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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:43:00 -
[1]
So I dabbled in the DEV Blogs for a bit and was not pleased with what I read. Sure they are taking some responsiblity for all the problems in July, but now they are talking about new features.
CCP - You have had problems with the client, the server, missing items from as far back as beta, some of which you have known about for almost 2 years. Yet you persist in throwing out new stuff that only compounds the problems. POS's are still buggy. Corp tax is barely implemented, Client side lag is making fleet battles impossible.
The basic foundation of your game is in danger of rotting out - why don't you put Kali on hold until you get your house in order.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
MooKids
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:51:00 -
[2]
Ever think that maybe it is possible to do both at the same time?
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CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity. |
BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 01:53:00 -
[3]
If the last 2 years are indicative...?
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Claude Leon
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:05:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: MooKids
Ever think that maybe it is possible to do both at the same time?
This one MUST be a joke. If that the was the case they would have fixed the problems already.
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MooKids
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:07:00 -
[5]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
If the last 2 years are indicative...?
Really? I have seen some major improvements from the old days, servers becoming more stable (with a few problem periods aside) and fixes to major bugs. I would say that CCP is doing their job over there working on the major issues for us. POS's buggy? How so? Corp Tax? A minor issue. Client side lag? Maybe the clients need better computers.
And have you actually been playing for these past 2 years?
--------------------------------
CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity. |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:10:00 -
[6]
Here's what you'll see. Kali will be developed, we'll hear tidbits here and there, some big announcements, etc. The whole while, nothing new will be added to the game.
In the meantime, existing issues will still be addressed. By not adding new items, it makes it far easier for them to support the game as it is now, and continue to develop new content.
It will be ok. Just breathe.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Tekka
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Winterblink
Here's what you'll see. Kali will be developed, we'll hear tidbits here and there, some big announcements, etc. The whole while, nothing new will be added to the game.
In the meantime, existing issues will still be addressed. By not adding new items, it makes it far easier for them to support the game as it is now, and continue to develop new content.
It will be ok. Just breathe.
New comic.
now
gogogo
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.09 02:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tekka
New comic.
now
gogogo
I would, but I don't have Photoshop on this computer, and I'm out of town until Friday. :P
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.09 03:09:00 -
[9]
id like to see dual fixing and adding of existing promised featuers and some progress on kali
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Beringe
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Posted - 2005.08.09 03:13:00 -
[10]
I wonder if Oveur will show up in this thread and once again explain that development and bugfixing are done by different employees of CCP.
Seriously. They do both at the same time.
-------------------------------------------
"My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead."
"No, it's none of your business." |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.09 03:18:00 -
[11]
i wonder if he cares to explain the missing and half finished promised existing features in a dev blog might keep those quite types that are annoyed at half implemented ideas being bypassed fr new publicity strong features
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Archias Faux
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:04:00 -
[12]
test (and inadvertant bump)
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MooKids
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
If the last 2 years are indicative...?
Really? I have seen some major improvements from the old days, servers becoming more stable (with a few problem periods aside) and fixes to major bugs. I would say that CCP is doing their job over there working on the major issues for us. POS's buggy? How so? Corp Tax? A minor issue. Client side lag? Maybe the clients need better computers.
And have you actually been playing for these past 2 years?
June 2003
They know what the problem is with the client and lag - it was address with extreme detail last June. They just didn't do anything about it. Because of that, Fleet battles are huge dissapointments.
POS that can't defend themselves against a half dozen light drones.
Corp taxes? That has been a problems since beta...
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Beringe
I wonder if Oveur will show up in this thread and once again explain that development and bugfixing are done by different employees of CCP.
Seriously. They do both at the same time.
They most likely can, but the simple fact is that problems and promised content are not happening. Put everyone on getting it fixed and then think about adding content.
As it is now, all they are doing is dog piling issues and bugs ontop of more issues and bugs. Soon it will become unmanagable.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:15:00 -
[15]
Here is a perfect example of CCP knowing what is wrong, but not doing a thing about it...
Linkage
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:22:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 09/08/2005 05:24:04
What I've been hearing since beta and release:
The BPO for X is missing and will be added soon
Lag in fleet combat is a problem and will be fixed soon
InterBus is coming soon
Corporate tax will be implemented soon
Stop whining, we all know that Kali development should be second to stuff promised since Geminini, and we are still playing and paying because even with the missing promises it's still a F**king ACE game.
Why the hell do you think CCP has (tm) behind "soon" everytime it's posted here ? BECAUSE we always have to wait and see the difference between promised and delivered.
CCP delivers a LOT of what they promise, but with every release, the things promised since RELEASE seem to disappear into insignificicance and NEW bugs appear related to the NEW features.
CCP please fix and deliver the stuff you have been promising since the pre-castor era (gemini server anyone?), I think I've paid to enough (I won't take it upon myself to say "we" here) since release to at least ask for this "simple" (?) request.
EDIT: A few typos.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.08.09 05:49:00 -
[17]
Well, I'm not sure where to start.. so I'll start somewhere.
First, calm down and take a god damned chill pill. "Fix EVE before adding new content!" - what the hell does that mean? You can't add either with a single patch, or two, or three. POS might be buggy to you.. but they still do their job for hundreds of people. Sure they could be better, but we have tech 2, and isn't that the whole point?
Second, corp tax was put in with the last patch. Our corp with a dozen members has 250mil in the wallet, I'm pretty sure its working out for the bigger corps. And fleet battles have been improving since retail.
Do you remember when cans, drones and missiles would lag your graphics out totally? I do, and I also remember not being able to have a 10v10. Then it was fixed and people started whining about not being able to do 40v40, now they whine about not being able to do 120v120. Short of tripling the server cluster and optimizing _everything_ you wont see that. Both are planned for Kali too, and I'm sure by the time we get it, people will whine about the lack of 250v250 fights or something.
