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Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
139
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Posted - 2013.02.26 15:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
The best way to arange a counter is by, making it a real mechanic.
Ramming ships \o/
Though that would require a physics make over, again something i'd cheer for.
would makes mass somthing that has a positive side as well.
and would give a bonus to armor tankers against Shield tankers.
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
619
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Posted - 2013.02.26 16:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:EVE needs to improve both the single player experience...
CCP stated they're looking in to this, there's no valid reason why this shouldn't be possible in all areas of the game, however doing so without stepping on "group" abilities to mess with those is tricky.
You already have the option to move to another system and mine quietly, the best counter to bumpers is to ignore them and let them without nothing to mess with, they'll get bored at some point and move somewhere else.
Mine mission sites is another available option, probe sites etc. In the end you'll win a little bit more isk than dealing with those nerds. Eventually you can also find those huge neutral null sec corps those bump nerds are actually protecting and just bump them.
Cheapo Thorax with nanos shield extenders and mwd +rigs is dam agile and tops over 4km/s (add OGB and this number goes crazy for a cruiser), nice tool for bumping the bumper or bumper mining friends. Have fun messing with them as much as they have messing with you, even if they gank your ship you're still wining in the end. You're making them get less isk/h and making them loose isk in your gank+loss SS. See this on a larger scale than the simple rock you want to mine, and it's good fun waiting your friends to log in then give them a reason to wardec said miner corporation. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
663
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Posted - 2013.02.26 17:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:bumping is a brilliant mechanic for disrupting enemy warps or transversal movement. it takes a fair amount of pilot skill to do it to a moving target, and should be rewarded.
bumps against stationary targets are easily avoided (just move) and are not a real issue. Err... No. Bumping is easy as cake in a small cruiser with oversized mwd. You turn it on after aiming. And moving a freighter out of the way is... impossible. Different size boats' handling are different. I don't support counter for bumping, btw. But with these forums full of vets, don't expect to lie in their face and have it unanswered.
calling me a liar because i failed to mention a circumstantial scenario is a tad dramatic. and there are still things u can do to get around being bumped even in a freighter. |
Quintessen
Nakamori Ventures
44
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Posted - 2013.02.26 18:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:sabre906 wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:bumping is a brilliant mechanic for disrupting enemy warps or transversal movement. it takes a fair amount of pilot skill to do it to a moving target, and should be rewarded.
bumps against stationary targets are easily avoided (just move) and are not a real issue. Err... No. Bumping is easy as cake in a small cruiser with oversized mwd. You turn it on after aiming. And moving a freighter out of the way is... impossible. Different size boats' handling are different. I don't support counter for bumping, btw. But with these forums full of vets, don't expect to lie in their face and have it unanswered. calling me a liar because i failed to mention a circumstantial scenario is a tad dramatic. and there are still things u can do to get around being bumped even in a freighter.
Hmm. specifics? How does freighter which cannot fit modules avoid bumps? Counter positions are good I think, but specifics are necessary to keep it from being useless arguments in the form of "uh huh... nuh uh". |
methosbhunter
8's Crazy Eightz 8's Fade 2 Black
0
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Posted - 2013.02.26 18:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
back in the early stages of eve ships would take damage from ramming into each other this was quickly exploited with large ships sitting at warp in points and getting kills on smaller ships like using smart bombs so ccp disabled this mechanic.
bringing it back will only cause the same issues to represent themselves again but would be interesting to see if was returned would require a warning system in place with a cool-down be for suspect flag initializing but and so on it could be worked out
or could get more interesting in it and have modules or systems get damaged or disabled depending on where the ship was hit when bumped there is alot of imagination that can go into it from a developers stand point but initialization is the issue and planning to prevent exploitation is also another issue. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1640
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Posted - 2013.02.26 18:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
An earlier suggestion was a "space anchor" which lets you anchor your ship sort of like how POS arrays and GSCs get anchored. Like those cases, you could not anchor your ship too close to other anchored items such as GSCs, other anchored ships, or stations. (Which means you cannot clog up an undock with anchored ships). Unlike normal anchoring, it would not make you totally fixed. A bump would still move you, just not as much.
