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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.08.11 18:55:00 -
[1]
This has now happened to me twice.
You're in combat, you are losing, you warp to safety. Except in my case, once the warp finished, I was 15au away and STILL getting hit and taking damage. I still had the enemy locked as well. The three pvp'rs shooting at me all were listed in my overview at 15au distance.
On their screens, it was if I'd never warped, but according to my client, I most assuredly did. I have the screenshots to prove it.
Now. I did what we're supposed to do. I submitted a petition and a bug report. GM-Zworm, however, informs me that since nothing resembling what I'm reporting shows up in their logs, they can't do anything about it.
So apparently CCP's opinion on this is, it doesn't exist. I understand that there are many exploiters out there. However, I've lost almost a dozen HAC's (mostly deimos) so why would I ***** about the loss of another?
What's my next step? Where is the corporate-consumer relationship if there is no mechanism beyond this first stage? Why should I bother continuing to play this game with expensive/time-consuming items and ships if I can loose them for no apparent reason and have CCP put their hands over their ears and scream LA LA LA LA LA LA!
I'm very frustrated about this and have no idea what to do about it. I lost an Ishtar fully loaded with named and tech 2 gear. I lost a premium clone. I lost a lot of respect for CCP.
Hell, I lost an Enyo the next day and didn't *****. I didn't ***** about the previous eight HAC's I've lost to my own stupidity. But when I'm down a ship because of the game mechanics, or lack thereof, and there's NO way to redress this, I just don't know what to do about it.
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Reptar
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:06:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Steppa
CCP put their hands over their ears and scream LA LA LA LA LA LA!
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:10:00 -
[3]
displacement bug, mis-communication between client and server, said it yet again for the 50th time in the dev blog 
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:15:00 -
[4]
From GM-Zworm
No bug was at work according to our logs. Unfortunately, we can not use player submitted evidence in our research. We are sorry, but this our final word on this issue. Your ship will not be reimbursed as I said earlier.
So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?
Eve is among my favorite recreational past-times. The way this is going down, however, is seriously shaking my desire to invest any more time.
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laraea
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:21:00 -
[5]
Tricky situation...
I'm sorry, I have to say it, I just have to...
Can I have your stuff? Pleease?
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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qrac
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:22:00 -
[6]
Edited by: qrac on 11/08/2005 19:22:33
Originally by: Steppa
From GM-Zworm
bla bla
So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?
Eve is among my favorite recreational past-times. The way this is going down, however, is seriously shaking my desire to invest any more time.
if they don't see anything strange in the logs then they can't do anything... for all we know the screenshot might be a fake.
btw u might want to edit out the gm conversation ;)
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:23:00 -
[7]
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/08/2005 19:24:17
"So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?"
If the error is caused by your game client thinking it managed to warp away, while from the point of view of the server you never actually moved, how are the server-based logs ever supposed to show what your game client --miles and miles away-- presumed and shown to you? And how would you track it, short of sending every single thing the game client presumes back to the server, for comparison? ^^;;
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:32:00 -
[8]
You are not allowed to post exact GM replies.
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:32:00 -
[9]
That's exactly my point. I know it happened that I'm not bull****ting about it. The point here is that something CAN happen in the game that they have no way of identifying, let alone redressing or correcting. Doesn't that bother you?
No, you can't have my stuff :) I'd melt it and jettison the minerals first :)
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Neslo
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/08/2005 19:24:17
"So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?"
If the error is caused by your game client thinking it managed to warp away, while from the point of view of the server you never actually moved, how are the server-based logs ever supposed to show what your game client --miles and miles away-- presumed and shown to you? And how would you track it, short of sending every single thing the game client presumes back to the server, for comparison? ^^;;
Well I'd agree except when this happens and you try and fire.... it says "Target is 15AU away from you and you must be within 786546km to fire" ... so your client lags and says you made it out... but the server doesn't see it that way... but your client forces you into being killed.... how's that fair?....
Anyways I know how this guy feels as it's happened with me and NPCs and getting stuck on roids from the server perspective (or not being able to open a can cuz I'm not close enough on the servers perspective)... I mean... if the client is gonna FUBAR up like that why play the game when you complain about it and the response is "That never happened... Our server log shows different"
Now mind you... logs can be forged... players can lie.... but that doesn't change the fact that the bug is still there in the game.... anyways... hope it gets fixed in the upcoming "bug fixes" promised by oveur.