The biggest thing I've got to whine about are instas and the short duration of pvp.. both have been around for a long time, or forever. I knew they were problems then too, but they were only a minor annoyance compared to having entire ships, guns, and races totally useless for anything but mining. Or having ravens virtually impossible to tackle, or the 250k SP alts in blackbirds jamming up your 25mil sp pvp character from 150km with impunity every single time.
I should probably be the last person to warn others about ranting on the forums, but at least I get into the details of why something sucks and what can be done. Saying "fix this!" and walking away casually.. what do you think thats going to do?
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2005.08.09 06:07:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 09/08/2005 06:09:09
For whatever it's worth, I think they called everyone back to work a week early. A while back, there was a post explaining why devs weren't posting anymore, and the deal was that they were on their pre-crunch vacations till the 15th of August.
Yet they got back on the 8th of August.
Probably because of the whole drones vs. POSes issue.
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Makhan
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Posted - 2005.08.09 06:51:00 -
[19]
we all know that bugfixes will happen but it is true that they will take a long time.
a few things that irk me to no end:
WHERE IS THE COMET MINEING, HUH? HUH?
WHERE IS THE GAS MINEING EHHH?
enough with the pvp content, they have enough FOR NOW. Dont forget that not everybody in the game is a pvp maniak with a billion isk.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2005.08.09 07:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
Originally by: MooKids
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
If the last 2 years are indicative...?
Really? I have seen some major improvements from the old days, servers becoming more stable (with a few problem periods aside) and fixes to major bugs. I would say that CCP is doing their job over there working on the major issues for us. POS's buggy? How so? Corp Tax? A minor issue. Client side lag? Maybe the clients need better computers.
And have you actually been playing for these past 2 years?
June 2003
They know what the problem is with the client and lag - it was address with extreme detail last June. They just didn't do anything about it. Because of that, Fleet battles are huge dissapointments.
POS that can't defend themselves against a half dozen light drones.
Corp taxes? That has been a problems since beta...
Actually that problem with the client WAS addressed already. You might be surprised by this but there is more than one cause for the lag in fleet battles!
The POS drone thing is a bug that was discovered just a week ago, the devs just got back from vacations this week. Do the math.
Corp tax has been a problem for a long time, and it's been put on the backburner for a long time because it's really not important. If your corp needs money from its members you send out a corp mail asking for it.
The problem with not releasing new content until the bugs are fixed is that there will ALWAYS be more bugs to fix, eventually you just need to start developing some content as well as fixing bugs. If they don't do this they'll be fixing bugs for the next 3 or 4 months and everyone will start whining about lack of new content.
____________________________________________________________________
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Valerie Ganor
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Posted - 2005.08.09 07:22:00 -
[21]
I would like to see all those small bugs squashed first before we hit kali.
Seeding of missing tech1 bpo's
Drones overhaul
Reversed Succubus
Comet mining
System wide belts
Formal Contracts
etc.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Win the crowd...
GFX Corp is recruiting! Contact Will Yokes ingame or post on the forums! |
Basileus
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:02:00 -
[22]
Getting new content in as an isk sink is vital to the business of CCP. If they don't get new items for people to invest in, most get rich an bored. And quit the game. Which means less money in the pockets of CCP's fat cats.
I'm sure that the customer base on the other hand is far more interested in a smoothly running game. The annoying cycle of patch-problems-fixes is exemplary of CCP's attitude towards customer satisfaction.
I reckon it is this attitude which has caused player numbers to be stable for as long as I know, and I've played for more than two years. Eve has the potential to grow, as the concept of the game is very well thought of. Unfortunately the execution of this brilliant concept is feeble at best.
An no, I'm not quitting. So bog off all you flamers.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Valerie Ganor
I would like to see all those small bugs squashed first before we hit kali.
Reversed Succubus
Nah keep that one in. It's a great bug.
-----------------------------------------------
Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:53:00 -
[24]
Some of them missing Exodus Features would be cool before they start thinking up a dousen new features. 
------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Drilla
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Posted - 2005.08.09 11:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Makhan
we all know that bugfixes will happen but it is true that they will take a long time.
a few things that irk me to no end:
WHERE IS THE COMET MINEING, HUH? HUH?
WHERE IS THE GAS MINEING EHHH?
enough with the pvp content, they have enough FOR NOW. Dont forget that not everybody in the game is a pvp maniak with a billion isk.
Carebears quit the game everytime there's changes to their perfect little world (missiles changes anyone? Level 4 agent nerfing anyone?)
PVP'ers adapt and keep playing. I wonder how is the most loyal customers 
EVE System Security - Killboard (still early alpha) |
JP Beauregard
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Posted - 2005.08.09 11:10:00 -
[26]
One of these days, on a rainy afternoon before this month expires and my subscription vanishes into the void once more, I will go through old patch notes and list how often the same problem has been fixed - and wasn't.
Just for educational purposes, mind you.
JP Beauregard
==========================
Thinking generally ruins the EVEperience.
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Da'Lorien
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Posted - 2005.08.09 11:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Makhan
enough with the pvp content, they have enough FOR NOW. Dont forget that not everybody in the game is a pvp maniak with a billion isk.
signed.
--
Da'Lorien - a space monkey |
Liquid Metal
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Posted - 2005.08.09 11:26:00 -
[28]
I hate people who have nothing better to do than whine. I've played this game since beta. Believe me when i say, a lot of things have been fixed. At some points during beta, the game was barely playable.
Personally I feel CCP are doing a great job, considering the depth and complexity of the game.
