:43:00 - [155] Originally by: Blind Fear NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent. I am sorry if you feel that way. But personally I hate mining and npcing is not my thing either. Not to mention how boring and unrewarding the agent missions have become. Trading on the other hand makes you think about what you are doing. Finding the right suppliers and buyers and outsmarting the growing competition. And if you think that trading is not useful you are entirely wrong as it allows me to buy loads of ships and the overpriced Tech2 equipment and lose them in battle. Thus making people like yourself rich as well. So if you don't like trading just take your mining equipment for a spin and leave this post to people who care.
JoCool	Posted - 2005.08.07 14:00:00 - [156] Originally by: Fred0 Edited by: Fred0 on 04/08/2005 10:29:06 It seems the supply and demand model needs some adjusting to factor in the freighters. This has the potential to be big and I've seen another MMORPG go down more or less excactly because of this. If you're talking about Jumpgate, more or less tbh. It went down because they changed it into Carebeargate.
Vilsix	Posted - 2005.08.07 14:16:00 - [157] Originally by: Jane Paris Originally by: Blind Fear NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent. And if you think that trading is not useful you are entirely wrong as it allows me to buy loads of ships and the overpriced Tech2 equipment and lose them in battle. Thus making people like yourself rich as well. But isn't that unbalanced if you can take part in low-risk trading but getting very rich off of it to the extend you described? For newer players, NPC routes are a great way to get up and running...but if the routes are yielding massive profits for little, or no risk (you can do trading or hauling afk) isn't that a bit much?
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.08.07 14:17:00 - [158] Originally by: Vilsix Originally by: Jane Paris Originally by: Blind Fear NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent. And if you think that trading is not useful you are entirely wrong as it allows me to buy loads of ships and the overpriced Tech2 equipment and lose them in battle. Thus making people like yourself rich as well. But isn't that unbalanced if you can take part in low-risk trading but getting very rich off of it to the extend you described? For newer players, NPC routes are a great way to get up and running...but if the routes are yielding massive profits for little, or no risk (you can do trading or hauling afk) isn't that a bit much? Oops, alt. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Jane Paris	Posted - 2005.08.07 14:29:00 - [159] Edited by: Jane Paris on 07/08/2005 14:31:05 Making isk in this game is tough tbh. When I get on I want to relax and have some fun therefore I love the trading option as it allows me to finance my pvp alt without too much of a husstle. No one said anything about getting too rich that way as it still occupies far too much of my time. BTW: Originally by: Kontraband .... Maut -> Villore Now that the entire eve-comunity knows what your route is you will have to worry about more than just a freighter Edit: Typos
Nauta Starbane	Posted - 2005.08.07 16:56:00 - [160] Originally by: Vaaliant Bull crap that its only designed for lower SP players, otherwise there wouldnt be sooo many market related skills. The NPC market if anything needs to get more complex to involve those big time market players. Have us manufacture goods to supply NPC demand or some way to take advantage of bigger haulers and freighters. I think CCP should consider this. It would have to be well-thought out, but it could be a great boon to tech1 industrialists, who atm don't make much profit on a lot of their goods (Dominix sells for something like 2 million over its mineral cost in some markets). The danger comes if players start producing solely for the npc market and abandon the player market.
Junna Isiene	Posted - 2005.08.07 17:27:00 - [161] Originally by: Blind Fear NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent. Or... move all NPC goods supply points to 0.4 space and below. Move the demand points to 0.5 space and above. Then you have trade routes that actually introduce risk factor to the profit. Even with inta-bookmarks the larger the hauler and more cargo expanders on it, the longer it takes to enter warp... perhaps enough to get caught with pants down if one is not careful.
