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Sylux Raynes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
4
   |
Posted - 2013.03.03 23:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:But the Minmatar never actually helped the Nefantar and the Amarr Empire to create the Mandate...
For clarification's sake, that's the point he's making. The Nefantar are ethnically Minmatar, I'll not get into the debate about whether or not they're recognized as such by various other Minmatar. The Mandate was also formed more by necessity than anything, at least as the recollection of many people would suggest. |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation
Liandri Covenant
255
|
Posted - 2013.03.03 23:20:00 -
[92] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:But the Minmatar never actually helped the Nefantar and the Amarr Empire to create the Mandate...
Most consider the Nefantar to be a part of the Minmatar. At the time, the Nefantar apparently believed that they had two very bad choices, and tried to choose the lesser evil. So it was with the Caldari and the Federation. We could agree to be a part of an organization which did not hold our culture and our beliefs as important, or we could resign ourselves to being overwhelmed by Gallente numerical superiority in a few years.
We chose the former. Was it the right choice? Probably - the Gallente never would have allowed us off planet if they thought we had an opportunity for independence. It was only by establishing secret colonies and powerful commercial interests of our own that we were able to stand up to those who were hell-bent on turning us into a captive population for the consumption of Gallente goods and culture. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
976
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 02:13:00 -
[93] - Quote
Vikarion, I'm on your side but for the Winds' sake man could you confine your account to what is historically accurate?
The Federation was supposed to be a good thing for us. We got a boost into the space economy rather than having to bootstrap ourselves up the gravity well, shared resources took the food pressure off Home allowing our population to boom, and we were supposed to be equal and honoured partners in building an interstellar civilisation. It wasn't something we accepted under duress - it was to some degree our idea.
Then it turned out that the Federation disliked certain Caldari business practices, and there was an ethical difference of opinion to overcome and the Caldari demographic found that our lesser population carried less weight in the Democracy than the Gallentean majority and suddenly we went from being equal partners to being a gently annexed territory who were being strangled from living how we wanted to live in a society that was supposedly engineered to be permissive about lifestyles.
Then you have the frustrated megas setting up colonies and holdings outside of Federal oversight, discovery, shouting matches on the Senate floor and a gross overreaction and the rest is mostly battles until the treaty of Tierijev.
The Caldari were NOT strong-armed into co-founding the Federation. claiming that we were undermines your credibility and you should stop.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
403
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 02:54:00 -
[94] - Quote
With regards to the First Union and the secession of the Caldari from the Federation, I would not account the desires and machinations of powerful elites with the opinions and zeitgeists of the general masses. The Caldari back then were far more heterogeneous before the State swept everyone up, and like their Gallente neighbours, I'm sure each citizen had very different opinions on one another, as well as the Federation itself. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
980
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 04:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
Now you're the one who's straying outside the bounds of what's historically accurate, AND straying outside the bounds of your experience to boot.
The Caldari... "Zeitgeist"? Good word. ...of the time was informed by broadly the same historical context as our own, minus a certain war. Similar upbringings, the same traditions, the same general attitudes. The State exists to tend to and promote those traditional values, and the corporations were around for a fair bit before the State or even the Federation were.
I can't know for sure, but I very much doubt we were any more or less heterogeneous then than we are now. Heiian is not a recent concept. It goes right back to long before the Raata Empire, in fact. We're a collectivist culture, that's one of the defining things about the Caldari mindset. It's a tradition we're proud to uphold.
Am I saying that we're completely the same as we were back then? No, of course not, there have been massive upheavals in that time. But please don't try to pretend that we are homogeneous now, or that we were more heterogeneous then. You'll turn out to be absurdly wrong on both counts.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Simon Coal
Comstock Daze
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 05:34:00 -
[96] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:
We've not heard anything from Home, because there's nothing to report. The State looks after its citizens.
Sometimes at gunpoint, as recent events are showing. Look, there's been a lot of violence in the State recently. Your leader is a racist, and a racist terrorist group has been acting more openly since he took power. We have every right to be concerned about how conditions on Caldari Prime will play out. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment
THE ROYAL NAVY
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 06:04:00 -
[97] - Quote
One man's group of terrorists is another man's group of government sponsored thugs.
Pilot Coal, I should remind you that senior Federation chappies, Mentas Blaque among them have not exactly acted with equinamity regarding the Caldari issue, and the only thing separating the Templis Dragonaurs from the FIO's hit squads is a governmental edict. Not even that separates them if you believe the rumour going round that the CPD's own hit squads are former Templis Dragonaur men. Both Heth and Blaque have been engaged in mudslinging contests and I don't want to think about where its going to end. |
Simon Coal
Comstock Daze
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 06:18:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mm. Which has what, precisely, to do with worries about the Gallenteans living on Caldari Prime? 'Both sides' is seriously not a rejoinder here. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment
THE ROYAL NAVY
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 06:42:00 -
[99] - Quote
Quite simple really
Your leaders make antagonistic statements to the State whilst the State has quite large numbers of Gallenteans under their armed guard and then you wonder how those people are being treated.