It doesnt take a genius to realise that with every new content update, theres always a few teething problems. Considering the scale of the game, i'd say it was pretty damn playable.
It just ruins it for people when idiots start *****ing for no reason because its something they feel they have to do to fill the empty void thats in their lives.
Keep up the good work CCP. Not all of us are idiots.
"A strong man stands tall against all others, everything else is just a delusion for the weak.."
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2005.08.09 12:47:00 -
[29]
CCP: FIX What is broke now. DONT add more bugs to the game. Yes you have had over two years to fix the minor bugs.
Corp tax
Brokers
Stockmarkets
POS controls
Drone controls
etc...etc.etc
Leave the new stuff untill the old stuff you have used as bait is implemented and debuged!
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box. |
Darlan Flame
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:04:00 -
[30]
An extreamly large amount of CCP has been on vacation for the last few weeks. You have not seen any bug patches during this time because quite simply, there were no developers to make them.
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Ikvar
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:15:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Makhan
WHERE IS THE COMET MINEING, HUH? HUH?
WHERE IS THE GAS MINEING EHHH?
WHERE IS THE FORUM SPELLCHECKER?! 
__________________
Ikvar & Sons Legal, WE WILL FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS!
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DJTheBaron
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:35:00 -
[32]
Kali is a big content patch, like an expansion right?
Well that will need numerous bug fixes, rewriting and so forth.
According to oveur content people cant code, so let them content their models, animations, textures, stats and all that fun stuff as much as they want, just dont take any programing away from bugfixing the server, and client and making the eve client more stable and less hungry for resources, since it seems still to be pretty inefficent.
__________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.08.09 13:51:00 -
[33]
Originally by: MooKids
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
If the last 2 years are indicative...?
Really? I have seen some major improvements from the old days, servers becoming more stable (with a few problem periods aside) and fixes to major bugs. I would say that CCP is doing their job over there working on the major issues for us. POS's buggy? How so? Corp Tax? A minor issue. Client side lag? Maybe the clients need better computers.
And have you actually been playing for these past 2 years?
I agree. 2 years has gone past since I stepped into EVE and while I was fustrated around January 2004, they have totally regained any and all confidense in the develop of this supernatural game. I even respec tomB's weapon direction. </me wishes she hadn't been so hard on the guy>
--------------------
The Nest
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Drilla
Originally by: Makhan
we all know that bugfixes will happen but it is true that they will take a long time.
a few things that irk me to no end:
WHERE IS THE COMET MINEING, HUH? HUH?
WHERE IS THE GAS MINEING EHHH?
enough with the pvp content, they have enough FOR NOW. Dont forget that not everybody in the game is a pvp maniak with a billion isk.
Carebears quit the game everytime there's changes to their perfect little world (missiles changes anyone? Level 4 agent nerfing anyone?)
PVP'ers adapt and keep playing. I wonder how is the most loyal customers
Figures of players leaving, please, and their self-declared occupation and reasons, too.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:19:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 09/08/2005 16:20:33
Recent server problems are worrying - nobody sane could say the server problems have been less and less common in the past year.
The biggest gripe I have with Eve is that there's still:
1) GUI bugs
2) Parts of the GUI don't fit neatly enough together (I think the buttons/radio buttons look really poor now especially with the lighting/highlights) and doesn't look "solid" (not opaque but well-made).
3) Module iconsare fuzzy (could be my GFX card, I admit) and some ofd them are just plain missing.
4) Inability to delete evemails, argh!
5) Is it me or does putting modules on a ship seem to take longer than ever? Often long delays while a module activates even without any lag issues
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Brolly
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:13:00 -
[36]
I'm not too excitted about new content or kali tbh, usually there are a load of cool things but most of them don't make it in, those cool things that do make it in are usually not quite as good as they could be and i'm still having fun with what's already in the game :)
On reading content notes to come i'll take qauter of the cool things out. I'll then devide that by 2 and see half content as stuff which may never arive and the other half as stuff which doesn't quite cut it
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Thyro
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
So I dabbled in the DEV Blogs for a bit and was not pleased with what I read. Sure they are taking some responsiblity for all the problems in July, but now they are talking about new features.
CCP - You have had problems with the client, the server, missing items from as far back as beta, some of which you have known about for almost 2 years. Yet you persist in throwing out new stuff that only compounds the problems. POS's are still buggy. Corp tax is barely implemented, Client side lag is making fleet battles impossible.
The basic foundation of your game is in danger of rotting out - why don't you put Kali on hold until you get your house in order.
Just a note...
For long time that CCP adopted the same policy used by Microsoft 
MS deploy new versions where some unfixed bugs on previous versions are addressed and solved. But at same time, add new features which lead for more bugs, then they patch or fixed on next version
The Microsoft excuse is a good one... Whatever you like or not, new software even if bugged generates a good income. If the new features make users dream about the new package, then any user will eat any s*hit given what ever the problems that piece of software has.
Same happens with CCP
If issues were addressed and not solved with patches. Then adding new versions where some of those critical issues are solved and adding more features (even if are bugged --- lets say --- not properly coded either tested) would shut up most of the players and inclusively will attract more players. Again new versions = $
Core players might remember bugs of previous versions and scream about them. However most of core player are vice already so not much a problem there! For most of players/potential players each feature is like a kid's candy where everyone will one day be proud to have and show to all that reached that point.
However and not going of topic with software bugs and new versions.
If the above does not happen in CCP then must be this...
Must be some new wave of developer mentality to justify their job... fixing bugs and writing new code without quality and not tested enough.
