We, including myself, proceeded to destroy and pod the Home Guard forces in short order.

Caldari should not kill Caldari

You people stop, drop and start dancing to a different tune all too quickly.

Well over a year ago sane capsuleers warned you about Tibus Heth and how obvious his intentions and motives were. Yet all you could reply was with:

"He's not so bad!"

"He's a hero!"

You people are way too gullible and ease to control and manipulate. This is the point where I tell you "I told you so!" and now I'm going to sit back, watch and clap to this wonderful espetacle you helped create.

A'ne!

You people stop, drop and start dancing to a different tune all too quickly.

Well over a year ago sane capsuleers warned you about Tibus Heth and how obvious his intentions and motives were. Yet all you could reply was with:

"He's not so bad!"

"He's a hero!"

You people are way too gullible and ease to control and manipulate. This is the point where I tell you "I told you so!" and now I'm going to sit back, watch and clap to this wonderful espetacle you helped create.

A'ne!

Has the Home Guard given a reason for their attack?

You people are way too gullible and ease to control and manipulate. This is the point where I tell you "I told you so!" and now I'm going to sit back, watch and clap to this wonderful espetacle you helped create.

A'ne!

Has the Home Guard given a reason for their attack?

We must not let ourselves be lost to the hounds of our enemies, though they hunt with ferocity and vigor, we must stand ever vigilant against them.

It is times like these.

You people stop, drop and start dancing to a different tune all too quickly.

Well over a year ago sane capsuleers warned you about Tibus Heth and how obvious his intentions and motives were. Yet all you could reply was with:

"He's not so bad!"

"He's a hero!"

You people are way too gullible and ease to control and manipulate. This is the point where I tell you "I told you so!" and now I'm going to sit back, watch and clap to this wonderful espetacle you helped create.

A'ne!

Its so nice to know that in the aftermath of a tragic event we can always rely on at least one Gallente to claim that this somehow justified, that it was the fault of the people that Heth murdered those protesters.{/quote] Actually it is the fault of the people. They all empowered this man with their mindless following a man who came to the public spotlight by committing a terrorist act and who advocated nothing short of war as the best way to elevate the State out of some imaginary quagmire.



The man uses Titans and Dreadnoughts guns pointed at civilians to "make peace", are you seriously saying that this method of peace never seemed strange to you, that perhaps a made man holding hostages to get his way, was a mad man that would turn on anyone in order to maintain his power base?



So put a bullet in his head and be done with it.

[quote=Aquila Shadow] The only good that can come from this tragedy is that the people of the State now have an unfiltered look at how far gone Heth is.

You all already had that look at your leader, why would this change what the State has already chosen.

1. Heth didn't commit any terrorist act to become the had of the State, he just capitalized on the resentment the working class had for the "Caldari elite"

2. The State was in a quagmire, the workers were little better of then slaves that got paid just enough to survive and the economy was about to crash and burn under the neglect of the previous caretakers. While he is a monster Heth did save the State from ruin. Its also not surprising that the people allowed him to become Executor, at this point he hadn't done anything to make them doubt him.

3.The only way the State could have possibly held onto Caldari Prime was to use the Titan as a deterrent. It also stopped a full blown war breaking out between the State and the Federation, we should probably that your Elders invasion for that.

4. If it were that easy to kill Heth he would be dead already

5. Only the capsuleer community has the full story on what was going on when the navy was bombing those planets, and we are the minority, now the whole state has seen what Heth can really do.

For a brief glimmering moment I thought... a kindred in kind, but no... even now, us.. them.. then even the us within ourselves divided.

I have no love for the State, it has taken too much from me, but what little harm I could do, I will not.

See then to your own hounds.

Is this the same people that fought the Gallente Federation to a stand still because they felt they needed their own space. Fought on because they felt they needed to preserve their own way of life from an encroaching influence?

Now you stand idly by while workers are killed simply because they go on strike and cause a minor disruption?

Because they are goose stepping followers unwilling and unable to think for themselves.

I find it convenient that you can all act so appalled despite the atrocities that your Empires commit each day which are ignored piecemeal.

I remind you all that there is a peace, a peace out there that the Four converged upon together to destroy.

Makes you think.

There is a reason when push came to shove the vast majority of Kuvaki's followers abandoned him.

This is true, in fact this wouldn't have happened in the Nation. Then again, it wouldn't have happened in the Nation because these workers would have been 'True Slaves' and unable to complain about the way they've been treated.

No, not really.

Has the Home Guard given a reason for their attack?

The most probable answer you will receive is that they were following orders. I can respect that. I've been there and done that myself. It's easy to dismiss doing so as weakness or failure. I assure you, from the inside it is not easy. Amoral, yes, but not easy. A good soldier is a well-crafted tool and weapon whose very job is to do as ordered and trust that the orders are good ones. When the authority they obey abuses that trust, then the soldier is not an instrument of evil - they are as much a victim of it as anybody else.

Our outrage must be directed towards the one or ones who gave the order in order for it to be effective and just, not against those who followed it. Don't blame the hammer for the GBH.