Although this would limit bumping off roids (it would still be possible, just harder), it does nothing for the case of using bumping as a substitute for a scram. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
665
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Posted - 2013.02.26 20:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:
Hmm. specifics? How does freighter which cannot fit modules avoid bumps? Counter positions are good I think, but specifics are necessary to keep it from being useless arguments in the form of "uh huh... nuh uh".
getting bumped when u try to undock? use an insta-undock or a have a friend in fleet sit out at one.
getting bumped when ur out and hauling? log off and comeback later. they'll get bored. if it persists everytime u try to haul and they follow u everywhere, it apparently constitutes as harassment. get a friend or alt to haul while petition goes through.
getting bumped and ganked? ur already dead. the bumping is legit and is the least of ur worries. |
Quintessen
Nakamori Ventures
44
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Posted - 2013.02.26 20:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Quintessen wrote:
Hmm. specifics? How does freighter which cannot fit modules avoid bumps? Counter positions are good I think, but specifics are necessary to keep it from being useless arguments in the form of "uh huh... nuh uh".
getting bumped when u try to undock? use an insta-undock or a have a friend in fleet sit out at one. getting bumped when ur out and hauling? log off and comeback later. they'll get bored. if it persists everytime u try to haul and they follow u everywhere, it apparently constitutes as harassment. get a friend or alt to haul while petition goes through. getting bumped and ganked? ur already dead. the bumping is legit and is the least of ur worries.
I mentioned 1v1 play, so presume no friends.
Secondly it seems a player's options when being bumped is to stop playing -- a true recipe for success.
And lastly, bumping as a stalling tactic (where the bumped can't aggress) until the rest of your fleet shows up is just dumb in my opinion. If you web/scram me I can defend myself. But if you're bumping I cannot until it's too late.
It's like the guy who keeps getting in your way without touching you until his buddies can show up and beat the crap out of you. I can't think of a single decent court that wouldn't see the guy stalling you as part of the aggressors. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
665
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Posted - 2013.02.26 20:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Quintessen wrote:
Hmm. specifics? How does freighter which cannot fit modules avoid bumps? Counter positions are good I think, but specifics are necessary to keep it from being useless arguments in the form of "uh huh... nuh uh".
getting bumped when u try to undock? use an insta-undock or a have a friend in fleet sit out at one. getting bumped when ur out and hauling? log off and comeback later. they'll get bored. if it persists everytime u try to haul and they follow u everywhere, it apparently constitutes as harassment. get a friend or alt to haul while petition goes through. getting bumped and ganked? ur already dead. the bumping is legit and is the least of ur worries. I mentioned 1v1 play, so presume no friends. Secondly it seems a player's options when being bumped is to stop playing -- a true recipe for success. And lastly, bumping as a stalling tactic (where the bumped can't aggress) until the rest of your fleet shows up is just dumb in my opinion. If you web/scram me I can defend myself. But if you're bumping I cannot until it's too late. It's like the guy who keeps getting in your way without touching you until his buddies can show up and beat the crap out of you. I can't think of a single decent court that wouldn't see the guy stalling you as part of the aggressors.
then i think the source of ur problem is that ur trying to 1v1 in a freighter... |
Weasel Juice
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
30
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Posted - 2013.02.26 22:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
Yes, give suspect flags for bumping. That would make the docking ring of Jita 4-4 REALLY fun to watch.
Bumping is fine, deal with it.
Solutions among others include: Insta undocks, webs, MJD, dodging, jump drives or just plain staying docked up. |
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Verlai
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
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Posted - 2013.02.27 01:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
This is a fantastic idea! I too would love to have a counter analogous to the ship spinning counter to keep track of how many times I've bumped a particular ship in a row. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed.
1379
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Posted - 2013.02.27 01:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Verlai wrote:This is a fantastic idea! I too would love to have a counter analogous to the ship spinning counter to keep track of how many times I've bumped a particular ship in a row. THIS
This is what I expected this thread was about.
I endorse this! Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Akara Ito
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
61
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Posted - 2013.02.27 01:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Being faster than the ship bumping you seems kind of a natural counter to me.
Bumping can also be quite an art, its not that easy to be both faster and heavier than your target and still hit it with precision. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
797
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Posted - 2013.02.27 02:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
Akara Ito wrote:Being faster than the ship bumping you seems kind of a natural counter to me.
Bumping can also be quite an art, its not that easy to be both faster and heavier than your target and still hit it with precision.
Confirming OP's freighter can be be faster than a cruiser. Ah, the IQ of a goon. Link that freighter fit? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
665
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Posted - 2013.02.27 02:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Akara Ito wrote:Being faster than the ship bumping you seems kind of a natural counter to me.
Bumping can also be quite an art, its not that easy to be both faster and heavier than your target and still hit it with precision. Confirming OP's freighter can be be faster than a cruiser. Ah, the IQ of a goon. Link that freighter fit?
must have read the first line and then prematurely ejaculated his post. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
671
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Posted - 2013.02.27 05:16:00 -
[46] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Akara Ito wrote:Being faster than the ship bumping you seems kind of a natural counter to me.