I personally hate this new mentality that is writing code on the fly, code that is not tested enough (all aspects and interactions) and rush it into production. Just because some YES manager that has his watch ticking or felt his two OO squeezed by a greedy CEO avid for more $$
I prefer the old school... make things properly on 1st attempt, fully tested to catch potential issues and re-test to make sure that all aspects were covered. Only then deploy into production once insured that doesn't fell apart during the implementation/upgrade/patch.
Anyway the above might be ambiguous to someone not in the industry but this is what happens. What ever we like or not; some cases developers are to be blamed. But in most of the cases $$$ speak even lauder overwriting any kind of best practice or anyone that stands on the way.
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Thyro
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Ikvar
Originally by: Makhan
WHERE IS THE COMET MINEING, HUH? HUH?
WHERE IS THE GAS MINEING EHHH?
WHERE IS THE FORUM SPELLCHECKER?!
HE WAS TOO EXCITED WRITING THAT POST. Wasn't he?
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:34:00 -
[39]
Not gonna say the game hasn't improved or any of that gibberish, but one thing is for sure: If CCP wouldn't promise features prior to every single one of their big updates and then not deliver those features there would be no whining about it in the first place.
Personally speaking I find it hard to understand how project management can approve the announcement of feature X when the implementation of that feature is not solid and at least 95% ready for launch.
This makes it look like CCP is employing an "eyewash" policy and tbh I don't really think they need any of that.
It makes them look unprofessional.
Mai's Idealog |
Cyleth
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:39:00 -
[40]
The random colours of overview is most likely the most annoying thing I have ever seen in EVE.
And they should finally put in the filtering of neutral ships from overview.
my 0,02isk 
--
Nobody stays behind |
Psymon R
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Makhan
we all know that bugfixes will happen but it is true that they will take a long time.
a few things that irk me to no end:
WHERE IS THE COMET MINEING, HUH? HUH?
WHERE IS THE GAS MINEING EHHH?
enough with the pvp content, they have enough FOR NOW. Dont forget that not everybody in the game is a pvp maniak with a billion isk.
OK yes, if you look at the Exodus features page they mention comets and gas clouds however they never actually promised them, as the page does also state:
Quote:
Note : Some of these are conceptual designs that have not gone through thorough playtesting and are all subject to change. CCP reserves all rights to change, in part or completely the designs presented here.
I must say though, it might be a good idea on the part of the devs if they were to remove any features given on there that have not made it into exodus (unless I suppose they were planning on putting them in before kali, but as Oveur said there will be no new features I guess this won't be the case!)
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Galk
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Posted - 2005.08.09 18:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Drilla
[
Carebears quit the game everytime there's changes to their perfect little world (missiles changes anyone? Level 4 agent nerfing anyone?)
PVP'ers adapt and keep playing. I wonder how is the most loyal customers
You know the realy great thing.....
There will allways be more 'cearbears' playing this game than the haters
You obviously missed the thousand and one whine threads when they have nerfed numerious mods that played a big part in peoples pvp strategy over the last 2 and a bit years.. and the obvious we quit posts from some people that at the time couldn't get over it.....
*btw most don't actualy quit...
Imho a great thing
--------
23 |
Fortior
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Posted - 2005.08.09 19:13:00 -
[43]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
Here is a perfect example of CCP knowing what is wrong, but not doing a thing about it...
Linkage
Ehrm, Birdieboy, did you happen to see the message the Mod left in that thread as he locked it? Or did you happen to see the dates of all the posts? Bringing sound, good arguments is all fine and dandy, raising the dead threads is not. It only serves as a flamebait.
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.08.09 19:24:00 -
[44]
I vote lets put Kali in now! We need as many whiners quiting as possible.
Cold War was the "I hate the missle changes" patch
Kali will be the "R&D agents are too hard please go back to the lottery"
--------------------------
Good thing PVP pilots dont do that! They are "initiating strategic military plans of aggression". They are not logging off to avoid an overwhelming fight! |
Wraeththu
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Posted - 2005.08.09 19:29:00 -
[45]
The world of Eve is a LOT better than it was even a year ago. It's 10 times better than it was 2 years ago, in both stability, content, player interaction ect. Content and Stability need to go hand in hand. little of this, little of that. The Castor release schedule was far too slow. I prefer their newer tendencies a lot more.
I mean, I have some big gripes about Eve, but it's definetly not to do with stability or content vs QA ratio.
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danneh
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Posted - 2005.08.09 19:39:00 -
[46]
Id like my overview too work not show my corp members as war targets.
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Wraeththu
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Posted - 2005.08.09 19:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Thyro
Anyway the above might be ambiguous to someone not in the industry but this is what happens. What ever we like or not; some cases developers are to be blamed. But in most of the cases $$$ speak even lauder overwriting any kind of best practice or anyone that stands on the way.
Actually if you're in the "industry" then you should know better. I program medical software. If I make a mistake, there's a chance a RL person will die from it. Unsurprisingly, we're quiet careful about our code. (not to mention we have govermental orgs breathing down our throats and 'dropping by for a visit'/audit all the time). As a result, our release schedules are pretty lengthy. Our QA schedule is usually longer than the development schedule (including design, creation, unit testing, and documentation)
An adoption by CCP to a zero defect policy (or at least a zero non-acceptable defect policy) would result in release times 2 to 3 times as lengthy. Which would mean we, right now, wouldn't even be up to Shiva. We'd still be rocking Castor code.
Who would still be playing this game if we were still back with the castor codeset? I'm betting considerably few. Definetly considerably fewer than we have now with the current release schedule.
It's a game, you need to relax some
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R Dan
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Posted - 2005.08.09 20:07:00 -
[48]
As Has been said a Gazillion times, its 2 different teams, call them:
Projects and Support if you like. they are 2 completely different sets of people....