Our outrage must be directed towards the one or ones who gave the order in order for it to be effective and just, not against those who followed it. Don't blame the hammer for the GBH.

to be honest I am actually surprised to see so many [Caldari] turning against Heth in such an open manner.

The Caldari are much the same way, and to be honest I am actually surprised to see so many turning against Heth in such an open manner.

To those in open dissent; What of the Home Guard crew? If they were told they were acting to prevent another Malkalen, then were they in the wrong?

I find it convenient that you can all act so appalled despite the atrocities that your Empires commit each day which are ignored piecemeal.

Yes, this is a tragedy, but for as long as you cling to the ways of the Big Four these tragedies will continue.

Heth appealed to the State when he sought regression, bringing back the meritocracy, but what he actually seeks is revolution. So he reveals himself to be a fool. There can be no revolutionary regimes.

I remind you all that there is a peace, a peace out there that the Four converged upon together to destroy. Makes you think.

Now is not the time for off-topic sermons, Inhonores.

No. Humans are not tools. They are living, thinking beings capable of individual judgement and discernment, and apparently one of the Home Guard pilots realised this and stood down rather than murder civilians. So many atrocities have been justified under the aegis of "I did what I was ordered to do." Soldiers are trained to follow orders but the soldier who doesn't spare even a moment's thought to what he's being ordered to do is no less responsible for what happens by his hand than the people who give him the orders.

1. Heth didn't commit any terrorist act to become the had of the State, he just capitalized on the resentment the working class had for the "Caldari elite"

2. The State was in a quagmire, the workers were little better of then slaves that got paid just enough to survive and the economy was about to crash and burn under the neglect of the previous caretakers. While he is a monster Heth did save the State from ruin. Its also not surprising that the people allowed him to become Executor, at this point he hadn't done anything to make them doubt him.

3.The only way the State could have possibly held onto Caldari Prime was to use the Titan as a deterrent. It also stopped a full blown war breaking out between the State and the Federation, we should probably that your Elders invasion for that.

4. If it were that easy to kill Heth he would be dead already

5. Only the capsuleer community has the full story on what was going on when the navy was bombing those planets, and we are the minority, now the whole state has seen what Heth can really do.

2. If he saved the State from ruin and apparently made things so much better, then why were the workers protesting Kaalakoita in the first place? Why were the riots in New Caldari? Why is the media being stopped from further reporting the events? He screwed up the State, everyone knows it but he still thinks he can hide it.

No. Humans are not tools. They are living, thinking beings capable of individual judgement and discernment, and apparently one of the Home Guard pilots realised this and stood down rather than murder civilians. So many atrocities have been justified under the aegis of "I did what I was ordered to do." Soldiers are trained to follow orders but the soldier who doesn't spare even a moment's thought to what he's being ordered to do is no less responsible for what happens by his hand than the people who give him the orders.

Blaque's his own worst enemy in many ways. If he just left well enough alone and watched the Caldari deal with Caldari problems, then this would remain an internal affair in the State and the Federation need never become involved.

His words only serve to vindicate and legitimize the hard anti-Gallentean stance the CPD has taken since its foundation. In short, he's given Heth ammunition.

Somebody put it very well in the Summit last night: one of the clone troopers said "D'you see what that Blaque character's been sayin'? Very Amarrian of him."

This sort of thing is exactly why the State exists, why the war for Home happened, why the Provist jingoism sells to the Caldari people so well. Because the Federation's leaders do not respect our freedom to choose our own way of life, and never have.

Caldarit this point, the fate of Caldari Prime is in the Federation's hands, and this hard-line approach, especially at this time, is immensely foolish.

You either make concessions to the Federation, or you lose Caldari Prime again, either to Federation guns, or to starvation, disease, and decay.

Your analogy is deeply flawed.

The Federation hardline approach could well be a mission of mercy at this point. What is the food situation on Caldari Prime? Do the people there have power? How much damage to infastructure and production capabilities was done in the Caldari reclamation? How many people are currently alive on the planet? These are questions that need to be answered, and forgive me for doubting the ability of a deeply divided nation to keep a military stronghold deep within enemy lines supplied. You simply have to acknowledge that the current situation is untenable.

I'm personally in favor of a variation of the CONCORD mediated approach advocated elsewhere, but I'm also aware that what is technically possible is not always politically possible.

After an internal investigation into the events at New Caldari, Pyre Falcon Defence Combine has determined that the HomeGuard Officers who attacked the freighters were carrying out the express wishes of the Kaalakiota Board of Directors.
For that reason, and despite extenuating circumstances, Pyre Falcon Chairwoman Veikitamo Gesakaarin has reluctantly requested that I submit my resignation from Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01 within two weeks of this date.

Our actions have consequences and, as soldiers of the State, it is necessary for us to accept those consequences and bear them without complaint. I deeply apologise to Pyre Falcon for the stain on their record that I have caused by my actions, although I believe I acted in the only manner compatible with my honour.

Reconsider. The end will not justify the means.