I merely find that rather strange is all, you can't play hardball with one hand and complain about the living conditions of people living in enemy territory with the next. |
Simon Coal
Comstock Daze
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 08:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
Of course I wonder. Intentionally singling out private individuals for punishment because of the position of their government is, you know, pretty terrible. And if they are truly viewed as hostages, well, that further undermines Stitcher's point, that their life is good and no worries exist for them. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment
THE ROYAL NAVY
20
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 10:21:00 -
[101] - Quote
Indeed it is
much like when the Gallente started bombarding Caldari prime after the Caldari seceeded from the Federation, where private individuals were singled out for punishment thanks to the position of thier government.
Do you not like the taste of your own medicine? |
Simon Coal
Comstock Daze
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 11:29:00 -
[102] - Quote
If it was bad when it happened to your people (and it obviously was), then it is bad when it happens to mine, yes. Am I supposed to feel foolish now? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
160
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 12:54:00 -
[103] - Quote
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:Indeed it is
much like when the Gallente started bombarding Caldari prime after the Caldari seceeded from the Federation, where private individuals were singled out for punishment thanks to the position of thier government.
Do you not like the taste of your own medicine?
Actually, unless you have a different record of history than the rest of us, the bombardment was initiated as a response to the terrorist acts certain of those 'private individuals' were undertaking on Caldari Prime against Gallente targets on the city, the most notable of which was the dome breach of an underwater city resulting in the entire city being murdered.
Not because the Caldari Goverment was saying anything.
I in no way support the current war for either side as a note, but really, at least get your history in the right order as to events and causes. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
182
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 16:37:00 -
[104] - Quote
Simon Coal wrote:Stitcher wrote:
We've not heard anything from Home, because there's nothing to report. The State looks after its citizens.
Sometimes at gunpoint, as recent events are showing. Look, there's been a lot of violence in the State recently. Your leader is a racist, and a racist terrorist group has been acting more openly since he took power. We have every right to be concerned about how conditions on Caldari Prime will play out.
Why don't you visit Caldari Prime then if your concerned about the conditions? nothing is stopping you and nothing stoped me.
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
437
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 22:00:00 -
[105] - Quote
Sylux Raynes wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:James Syagrius wrote:
Now your being snide. Where was CONCORD when the State took Caldari Prime?
Where was the Gallente Navy when the State took Caldari Prime ? Neither one of these questions are relevant if you read the history of what transpired.
Mine was only rhetorical.
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Infighting is what keeps that Leviathan from glassing Gallente Prime, James.
You sure seem convinced that it can actually do it.
I can not since I lack a lot of determining factors in that equation.
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Why don't you visit Caldari Prime then if your concerned about the conditions? nothing is stopping you and nothing stoped me.
I seem to remember several reports of gallente loyalist guerilla on Caldari Prime at the outbreak of war, and after. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 22:53:00 -
[106] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:
You sure seem convinced that it can actually do it.
I can not since I lack a lot of determining factors in that equation.
I'm convinced that if Heth had support and enough reason to do it then plenty of innocent people are going to die one way or another. The last time I was around Gallente Prime,I saw no fleet or orbital structures or ships to fend off the sudden onslaught of a Leviathan and its support fleet.
Lyn Farel wrote:
I seem to remember several reports of gallente loyalist guerilla on Caldari Prime at the outbreak of war, and after.
This is true, but it doesn't stop anyone from coming and going as they please.
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Tobias Annages
The Scope
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 23:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?of=true&newsTitle=mentas-blaque-continues-harsh-condemnation-of-state-roden-speaks-outstanding
Mentas Blaque continues harsh condemnation of State; Roden speaks outstanding
Luminaire GÇô Black Eagles Director Mentas Blaque once again spoke out about Tibus Heth's regime on Monday afternoon, blasting the government of the Caldari State for GÇ£failing to uphold its own laws and allowing a trampling of rights by a power-crazed dictator.GÇ¥ |
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 00:00:00 -
[108] - Quote
Perhaps Mentas Blaque should refrain from trying to tell the Caldari State what is or isn't illegal. The Federation lost its right to command us to follow their idea of law when we won our independence. We will resolve this in our own way, for good or ill. |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
405
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 00:09:00 -
[109] - Quote
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:Perhaps Mentas Blaque should refrain from trying to tell the Caldari State what is or isn't illegal. The Federation lost its right to command us to follow their idea of law when we won our independence. We will resolve this in our own way, for good or ill.
I think President Roden agrees with you. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
184
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 01:43:00 -
[110] - Quote
Quote:President Roden, when asked to comment on Blaque's statements, gave a terse answer, saying, GÇ£The military security of the Gallente Federation is a paramount priority for my administration. However, the internal matters of the Caldari are not something Director Blaque should openly discuss. He should deal with our internal affairs and allow the Caldari to deal with theirs.GÇ¥
Glad to see President Roden speak some sense. As much as Blaque has been blustering lately, I was starting to wonder who the President really was.