Bite me....for i taste good :)
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.08.09 20:40:00 -
[49]
tbh, the last 3-4 months of castor was how eve supposed to work
seperated corp mails (now they don`t delete), stable servers, stable clients, less laggy client (mail anyone?) etc etc etc
/me waves 2 cancelations at ccp and offline money making bpo researching
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.09 20:49:00 -
[50]
CCP want us to acculmulate hundreds of corp evemails without the CEOs being able to delete - everyone spam em up cause it will lag it andm ake em fix it.
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Corey Grim
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Posted - 2005.08.10 08:50:00 -
[51]
ummm.....ummmm...
i see only 2 major problems/bugs/whatever in EVE atm.
1. overview still messes colors (altho not so often anymore) but i dont like to accidently shoot my friend down..
2.CTD¦s: LOT of players have ctd¦s when jumping between win and EVE (alt-tab, or win key) this is the most dangerous and annoying bug.
im not whining coz CCP is doing great job fixing things and adding new stuff. but these 2 issues should be their primary atm. imo if they dont fix those before adding kali (and i mean separate hotfix) it MIGHT come HUGE problem after kali is added. lag is one thing to discuss yes but what i have seen CCP is doing something to it all the time. so ppl stop those "my wallet blinks but no transactions has happened" whines
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.08.10 11:14:00 -
[52]
Lets get one thing straight first. Kali - as an expansion - includes not only new features but a number of rewrites in code.
Examples are a new Turret system and a new Effects system. Our renderer is getting an overhaul, the sound sub-system will get stabilization work, drones and other high server cpu systems are getting optimization etc.
For short, Kali is a new code branch, where we utilize the fact that it gets sufficient testing allowing us to rewrite or do major overhauls to current systems, something which is impossible to do on a regular patch release schedule.
Hence, people that are unsatisfied with a number of bugs in EVE should rejoice that we are starting work on the Kali branch, because it means things like 2 of our programmers will start working on the new Turrets and Effects systems.
I should probably blog this, this seems to be a common misunderstanding with Kali.
_____________________________
I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.08.10 11:16:00 -
[53]
Fl... Blog It!
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
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DJTheBaron
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Posted - 2005.08.10 11:29:00 -
[54]
thats all well and good, hey kali might be the best content and code soloution evarrrrrrrrrr
but its going to take over 6 months, probably well over
we dont want to wait that long to have a stable gaming enviroment
i'd say that is the main concern
__________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.10 12:32:00 -
[55]
I love how people focus on comet and gas cloud mining. That's two features that didn't make it when what, 20 or so ended up being completed? And that's only the major stuff, Exodus included hundreds of tweaks, enhancements, and improvements.
So ok, comets and gas mining aren't in. I'm pretty sure that's for a good reason (balance issues, bugs, etc).
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Loka
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Posted - 2005.08.10 13:03:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Oveur
Examples are a new Turret system and a new Effects system.
Dont scare me pls, i just got used to the current Turretsystem ;P
Originally by: Oveur
Our renderer is getting an overhaul, the sound sub-system will get stabilization work, drones and other high server cpu systems are getting optimization etc.
I heared from others, that the sound in EVE is awsome. Sad but true, Sound/Music is off from start, when iam playing EVE and want to play lagfree. :) Dont get me wrong the game is buityfull, but everyone i showed said same. "WOW awsome graphic, but where is the sound?" Me:"Off, i cant play with sound, when fighting :("
Originally by: Oveur
For short, Kali is a new code branch, where we utilize the fact that it gets sufficient testing allowing us to rewrite or do major overhauls to current systems, something which is impossible to do on a regular patch release schedule.
Hence, people that are unsatisfied with a number of bugs in EVE should rejoice that we are starting work on the Kali branch, because it means things like 2 of our programmers will start working on the new Turrets and Effects systems.
I should probably blog this, this seems to be a common misunderstanding with Kali.
Iam curious and excited ... give it to me baby ... ah ah ...
_____________________________________
Dead or Alive
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.08.10 13:18:00 -
[57]
I think Oveur said a new turret and effect system he meant the graphics & calculations side of it, as in to try and reduce the lag when multiple ships are involved. The ctrl/alt/shift t+e that was brought in was a stop gap til they could rework the way the game calculated everything. He didnt mean a new system as in the sig radius/tracking thing etc etc
As for sound, ive played with sound on all the time and have never had any problems with it
The GUI works fine for me and looks much better imo, a lot more functional. As for the overview, sort ya priorities out, this fixes the gang members showing as war target.
Do it like this:
Turn a low priority off (so it doesnt show at all). I used players with bounties for this as im not interested in knowing if they have one
Then place war targets underneath that
then horrible standing
then bad standing
then however u see fit after that. After doing this i have NEVER had anything show up incorrectly
Forums: Sharks * MC |
SpaceDrake Storyteller
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Posted - 2005.08.10 13:35:00 -
[58]
Oveur, I think you misunderstood what some people are saying.
Yes, the idea of an overhauled renderer makes me (and everyone else I bet) sexy on the inside. But there are bugs - fairly critical bugs - that need addressing ASAP. The overview comes to mind prominently. Are you saying that we'll need to wait some six months for these issues to be addressed? That's what people are worried about, I think.
Oh, and can we get confirmation that Kali's working title is "The Great War"?
Please? 
--------------
What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?
Player of the character "Lucca Deradi." Former player of "Andre Ricard." |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.08.10 13:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: SpaceDrake Storyteller
Oveur, I think you misunderstood what some people are saying.