From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:44:00 -
[11]
I was not aware of a policy regarding posting the exact nature of a GM's response.
To sum up, he said they couldn't find any evidence of a bug in their logs, so I don't get my ship back.
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Steppa
I was not aware of a policy regarding posting the exact nature of a GM's response.
To sum up, he said they couldn't find any evidence of a bug in their logs, so I don't get my ship back.
It's mentioned in the Forum Rules.
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.08.11 19:48:00 -
[13]
don`t expect it fixed soon as it took several patches during beta to get it fixed
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SGXiphias
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:06:00 -
[14]
Edited by: SGXiphias on 11/08/2005 20:06:36
Wow this is rediculous, He has SCREENSHOTS proving it, and they still wont replace his ship. Id go up the chain man, all the way up the CEO of CCP if it comes to it, im sure i could find some contact info for him if you like.
EDIT: infact, you replaced another corp mates ship who had the same problem, warped away and was still taking damage.
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qrac
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:08:00 -
[15]
meh.. now i have to write my reply all over again because eris deleted my post 
if the gm's are to take action based on evidence from the player then certain individuals will try to exploit it and therefore gm's can only go by what their logs tell them.
the logs can't show everything because if ccp logged every single thing then the game would be unplayable.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
qrac
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: SGXiphias
EDIT: infact, you replaced another corp mates ship who had the same problem, warped away and was still taking damage.
in this case the logs might have shown something but not in steppa's case.
it is pretty easy to make a fake screenshot.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:17:00 -
[17]
I wonder if this is related to the lock bug - ie you lock a target, get "Your attempt to target <whatever> has failed."
And then the other one where you lock a target, it appears locked, and then is immediately unlocked. The ships weren't immune due to warp/jumping because they were actively firing. These are big bugs because they can easily lead to people being completely unable to defend themselves in pvp.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Steppa
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:20:00 -
[18]
I don't know about that, but I do know that while hunting npc's directly prior to this incident, I was trying to open loot cans that were less than 1000 meters from me, but got the "You must be within 1500 meters..." error. Likewise for recovering my drones. Even at less than the required distance, they would not Scoop To Drone Bay and had to be manually collected.
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Ticondrius
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:24:00 -
[19]
I've lost a Deimos recently to a bug dealing with NPCs, but was not reembursed because the GMs are unable to see if I actually have my active hardeners running or not.
What do they expect us to do? Run the log server 23/7 while playing? We didn't sign up to play on the live server to TEST the game and lose irreplaceable stuff to BUGS and not get the stuff back. That's what Singularity is for.
The key problem is CCP does not log every action the client makes. The only alternative is to log everything the lcient does on OUR end, in such a way that it is not human editable with off-the-shelf programs. The State Recording feature listed in the new sections of the patch notes seems to prove that CCP recognizes this problem, and this is probably a solution for it.
"If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault." |
Shai Faetal
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:25:00 -
[20]
server <-> lag
u might wanna check ur internet connection.
try ping plotter and ping the eve server :o. awhile ago ccp had some kind of experiment with ping plotter to find out where they where losing packets going out of the servers in londen?.
afaik its not an exploit its not a bug. it's just lag. if this happend during patch day or after it :D with u and the rest of eve ccp would re-imburse but in this case whatever ur client tells u it just wrong.
if u initiated a warp command ur client followed it but due to "net faillure" on ur side the data might not have been sent and on the server u never inititaed a warp :) cool huh 
oh and if u know u are having lag problems even if it is 1vs1 or just 1 turret firing try.
CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+T - turn off all turret effects
both not just handy in fleet battles 
CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+E - turn off all special effects
this happend to me just once, way in castor days, i got jumped by 2 bs and then my screen went "grey".
after being told by the gm that they would give me my ship back, i went and serached for the problem at home and behold, stupid internet signal was too weak to send/receive data .
ever since then i have been known as the king er... queen of pvp  . some'n lie tha!
try it sometime.
http://www.pingplotter.com/
and Good Luck!
-
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Earthan
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:28:00 -
[21]
I had this once too and once my enemy got it :) i blown the scorpion in warp.
From what i see of Eve client guessing where are you if it deosnt get server reply in time, you cant avoid it.
Sucks but happens .Like you said you lost 8 hacs to your own stupidinty , once you got bad luck, happens.Im sorry for you but i dont see a tragedy here.