So you ask the Federation to for-bare an "opportunity" that the State certainly didn't. Meaning taking advantage of circumstances to obtain by force what you coveted from a weakened and distracted advocacy. I fully understand what an assault on Caldari Prime will mean, but isn't what your asking of the Federation a bit hypocritical? In short your saying don't do what we did to get what you want. I want an honorable end to this madness as much as you Simon, but please.

The Federation fully recognized the Caldari State in the Treaty of Tierijev, and continued to respect its ultimate sovereignty up until the current hostilities.

Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".

Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".

Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".

The Caldari were never "partners" in the eyes of the Federation -- do not perpetuate an insult by claiming otherwise. The Gallente have always seen themselves some sort of moral guide for the rest of the galaxy, seen themselves as better than others, and because of that they feel themselves entitled to tell everyone else how to run their lives.

For the record we didn't lie, we seceded, pretty big difference.

We've all hard these arguments a thousand times already however, and this thread really isn't the place to be going into them again.

More revisionist history Pilot Scarlet? Of course they were partners, they co-founded the Federation.

Yes, just like the Minmatar willingly founded the Ammatar Mandate.

Are you normally so blinded by bias, or did you have to work at it?

Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".

Yes, just like the Minmatar willingly founded the Ammatar Mandate.

I am highly confused by that statement.

But the Minmatar never actually helped the Nefantar and the Amarr Empire to create the Mandate...

But the Minmatar never actually helped the Nefantar and the Amarr Empire to create the Mandate...

We've not heard anything from Home, because there's nothing to report. The State looks after its citizens.

Indeed it is
much like when the Gallente started bombarding Caldari prime after the Caldari seceeded from the Federation, where private individuals were singled out for punishment thanks to the position of thier government.
Do you not like the taste of your own medicine?

Sometimes at gunpoint, as recent events are showing. Look, there's been a lot of violence in the State recently. Your leader is a racist, and a racist terrorist group has been acting more openly since he took power. We have every right to be concerned about how conditions on Caldari Prime will play out.

Neither one of these questions are relevant if you read the history of what transpired.

Infighting is what keeps that Leviathan from glassing Gallente Prime, James.

Why don't you visit Caldari Prime then if your concerned about the conditions? nothing is stopping you and nothing stoped me.

You sure seem convinced that it can actually do it.

I can not since I lack a lot of determining factors in that equation.

I seem to remember several reports of gallente loyalist guerilla on Caldari Prime at the outbreak of war, and after.

Perhaps Mentas Blaque should refrain from trying to tell the Caldari State what is or isn't illegal. The Federation lost its right to command us to follow their idea of law when we won our independence. We will resolve this in our own way, for good or ill.

President Roden, when asked to comment on Blaque's statements, gave a terse answer, saying, GÇ£The military security of the Gallente Federation is a paramount priority for my administration. However, the internal matters of the Caldari are not something Director Blaque should openly discuss. He should deal with our internal affairs and allow the Caldari to deal with theirs.GÇ¥

Glad to see President Roden speak some sense. As much as Blaque has been blustering lately, I was starting to wonder who the President really was.

Then I hope this can be resolved quick enough to take the wind out of his sails.

I agree. Blaque does have a point though. If Heth's government falls, there's no way to predict what the crew of that Leviathan will do.

Has Heth been confirmed as the one who gave the order? Are there links to this story even taking place?

Heth was given his powers by the CONSENT of the caldari people. Not all of them, but a vast majority. He fought on the surface of Caldari Prime during the retaking, Risking his own life and limb to fight for what he believed in (to which he cannot clone into a new body, i might add). None of this has been confirmed as Heths work.


Until we have all the facts and evidence, i will remain skeptical, for all we know this was some Gallente black operation designed to frame our leader.

You people sicken me.

Has Heth been confirmed as the one who gave the order? Are there links to this story even taking place?

Heth was given his powers by the CONSENT of the caldari people. Not all of them, but a vast majority. He fought on the surface of Caldari Prime during the retaking, Risking his own life and limb to fight for what he believed in (to which he cannot clone into a new body, i might add). None of this has been confirmed as Heths work.


Until we have all the facts and evidence, i will remain skeptical, for all we know this was some Gallente black operation designed to frame our leader.

You people sicken me.

That is one issue of meritocracy. You can't necessarily trust the person advancing has everyone's best interest at heart. At least there is the pretense of such in democracy. But I'm not going to pretend I think democracy is infallible.

The State system must be at least a little populist, surely? Otherwise, it wouldn't reflect the will of the Caldari people, would it?

That is one issue of meritocracy. You can't necessarily trust the person advancing has everyone's best interest at heart. At least there is the pretense of such in democracy. But I'm not going to pretend I think democracy is infallible.

The State system must be at least a little populist, surely? Otherwise, it wouldn't reflect the will of the Caldari people, would it?

To hell with "the will of the people".

...

We, the people, the shareholders, the employees, and the managers, will demand results.

I do admire instability in any argument, but are you quite certain that you've thought your position through?