Kontraband	Posted - 2005.08.07 18:09:00 - [162] Edited by: Kontraband on 07/08/2005 18:09:57 Originally by: Jane Paris BTW: Originally by: Kontraband .... Maut -> Villore Now that the entire eve-comunity knows what your route is you will have to worry about more than just a freighter If you mean pirates...Bring em Theres usually tons of anti-pirate corps sitting there waiting for them, and usually a pirate or 2 fighting them :P But last time I did the route I had -0.2 sec rating and the anti pirate people even tried to attack me ;P Originally by: Junna Isiene Originally by: Blind Fear NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent. Or... move all NPC goods supply points to 0.4 space and below. Move the demand points to 0.5 space and above. The route I am speaking of in the first post is supply in 0.4
Junna Isiene	Posted - 2005.08.07 18:24:00 - [163] Edited by: Junna Isiene on 07/08/2005 18:25:27 Originally by: Kontraband The route I am speaking of in the first post is supply in 0.4 No problem then? I'd suspect the "issue" will fix itself once enough people become aware of its existence... all that remains is, make the other routes work the same way ;p
Fidelis Deus	Posted - 2005.08.07 18:40:00 - [164] Originally by: Vaaliant Originally by: Fidelis Deus What has happened here is that a veteran player takes adaantage of his wealth and knowledge to be able to conquer the market. While this is not illegal, it is quite a bit unfair. The NPC trade market is designed for newer players who need the system to make isk, it's designed for people with low SP running trade routes. What should be done is that the market should scale down, it should be made so that you a station will only buy so many goods before the price drops extremely low, this scale should make it possible for frieghters to still make a profit, but a comparatively small one which does not unbalance the game. While most trade routes are like this, I believe that all routes should be like this, to make it a bit more fair and balanced. it is possible for a freighter to make a profit hauling 100km3 of goods, but not enough to desstabilize the indys who only carry 15k m3 of goods. For newer people flying indy's, the profit remains the same, and the NPC market remains a vital way of making isk. Bull crap that its only designed for lower SP players, otherwise there wouldnt be sooo many market related skills. The NPC market if anything needs to get more complex to involve those big time market players. Have us manufacture goods to supply NPC demand or some way to take advantage of bigger haulers and freighters. The NPC market remains a way for low SP players to make a bit of profit hauling in empire space. Don't you conisider it a bit unfair for someone to be able to make a couple billion isk a week with virtually no risk while flying afk? The quantity should be nerfed for npc routes.
Vaaliant	Posted - 2005.08.07 19:10:00 - [165] Originally by: Fidelis Deus Originally by: Vaaliant Originally by: Fidelis Deus What has happened here is that a veteran player takes adaantage of his wealth and knowledge to be able to conquer the market. While this is not illegal, it is quite a bit unfair. The NPC trade market is designed for newer players who need the system to make isk, it's designed for people with low SP running trade routes. What should be done is that the market should scale down, it should be made so that you a station will only buy so many goods before the price drops extremely low, this scale should make it possible for frieghters to still make a profit, but a comparatively small one which does not unbalance the game. While most trade routes are like this, I believe that all routes should be like this, to make it a bit more fair and balanced. it is possible for a freighter to make a profit hauling 100km3 of goods, but not enough to desstabilize the indys who only carry 15k m3 of goods. For newer people flying indy's, the profit remains the same, and the NPC market remains a vital way of making isk. Bull crap that its only designed for lower SP players, otherwise there wouldnt be sooo many market related skills. The NPC market if anything needs to get more complex to involve those big time market players. Have us manufacture goods to supply NPC demand or some way to take advantage of bigger haulers and freighters. The NPC market remains a way for low SP players to make a bit of profit hauling in empire space. Don't you conisider it a bit unfair for someone to be able to make a couple billion isk a week with virtually no risk while flying afk? The quantity should be nerfed for npc routes. Dont you consider it realistically unfair that what you're asking for is a nerf to one of the most complex systems eve has in place? Look I'll tell you quite frankly that I've been trading since day 1 retail and I can point out to you during Castor I basically was ready to quit because they nerfed trading so hard (you'd have limited volumes in the hundreds of units and limited demand to point that a shuttle could fill the trade orders). Trading has been and will continue to be an option for players if for no other reason than because its in the frikkin manual stating that it is an option for players. To force people to go into low sec space to find the goods does not help us. You just make it easier to gank industrials and the mid range traders who cannot afford transports or convoys. The freighters will still be there but no one will do any trade run period unless its actually worthwhile. It wont improve gameplay but will simply reinforce in peoples minds that CCP doesn't care about the casual player or the player who wants to solo at all but cares more about the pirate communities and pvpers (after all who else will benefit from low sec trading, certainly not us traders).