Yes, the idea of an overhauled renderer makes me (and everyone else I bet) sexy on the inside. But there are bugs - fairly critical bugs - that need addressing ASAP. The overview comes to mind prominently. Are you saying that we'll need to wait some six months for these issues to be addressed? That's what people are worried about, I think.
That's a BugFix. They always have priority
[Come to Daddy]
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.08.10 14:26:00 -
[60]
Originally by: SpaceDrake Storyteller
Oveur, I think you misunderstood what some people are saying.
Yes, the idea of an overhauled renderer makes me (and everyone else I bet) sexy on the inside. But there are bugs - fairly critical bugs - that need addressing ASAP. The overview comes to mind prominently. Are you saying that we'll need to wait some six months for these issues to be addressed? That's what people are worried about, I think.
Oh, and can we get confirmation that Kali's working title is "The Great War"?
Please?
do you just read the DEV's post and ignore every1 elses? I told you, in the post about yours, how to fix the overview
Forums: Sharks * MC |
SpaceDrake Storyteller
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Posted - 2005.08.10 15:02:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Eyeshadow
do you just read the DEV's post and ignore every1 elses? I told you, in the post about yours, how to fix the overview
Actually, phonecalls and whatnot delayed my post, so you posted that right before I hit "reply."
However, my point stands. We shouldn't have to rely on workarounds to get around a bug. Even if it's fixable in-client, CCP should make an effort to fix it.
And Discorp, the concern here is that CCP will SUSPEND bugfixes to work on Kali. That's what the dev blog sounds like.
--------------
What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?
Player of the character "Lucca Deradi." Former player of "Andre Ricard." |
Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.08.10 15:24:00 -
[62]
Originally by: SpaceDrake Storyteller
Originally by: Eyeshadow
do you just read the DEV's post and ignore every1 elses? I told you, in the post about yours, how to fix the overview
Actually, phonecalls and whatnot delayed my post, so you posted that right before I hit "reply."
However, my point stands. We shouldn't have to rely on workarounds to get around a bug. Even if it's fixable in-client, CCP should make an effort to fix it.
And Discorp, the concern here is that CCP will SUSPEND bugfixes to work on Kali. That's what the dev blog sounds like.
my apologies on sounding harsh then
tbh, workarounds are better than nothing and im quite happy to do a one off thing that takes 5 minutes and then everything is sorted forever
Forums: Sharks * MC |
Oz Draconis
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Posted - 2005.08.10 15:26:00 -
[63]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
CCP - You have had problems with the client, the server, missing items from as far back as beta, some of which you have known about for almost 2 years. Yet you persist in throwing out new stuff that only compounds the problems. POS's are still buggy. Corp tax is barely implemented, Client side lag is making fleet battles impossible.
AGREED!
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Corey Grim
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Posted - 2005.08.14 23:29:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Eyeshadow
Do it like this:
Turn a low priority off (so it doesnt show at all). I used players with bounties for this as im not interested in knowing if they have one
Then place war targets underneath that
then horrible standing
then bad standing
then however u see fit after that. After doing this i have NEVER had anything show up incorrectly
THANK YOU my friends own their life to u
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Frank Horrigan
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Posted - 2005.08.15 00:22:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Oveur
Lets get one thing straight first. Kali - as an expansion - includes not only new features but a number of rewrites in code.
Examples are a new Turret system and a new Effects system. Our renderer is getting an overhaul, the sound sub-system will get stabilization work, drones and other high server cpu systems are getting optimization etc.
For short, Kali is a new code branch, where we utilize the fact that it gets sufficient testing allowing us to rewrite or do major overhauls to current systems, something which is impossible to do on a regular patch release schedule.
Hence, people that are unsatisfied with a number of bugs in EVE should rejoice that we are starting work on the Kali branch, because it means things like 2 of our programmers will start working on the new Turrets and Effects systems.
I should probably blog this, this seems to be a common misunderstanding with Kali.
does this mean that when you shoot and miss, the laser or projectile will not actuily hit the ship?
like in nexus the jupiter incident.. Make eve look exactly like that please ^^
the sheilds were lovely too
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Saladin XIII
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Posted - 2005.08.15 00:23:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Frank Horrigan
Originally by: Oveur
Lets get one thing straight first. Kali - as an expansion - includes not only new features but a number of rewrites in code.
Examples are a new Turret system and a new Effects system. Our renderer is getting an overhaul, the sound sub-system will get stabilization work, drones and other high server cpu systems are getting optimization etc.
For short, Kali is a new code branch, where we utilize the fact that it gets sufficient testing allowing us to rewrite or do major overhauls to current systems, something which is impossible to do on a regular patch release schedule.
Hence, people that are unsatisfied with a number of bugs in EVE should rejoice that we are starting work on the Kali branch, because it means things like 2 of our programmers will start working on the new Turrets and Effects systems.
I should probably blog this, this seems to be a common misunderstanding with Kali.
does this mean that when you shoot and miss, the laser or projectile will not actuily hit the ship?
like in nexus the jupiter incident.. Make eve look exactly like that please ^^
the sheilds were lovely too
you people really are incompitent
he means they are re-doing the effects system so it isn't as cpu/graphically heavy and will (hopefully) reduce the amount of lag
and this thread is old and already there is a devblog about it...go read it
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Saladin XIII
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Posted - 2005.08.15 00:26:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Frank Horrigan
the sheilds were lovely too
and the effects re-write is all backend..maybe a few new effects by why use new when we have nice ones already?
it's just a waste of time when they could be working on new effects for planetary flight, etc...
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Par'Gellen
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Posted - 2005.08.15 00:35:00 -
[68]
I read most of this post but to be honest I got tired of the people spouting crap when they have obviously never even seen a block of code. Let me put it in simple terms for all you guys and for the CCP devs that claim they can do this even though it goes against all things sane...