Bumping can also be quite an art, its not that easy to be both faster and heavier than your target and still hit it with precision. Confirming OP's freighter can be be faster than a cruiser. Ah, the IQ of a goon. Link that freighter fit?
This is how I fit my freighters, not sure about you guys...
[Charon, Dodger]
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Celly Smunt
Viziam Amarr Empire
111
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Posted - 2013.02.27 22:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
Quintessen wrote: loophole in the game's mechanics.
Just in case no one has said it yet.
"No it's not" loophole is just another way of saying exploit and bumping is not an exploit.
the game's mechanics allow a pod to bump a titan(and affect it) when physics alone says this shouldn't be possible, the game's mechanics also stop that same pod from bumping something (and affecting it) if that item is anchored.
so bumping anything that's not anchored and affecting it in some way (trajectory, position, alignment, ect ect ect ) is in fact "Working as intended"
just saying.
o/ Celly Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |
Celly Smunt
Viziam Amarr Empire
111
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Posted - 2013.02.27 22:45:00 -
[48] - Quote
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
Physical accuracy is not a good justification for making changes to the game. After all, I think flying through planets is silly.
Warp drive theory suggests that by warping the space around you, passing through solid objects is a possibility, additionally, I have long suspected some minute form of phase shifting from the warp drive so that space dust doesn't rip your hull to shreads as you warp, so even that makes warping through a planet possible and acceptable.
ok, I'll shut up now. :)
o/ Celly Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
101
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Posted - 2013.03.01 09:36:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:The best way to arange a counter is by, making it a real mechanic.
Ramming ships \o/
Though that would require a physics make over, again something i'd cheer for.
would makes mass somthing that has a positive side as well.
and would give a bonus to armor tankers against Shield tankers.
ramming ships would make miner ganking even easier. It would mean that a single stabber with a 100MN AB (or 100MN MWD if you want to play powergrid tetris) could possibly king hit a mackinaw. That pulls costs down considerably! |
Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
420
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Posted - 2013.03.01 10:00:00 -
[50] - Quote
bumping is bullplop.
how can a frigate bump a BS or cap ship? |
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Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
150
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Posted - 2013.03.01 13:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
Super spikinator wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:The best way to arange a counter is by, making it a real mechanic.
Ramming ships \o/
Though that would require a physics make over, again something i'd cheer for.
would makes mass somthing that has a positive side as well.
and would give a bonus to armor tankers against Shield tankers.
ramming ships would make miner ganking even easier. It would mean that a single stabber with a 100MN AB (or 100MN MWD if you want to play powergrid tetris) could possibly king hit a mackinaw. That pulls costs down considerably!
why, if you bring in real physics, a miner could take cover withing the asteroid belt, the rammer should navigate his way through those before he can pick up speed to ram a ship.
I'm not aware what the mass of a Miniing ship is, because it should be something that must be taken in account, if you shoot a bullit at a steel door the bullet will be of worse than the door.
It would not be something that should be brought in the game without thinking, but I would cheer the fought of more physics in EVE. hitting a structure should do something.
Yes there will be obstacles (undocking, criminal flag or not and a few others, though I think there could be a solutions for those) the undock 30 sec untachable could count or colisions as well, there could be more undock gates or you should ask clearance or undocking first.
criminal flagging is harder, because at what time are you accdedently brushing someone and when are you ramming it. maybe you should give a command like aproach, and leave the damage done by crashing lower, or you might want to do something with the safety buttom when it's on ships will outomaticly stear away from eachother.
afin like I said it need to be thought through, and tested first but I think it would be a asset to EVE.
for a unforgiving world it lets you get away with a lot o bad piloting.
it also leaves room or a couple of other moduls, a ram, a propulsion mod that would let you fly back wards, for manuevarbillity in asteroid ields and the like.
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Sentamon
706
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Posted - 2013.03.01 14:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Bumping is a perfectly legitimate mechanic to use. There are counters, but they require team mates and imagination.
Fair enough, if bumping required team mates and imagination. Clearly it doesn't. It's a solo activity that can be done in the cheapest of ships with zero risk to the aggressor. You rarely get more broken then this.
Some sort of hull damage on collision would be my preference but there will be much rage over this. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Sentamon
706
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Posted - 2013.03.01 14:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
The Trade Hub issue is another one that could be easily fixed.