Clain Matta	Posted - 2005.08.07 20:04:00 - [166] I have read this thread in its entirety and something occurs to me. What I believe that the root of the problem here is not the ability to generate a high profit margin, but the lack of "costs of goods sold". Taking a lesson from r/l. In order to move a huge ship, it requires fuel. The larger the mass, the more energy that is required to achieve movement. So, perhaps what we need in eve is some sort of fuel for the ships. The obviously aim at this suggestion being that the larger the ship, the less efficient it is in providing thrust. This could also lead to several other branches and create some other modules. New modules could include engines, named engines, fuel types. Raw material has to be refined and can be provided in several grades, providing benefits including a bonus in reduction of sensor radius, or additional thrust. Skies the limit here. As in the world of eve, I believe each race uses different kinds of propulsion. This would not only create new markets, but allow for a wider diversity of roles. It could be expanded to several layers as well. Fuel is needed for starships, therefore it needs to be shipped. The largest ships are going to be in 0.0 therefore there would be a huge demand for it out there. Show me a freighter captain that would take his ship into a war zone, and I will show you 100 blockade runners that would do it in a heartbeat. What I am trying to say is that in Eve, there is little in the way of ongoing expenses, and what we should do is create that, and by doing that, we would reinfuse markets and rejevenate the trade profession. As well as create self-sustaining markets that would be ever expanding as more and larger ships are introduced. My 2 cents
Vaaliant	Posted - 2005.08.07 20:28:00 - [167] Originally by: Clain Matta I have read this thread in its entirety and something occurs to me. What I believe that the root of the problem here is not the ability to generate a high profit margin, but the lack of "costs of goods sold". Taking a lesson from r/l. In order to move a huge ship, it requires fuel. The larger the mass, the more energy that is required to achieve movement. So, perhaps what we need in eve is some sort of fuel for the ships. The obviously aim at this suggestion being that the larger the ship, the less efficient it is in providing thrust. This could also lead to several other branches and create some other modules. New modules could include engines, named engines, fuel types. Raw material has to be refined and can be provided in several grades, providing benefits including a bonus in reduction of sensor radius, or additional thrust. Skies the limit here. As in the world of eve, I believe each race uses different kinds of propulsion. This would not only create new markets, but allow for a wider diversity of roles. It could be expanded to several layers as well. Fuel is needed for starships, therefore it needs to be shipped. The largest ships are going to be in 0.0 therefore there would be a huge demand for it out there. Show me a freighter captain that would take his ship into a war zone, and I will show you 100 blockade runners that would do it in a heartbeat. What I am trying to say is that in Eve, there is little in the way of ongoing expenses, and what we should do is create that, and by doing that, we would reinfuse markets and rejevenate the trade profession. As well as create self-sustaining markets that would be ever expanding as more and larger ships are introduced. My 2 cents Thats not quite true..in RL freighters and trucks are horrendously efficient at transporting goods for the fuel spent (especiallly in volume), only thing more efficient is train transport and barge transport. The most inefficient form of transport of bulk/volume goods is plane transport currently however that is offset by having the speed to deliver an item (hence priority delivery mail and customer products such as live race horses hehe). The biggest problem you're forgetting is inertia, large objects once in motion tend to stay in motion minus friction of course and in space there isnt any friction. But this is EVE so logic isnt of any use to us .
Clain Matta	Posted - 2005.08.07 20:55:00 - [168] Lol, so I am not a physics major, and yeah I kinda forgot that one little tidbit, but the concept of fuel costs in eve might just be the counter balance to being able to haul so much. It might also stop the freighters because of such cost. These are just thoughts and ideas, but they would solve some problems, obviously generate others, but a balance would be achieved.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.08.07 21:13:00 - [169] Originally by: Junna Isiene Originally by: Blind Fear NPC trade runs need to disappear. They do absolutely nothing for the economy and are simply disruptive and unbalanced. They have needed to disappear for a very long time, but now it's somewhat more urgent. Or... move all NPC goods supply points to 0.4 space and below. Move the demand points to 0.5 space and above. Then you have trade routes that actually introduce risk factor to the profit. Even with inta-bookmarks the larger the hauler and more cargo expanders on it, the longer it takes to enter warp... perhaps enough to get caught with pants down if one is not careful. Christ no. Don't seek to associate "combat" risk with absolutely every activity in Eve. Use your brain and consider trade risk to be something totally different: the possibility that you have invested all of your money on commodities that might fall in price - and I don't mean just until next downtime either.
Junna Isiene	Posted - 2005.08.07 21:49:00 - [170] Originally by: babyblue Christ no. Don't seek to associate "combat" risk with absolutely every activity in Eve. Use your brain and consider trade risk to be something totally different: the possibility that you have invested all of your money on commodities that might fall in price - and I don't mean just until next downtime either. Meaning all i have to do in order to completely eliminate this new kind of risk is, not invest all my money at once? Brilliant.