You ALWAYS fix the bugs before adding new things unless you are intent on destroying your own product. Not to mention how incompetent it makes you look when it appears that you can't fix them because you are focusing on shiny new content that is also filled with bugs.
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Layrex
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Posted - 2005.08.15 00:44:00 -
[69]
I often wonder what the devs do all day. It takes 5 months to make a couple of dreadnaughts and freighters and call it an expansion pack?
------------------------------
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Idara
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Posted - 2005.08.15 00:50:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Layrex
I often wonder what the devs do all day. It takes 5 months to make a couple of dreadnaughts and freighters and call it an expansion pack?
Cold War was an expansion?
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2005.08.15 02:36:00 -
[71]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
Here is a perfect example of CCP knowing what is wrong, but not doing a thing about it...
Linkage
I seem to recall a lot of client optimizations happening after those observations. But mebbe I'm crazy...
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Orius Nix
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Posted - 2005.08.15 03:22:00 -
[72]
From what i can see cosmo is not finished yet. I agree kali needs to be put on hold.
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Layrex
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Posted - 2005.08.15 03:59:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Idara
Originally by: Layrex
I often wonder what the devs do all day. It takes 5 months to make a couple of dreadnaughts and freighters and call it an expansion pack?
Cold War was an expansion?
According to PC Gamer, yeah.
------------------------------
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Dsanta2345
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Posted - 2005.08.15 06:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: MooKids
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
If the last 2 years are indicative...?
Really? I have seen some major improvements from the old days, servers becoming more stable (with a few problem periods aside) and fixes to major bugs. I would say that CCP is doing their job over there working on the major issues for us. POS's buggy? How so? Corp Tax? A minor issue. Client side lag? Maybe the clients need better computers.
And have you actually been playing for these past 2 years?
yes for the years(on other accounts)
for other, my computer had issues until something was done pre-weekend, it was like they put up a server side patch and fixed my issue from july.(i hard booted(i blamed the game on causing a driver to crash me(ccp said that their game dont have errors)) all the time and had the background pop over my ship), but it is fixed now.
oh and the classic ccp response:
"There are no bugs in the game code that cause computers to crash in
general or this wouldn¦t be extremely rare as it is."
--[GM]Guard
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ThunderGodThor
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Posted - 2005.08.15 09:10:00 -
[75]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Well, I'm not sure where to start.. so I'll start somewhere.
First, calm down and take a god damned chill pill. "Fix EVE before adding new content!" - what the hell does that mean? You can't add either with a single patch, or two, or three. POS might be buggy to you.. but they still do their job for hundreds of people. Sure they could be better, but we have tech 2, and isn't that the whole point?
Second, corp tax was put in with the last patch. Our corp with a dozen members has 250mil in the wallet, I'm pretty sure its working out for the bigger corps. And fleet battles have been improving since retail.
Do you remember when cans, drones and missiles would lag your graphics out totally? I do, and I also remember not being able to have a 10v10. Then it was fixed and people started whining about not being able to do 40v40, now they whine about not being able to do 120v120. Short of tripling the server cluster and optimizing _everything_ you wont see that. Both are planned for Kali too, and I'm sure by the time we get it, people will whine about the lack of 250v250 fights or something.
The biggest thing I've got to whine about are instas and the short duration of pvp.. both have been around for a long time, or forever. I knew they were problems then too, but they were only a minor annoyance compared to having entire ships, guns, and races totally useless for anything but mining. Or having ravens virtually impossible to tackle, or the 250k SP alts in blackbirds jamming up your 25mil sp pvp character from 150km with impunity every single time.
I should probably be the last person to warn others about ranting on the forums, but at least I get into the details of why something sucks and what can be done. Saying "fix this!" and walking away casually.. what do you think thats going to do?
As of late DigitalCommunist we have taken a step back in that we cant even do a 40v40 which BOB can attest too. Did one just a few days ago in 4c-b7x we were soo lagged couldnt tell up from down and had to wait minutes for modulails to actvate. Every one *****ed about all the drones every one had out that it cause the lag. If drones were the cause some thing needs to be looked into then to reduce the load.
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kieron
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Posted - 2005.08.15 11:36:00 -
[76]
*snip*
Originally by: SpaceDrake Storyteller
The concern here is that CCP will SUSPEND bugfixes to work on Kali. That's what the dev blog sounds like.
Suspending bug fixes to work on new content is something that will not occur. QA is an ongoing process, regardless of whether the Design team is working on new features or not.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.15 13:56:00 -
[77]
ôAlso, take a look at the Known Issues page. It has been updated and a number of the concerns in this thread have been addressed.ö
What about the gang assist modules? It looks like QA just didnÆt bother to test them as there are some really bad mistakes and bugs. Could these be fixed soon please.
Siege warfair link- active shields, needs armored warfare specialist lvl 1. Why do we need an amour skill to use a shield module?
BC say they give a 90% reduction in CPU needs but 5000 û 90% is 500. Yet when you fit the module they only take up 50. Which is good as 500 is too high to be useable, but a lot of people are not using the modules, as they think its 500CPU.
Siege warfair link- harmonizing needs siege warfare specialist lvl 5 (over 30days training) shouldnÆt that be lvl 1 (30mins training) like the other 11 modules?
Basically shield user cannot use 2 out of the 3 modules.