Space stations could use tractor beams on nearby ships for traffic control, not let them fly around as they wish. This would fix another problem of ships getting hung up in station geometry when trying to warp and the really ugly looking clipping that you see when ships fly through the station.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
345
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:23:00 -
[54] - Quote
Verlai wrote:This is a fantastic idea! I too would love to have a counter analogous to the ship spinning counter to keep track of how many times I've bumped a particular ship in a row.
/thread So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Vin King
State War Academy Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:26:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Mag's wrote:Bumping is a perfectly legitimate mechanic to use. There are counters, but they require team mates and imagination. Fair enough, if bumping required team mates and imagination. Clearly it doesn't. It's a solo activity that can be done in the cheapest of ships with zero risk to the aggressor. You rarely get more broken then this. Some sort of hull damage on collision would be my preference but there will be much rage over this.
Popping Ventures that float into LowSec is a solo activity with zero risk to the aggressor. Is that broken, too? Also, hull damage on collision would be used in our favor, not the other way around. We'd watch an orbiting mining barge, park in the path, wait for entertainment. 315 4 CSM 8 |
androch
Chillwater Ltd
38
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Posted - 2013.03.01 16:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
its called orbit... know it, love it, use it sheesh some people are just lazy |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14328
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:13:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Mag's wrote:Bumping is a perfectly legitimate mechanic to use. There are counters, but they require team mates and imagination. Fair enough, if bumping required team mates and imagination. Clearly it doesn't. It's a solo activity that can be done in the cheapest of ships with zero risk to the aggressor. You rarely get more broken then this. Some sort of hull damage on collision would be my preference but there will be much rage over this. Maybe I should have added an or to that post, for those who obviously haven't read the thread.
Yes solo players can bump, but also solo player can use counters to bumping. Hull size matters in this regard. In fact the size of the hull is a factor for both sides, if ship are intended to be popped. If they are not, there is no aggression.
So nothing is broken, unless the bad idea of collision damage was introduced.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2113
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Posted - 2013.03.01 18:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
I hope you realize that in most solar systems in space you could just shoot the bumper and be done with it. In hisec your freedom is always restricted by the very same rules that you want/need/think you need to protect you.
Rulesets in a game, where rules are enforced by unerring mechanics (as opposed to RL where enforcing is uncertain and flexible, case by case), are practically impossible to design to be exploit-free. It's an inherent issue of any ruleset created by humans for humans, and becomes ever more complex along with increase system features.
Consider this: You have a small group of humans, with limited time and predictive measures creating rules. Then you have an exponentially larger group of humans with all the time in the world trying to find loopholes and workarounds in these rules. Should be doable, when the context is say, two players moving 6 different types of pieces on an 8-by-8 two-dimensional grid, and clear, concrete objective. Hell, even a computer can find loopholes and exploits in a system by simply crunching numbers :)
Then consider a virtual universe consisting of 7500 solar systems spread across 3 main intertwined areas of basic ROE, hundreds of thousands of players with as many completely arbitrary and even abstract objectives, hundreds of different pieces and a gigantic number of different configurations for them- then tell me that the smaller group of humans can design the rules so that all these different players can chase their objectives in reasonably balances way for a decade, when most factors in the game are in constant flux, and realize that CCP has done a stellar job, and realize that every new rule has the potential to send the whole system into an uncontrollable spin.
And at the very least creates ever more complexity.
tl,dr; hisec ROE are a game designer's nightmare and I'm surprised that it doesn't cause more grief to it's inhabitants than it currently does.
I chose to live outside the law for the sake of my sanity and well-being, it's just more simple and fun to play by the laws of the jungle:
If you attack me and I survive, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven.
The biggest gain from taking your well-being into your own hands is freedom. I guess I'l never understand people who play a science fiction game as immortal demigods, and choose to be bound by stupid laws like in RL, instead of flying free, as masters of their own destiny.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Vin King
State War Academy Caldari State
56
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Roime wrote:In hisec your freedom is always restricted by the very same rules that you want/need/think you need to protect you.
This is one of the most amusing aspects of the entire New Order. Our invulnerability comes from the exact mechanisms that people have whined for in HighSec to protect them all this time. It has created a safety net that stops them from doing anything to us.
315 4 CSM 8 |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
816
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Super spikinator wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:The best way to arange a counter is by, making it a real mechanic.
Ramming ships \o/
Though that would require a physics make over, again something i'd cheer for.
would makes mass somthing that has a positive side as well.
and would give a bonus to armor tankers against Shield tankers.
ramming ships would make miner ganking even easier. It would mean that a single stabber with a 100MN AB (or 100MN MWD if you want to play powergrid tetris) could possibly king hit a mackinaw. That pulls costs down considerably!
How is one stabber cheaper than one catalyst? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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