Miri Tirzan	Posted - 2005.08.07 23:33:00 - [171] Originally by: Junna Isiene Originally by: babyblue Christ no. Don't seek to associate "combat" risk with absolutely every activity in Eve. Use your brain and consider trade risk to be something totally different: the possibility that you have invested all of your money on commodities that might fall in price - and I don't mean just until next downtime either. Meaning all i have to do in order to completely eliminate this new kind of risk is, not invest all my money at once? Brilliant. Yep, you eliminate this new kind of risk.... ever heard of economics or finance? The stockmarket and commodates trading. Eve just created them for this game. Get a clue. The trading recreates some of the complexity of the commodities trading and some of the risk. If you think that commodities trading is without risk, then your hopeless. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.08.07 23:53:00 - [172] It seems to me the simplest solution is to make freighters unflyable by people in NPC corps- they require a corporate registration and the NPC corps don't wanna pay or something like that. This would have the effect of rendering empire space unsafe for unescorted freighters. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.08.07 23:55:00 - [173] Originally by: Derron Bel It seems to me the simplest solution is to make freighters unflyable by people in NPC corps- they require a corporate registration and the NPC corps don't wanna pay or something like that. This would have the effect of rendering empire space unsafe for unescorted freighters. Do the same for battleships, all elite ships and mining barges. Its a good plan imo. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Junna Isiene	Posted - 2005.08.08 01:02:00 - [174] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Yep, you eliminate this new kind of risk.... ever heard of economics or finance? The stockmarket and commodates trading. Eve just created them for this game. Get a clue. The trading recreates some of the complexity of the commodities trading and some of the risk. If you think that commodities trading is without risk, then your hopeless. The trading of NPC goods recreates complexity and some of the risk of stockmarket/commodities trading? Right... Complexity: buy lower, sell higher. Shorter routes are better. Volume profit > profit per piece. Complicated as hell. Risk: potential cost of missed opportunity if you wind up with part of your assets temporarily frozen. Ohnoes. Too bad every other part of this game involves exactly this kind of risk, on top of chance of actually losing your investment. Now where is this trade-specific risk, that'd make up for practical lack of possibility to ever really lose the money you invested in the NPC trinkets? That's right, nowhere. And no, possibility it can take more than "until next downtime" before the NPC prices on some commodity climb back to profitable level again really isn't any different or particularly "risky", either...
Digiblast	Posted - 2005.08.08 01:17:00 - [175] Edited by: Digiblast on 08/08/2005 01:20:07 I now FINALLY understand what the word EXPLOIT means in this game. It means that the ppl that use it are jealous of others ppl success! And it's a shame that ccp/gms are one of thouse ppl. LMAO
Derran	Posted - 2005.08.08 01:30:00 - [176] Couple solutions I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe give them jump drives but I am not sure of the ramifications of that though it would give them an overhead cost and require more than one person to work. Or, get rid of instas or make instas impossible to drop you 15k from the gate. Much longer trip between systems without instas.
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.08.08 11:19:00 - [177] Seems whenever someone comes up with a good idea in this game there is always someone who wants it nerfed instead of coming up with their own solution. We all start off pretty much the same so instead of wingeing about someones idea try and think of your own.
Olivin	Posted - 2005.08.08 12:41:00 - [178] Originally by: davida So apparently a freighter in empire space is unfair because it takes away an opportunity for new players to make isk. .. and Freighters allow to ignore NWO and import tremendous amount of goods to the regional/remote markets which effectively destroy any chance for new/smaller manufactures/traders/haulers. This is wrong. Freighters allow to farm NPC trade routes and make huge amount of isk in absolute safety, meanwhile destroying said trade routes for smaller players. This is wrong. Freighters in secure Empire space are overpowered. Iteron mark V: 5 X Local Hull = 60 m/s and capacity ~ 14220 m3 ( I think it's about right) VS Obelisk 65 m/sec and capacity 750000 m3. I am not taking any skills on account, just base values to show that balance between speed vs capacity is simply not there. And if we will take instas on account it safe to assume that regular indy will not do it much faster than a freighter. Secure space without highways, means longer routes, means capacity always win over speed/agility. So long for "faster and more efficient" indy. This is wrong. Freighters are capital ships. All other capital ships ( dreads) are restricted to 0.4 and below. Freighters designed to improve 0.0. build outposts, capital ships, etc. Basically freighters designed to supply 0.4 and below space. Freighters in secure space is wrong. Olivin
Sessho Seki	Posted - 2005.08.09 01:11:00 - [179] LetÆs make all ships have a cargo capacity of 10m3, and EVERYONE will be restricted to 0.4 space or lower, and seal off all empire space to players just like Jove space! ThatÆll solve everything right??? Now more ship specializations for ANYONE! And everyone is going to be stuck in 0.4 space or lower. How irritatingly homogeneous. You are whining, you donÆt understand what you are talking about, you are comparing things that arenÆt appropriate to compare. Whiners griping about that which they do not understand is wrong.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.08.09 01:21:00 - [180] Restricting freighters to anywhere is retarded. Deleting the NPC demand for EVERYTHING is the proper solution. Aight, we're done here.

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