I do somethingÆs wonder about QA. I understand sometimes bugs slip by but the above bugs are simple checks that QA should have spotted in 5 minuets. Gang modules are a very good idea and I cannot wait to play with them but its a shame they have so many bugs.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Par'Gellen
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Posted - 2005.08.15 15:08:00 -
[78]
Do the devs even test the code they write or do they just write it and cross their fingers? Most of the bugs we are all upset about are SIMPLE AND SHOULD HAVE NEVER MADE IT TO QA IN THE FIRST PLACE! You can point to the test server all day long but that in no way excuses you from writing bad code and then just handing it to someone else to test.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.15 15:13:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Do the devs even test the code they write or do they just write it and cross their fingers? Most of the bugs we are all upset about are SIMPLE AND SHOULD HAVE NEVER MADE IT TO QA IN THE FIRST PLACE! You can point to the test server all day long but that in no way excuses you from writing bad code and then just handing it to someone else to test.
Were you in there testing them on Singularity? There's a reason we have a test server. If you think you can do it better than them, get in there and prove it. That's why it's there in the first place.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.15 18:43:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Pottsey on 15/08/2005 18:50:07
ôWere you in there testing them on Singularity? There's a reason we have a test server. If you think you can do it better than them, get in there and prove it. That's why it's there in the first place.ö
I know that wasnt directed at me but I spend a lot of time testing on the test server but still the QA team are very hit and miss. Sometimes they will respond very fast and fix problems you report. Other times like the gang asset modules you have loads of people reporting the problem and the problem still makes its way to the live server then it doesnÆt get fixed on the live server and does not get added to the list of known problems.
Take the new shield skills and new shield extenders, well not so new now. I was very impressed with the way the QA team responded to problems and complaints. Yet we got the total opposite with gang assist modules and stealth bombers.
I can understand unforeseen bugs popping up like jump drives not jumping intermittently. But bugs like amour skills on new shield modules should never make there way to the live server, yet they are doing.
We need a better way to know what bugs have been reported, what bugs have been fixed and what bugs are on the list to be fixed. Take the gang assist modules as an example they are not in any lists of known bugs or list of fixed bugs. Does that mean the QA team never got the bug reports? Do I need to resend bug reports, or just wait and if I have to wait how long?
It would also be good if when new features/content is added like gang assist modules we could get a message to please test these. Half the time people on the test server dont know whats new in a patch and dont know what to test.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Winterblink
|
Posted - 2005.08.15 18:48:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôWere you in there testing them on Singularity? There's a reason we have a test server. If you think you can do it better than them, get in there and prove it. That's why it's there in the first place.ö
I know that wasnt directed at me but I spend a lot of time testing on the test server but still the QA team are very hit and miss. Sometimes they will respond very fast and fix problems you report. Other times like the gang asset modules you have loads of propel reporting the problem and the problem still makes its way to the live server then it doesnÆt get fixed on the live server and does not get added to the list of known problems.
Take the new shield skills and new shield extenders, well not so new now. I was very impressed with the way the QA team responded to problems and complaints. Yet we got the total opposite with gang assist modules and stealth bombers.
We need a better way know what bugs have been reported, what bugs have been fixed and what are on the list to be fixed. Take the gang assist modules as an example they are not in any lists of known bugs or fixÆs. Does that mean the QA team never got the bug reports? Do I need to resend bug reports, or just wait and if I have to wait how long?
It would also be good if when new features/content is added like gang assist modules we could get a message to please test these. Half the time people on the test server dont know whats new in a patch and dont know what to test.
I agree, it would definitely assist testing (and i'd be in there more myself) if it was known what bugs have been reported. It's still a good thing that people are in there testing because frankly the more people who do the more things are caught. QA is a tough thing, and nobody's perfect at it.
Personally, I respect a rant posted by someone who tested something and reported a bug that never got fixed more than someone who just blindly rants without even having put forth the effort.
From what we've seen, the QA team can hold back patches they don't feel are ready. Can they do the same for individual features that they think require more formal testing?
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.08.15 19:02:00 -
[82]
Pottsey,
I just want to let you know how much respect I have for people who are willing to assist in bug testing and reporting so that the whiners (who won't take a few days to test a bug and report it) can eventually have their fixes regardless.
To know that you have valid complaints under tested conditions is indeed comforting to see other people take part in. Thank you.
------------
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.08.15 19:35:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Pottsey on 15/08/2005 19:40:15
Thanks Guardian Alpha, speaking of bugs I didnÆt report this as I wasnÆt sure how to report it or if it was just me. But does anyone else think the text on the gang assist modules is confusing? When I read the modules it takes me awhile to work out precisely what they do. All 11 modules say 2% command bonus. Yet each module gives a different bonus.
Also Aleis pointed this one out to me and I confirm it. The Armored Warfare Specialist skill says nothing in the module text area about extra hitpoints but in the attribute area it says +2% amour hitpoints hinting that this skill gives extra hitpoints on top of the Armoured Warfare skill.
Now at first that doesnÆt seem odd but the shield Specialist skill does not give a passive bonus. One would assume either both Specialist skills give a passive bonus or neither do.
With the main text body in the Armored Warfare Specialist skill not saying anything I assume its a bug. 15 days before I can train the skill and see if you do get 2% hitpoints.
Can anyone else confirm does the skill give hitpoints?
I guess another bug report to be sent. Though I am not sure which bit is the bug.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Par'Gellen
|
Posted - 2005.08.16 12:17:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 16/08/2005 12:21:54
Originally by: Winterblink
Were you in there testing them on Singularity? There's a reason we have a test server. If you think you can do it better than them, get in there and prove it. That's why it's there in the first place.
Did you even read my post before responding to it? I'm talking about bugs that shouldn't have even made it to the test server.
Oh and incidentally I've been on the test server on numerous occasions and either get ignored or told to shut up. There is no structure. There is no way to tell what bugs have already been reported. There is no way to tell what to test. If it were my system I'd be supremely embarrassed.
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