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
James Syagrius
The Scope
Gallente Federation
241
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 02:06:00 -
[111] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:Quote:President Roden, when asked to comment on Blaque's statements, gave a terse answer, saying, GÇ£The military security of the Gallente Federation is a paramount priority for my administration. However, the internal matters of the Caldari are not something Director Blaque should openly discuss. He should deal with our internal affairs and allow the Caldari to deal with theirs.GÇ¥ Glad to see President Roden speak some sense. As much as Blaque has been blustering lately, I was starting to wonder who the President really was.
Don't put to much hope in President Rodens comments. Director Blaques is just positioning himself for the next election and Roden knows it.
"We are what we do." |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 04:08:00 -
[112] - Quote
Then I hope this can be resolved quick enough to take the wind out of his sails.
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis
Sicarius Draconis
807
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 04:56:00 -
[113] - Quote
Looking forward to Blaque's announcement that he will be running for president.
SP-DR is recruiting: http://spdr.enjin.com
Amarr Empire in a nut shell: http://i48.tinypic.com/2luayva.jpg |
Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
56
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 05:40:00 -
[114] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:Then I hope this can be resolved quick enough to take the wind out of his sails.
I agree. Blaque does have a point though. If Heth's government falls, there's no way to predict what the crew of that Leviathan will do. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 05:54:00 -
[115] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:Simon Louvaki wrote:Then I hope this can be resolved quick enough to take the wind out of his sails. I agree. Blaque does have a point though. If Heth's government falls, there's no way to predict what the crew of that Leviathan will do.
This is also true. However unless there is something done to ease the minds of those in the State, much like what you said with the space around Caldari Prime being demilitarized and the planet being guaranteed as State territory by CONCORD, then the Leviathan will remain there indefinatly.
[Note: I wasn't demanding Luminarie be demeliterized, it was simply my opinion on the matter]
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
ColonelNick
Providence Guard
Templis Dragonaors
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 10:53:00 -
[116] - Quote
Has Heth been confirmed as the one who gave the order? Are there links to this story even taking place?
Heth was given his powers by the CONSENT of the caldari people. Not all of them, but a vast majority. He fought on the surface of Caldari Prime during the retaking, Risking his own life and limb to fight for what he believed in (to which he cannot clone into a new body, i might add). None of this has been confirmed as Heths work.
Until we have all the facts and evidence, i will remain skeptical, for all we know this was some Gallente black operation designed to frame our leader.
You people sicken me.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
440
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 12:29:00 -
[117] - Quote
Executor Heth has launched an investigation into the actions of the Homeguard ships over New Caldari Prime. I eagerly await the findings of that enquiry. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporation
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 17:01:00 -
[118] - Quote
ColonelNick wrote:Has Heth been confirmed as the one who gave the order? Are there links to this story even taking place?
Heth was given his powers by the CONSENT of the caldari people. Not all of them, but a vast majority. He fought on the surface of Caldari Prime during the retaking, Risking his own life and limb to fight for what he believed in (to which he cannot clone into a new body, i might add). None of this has been confirmed as Heths work.
Until we have all the facts and evidence, i will remain skeptical, for all we know this was some Gallente black operation designed to frame our leader.
You people sicken me.
All I know is what I saw, and that was Home Guard vessels undiscriminating murdering Caldari civilians. There was nothing black ops about this.
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 18:33:00 -
[119] - Quote
ColonelNick wrote:Has Heth been confirmed as the one who gave the order? Are there links to this story even taking place?
Heth was given his powers by the CONSENT of the caldari people. Not all of them, but a vast majority. He fought on the surface of Caldari Prime during the retaking, Risking his own life and limb to fight for what he believed in (to which he cannot clone into a new body, i might add). None of this has been confirmed as Heths work.
Until we have all the facts and evidence, i will remain skeptical, for all we know this was some Gallente black operation designed to frame our leader.
You people sicken me.
Heth was given his powers by softheaded morons who allowed themselves to be taken in by a demagogue, for what reason I will never understand. The Caldari State is not the Federation,, and our government should not be ruled by the winners of a popularity contest. Our State's strength has always been that those who rule had earned their place, something Tibus Heth has never done.
If you are surprised that a corporation led by an incompetent thug turned its guns on its own employees rather than deal with the issue in a more intelligent and effective manner...well, it is unsurprising that you choose to cling to your misguided belief that the Provists act in the best interests of the State and that all our problems can be laid at the feet of the Gallente. You and your kind are what have turned the State into a shadow of what we were only a few years ago.
I am sorry that the truth sickens you. Once, Caldari valued the exposure of fakery and prized real achievement, not empty platitudes and scapegoating. Perhaps someday we will do so again. |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
408
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 20:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
The State system must be at least a little populist, surely? Otherwise, it wouldn't reflect the will of the Caldari people, would it?
That is one issue of meritocracy. You can't necessarily trust the person advancing has everyone's best interest at heart. At least there is the pretense of such in democracy. But I'm not going to pretend I think democracy is infallible. |
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