Bugs happens if they are rare its acceptable.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Steppa
I don't know about that, but I do know that while hunting npc's directly prior to this incident, I was trying to open loot cans that were less than 1000 meters from me, but got the "You must be within 1500 meters..." error. Likewise for recovering my drones. Even at less than the required distance, they would not Scoop To Drone Bay and had to be manually collected.
I get this often nowadays.Last time i remmber i had it often was with serious server problems long time ago.Guess its related to server issues they posted, hope they solve it soon.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
KrogothZero
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Posted - 2005.08.11 21:18:00 -
[23]
I had this one a while ago and lost my raven with a full set of arb siege and faction mods (pre missle changes) 
To make matters worse my ship didnt drop the none destroyed modules in a can, when the gm gave my the ship back with only one shield hardener on it I was not best pleased |
Dsanta2345
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Posted - 2005.08.11 21:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Eris Discordia
You are not allowed to post exact GM replies.
and.....i would im about to be removed:
"There are no bugs in the game code that cause computers to crash in
general or this wouldnŠt be extremely rare as it is."
--GM Guard
want more? go to eve-i
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qrac
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Posted - 2005.08.11 22:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dsanta2345
Originally by: Eris Discordia
You are not allowed to post exact GM replies.
and.....i would im about to be removed:
"There are no bugs in the game code that cause computers to crash in
general or this wouldnŠt be extremely rare as it is."
--GM Guard
want more? go to eve-i
do u have a eris discordia fetish? 
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.08.11 22:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Steppa
removed
So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?
Eve is among my favorite recreational past-times. The way this is going down, however, is seriously shaking my desire to invest any more time.
It is not the GM's fault for your lack of understanding Client Server Applications. EVE might be a game but it, like any mainstream MMOG, is a sophisticated front end to a database. Your internet connection is the transportation to its connection layer. Sometimes something between point a and point b goes wrong and bug x,y,z occur OR something that looks like a bug. Screenshots aren't going to help them fix a bug. I can doctor photoshop to resemble a bug, not accusing you but buyer beware! What more do you want the GM to do? Atleast he took the time to search the server logs.
jide's oBject eXplorer
The Nest
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Pihls
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Posted - 2005.08.11 23:01:00 -
[27]
well this happend to me once in a while and its a bug.
O thats right remember that Labslot bug /rent bug
you first paid 15-30m for a damm labslot + the darn rent then put in a bpo
and poff you dont have a labslot anymore
petition response was -we dont have a software too track those things.
well that time I was ****ed and reply make sure getting a tool then :|
think at that time I ended my subs too "water my flowers and so"
I feel with you Steppa
Im no newbie it's a glith in code
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Ronin Woman
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Posted - 2005.08.11 23:04:00 -
[28]
I can understand that you are upset.
Beyond that your entire post is seriously lame. I don't want your stuff! Just leave.
It's just my 0.002 Isk worth & I feel better.
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.08.11 23:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Shai Faetal
server <-> lag
u might wanna check ur internet connection.
try ping plotter and ping the eve server :o. awhile ago ccp had some kind of experiment with ping plotter to find out where they where losing packets going out of the servers in londen?.
afaik its not an exploit its not a bug. it's just lag. if this happend during patch day or after it :D with u and the rest of eve ccp would re-imburse but in this case whatever ur client tells u it just wrong.
if u initiated a warp command ur client followed it but due to "net faillure" on ur side the data might not have been sent and on the server u never inititaed a warp :) cool huh
oh and if u know u are having lag problems even if it is 1vs1 or just 1 turret firing try.
CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+T - turn off all turret effects
both not just handy in fleet battles
CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+E - turn off all special effects
this happend to me just once, way in castor days, i got jumped by 2 bs and then my screen went "grey".
after being told by the gm that they would give me my ship back, i went and serached for the problem at home and behold, stupid internet signal was too weak to send/receive data .
ever since then i have been known as the king er... queen of pvp . some'n lie tha!
try it sometime.
http://www.pingplotter.com/
and Good Luck!
it`s not isp lag, it`s client lag and server lag at some points the ship gets displaced to another positionu can run 1 account on the best computer in the world with the fastest connection u could imagine and it would still happen
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Tenashi
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Posted - 2005.08.11 23:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Steppa
removed
So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?
Eve is among my favorite recreational past-times. The way this is going down, however, is seriously shaking my desire to invest any more time.
It is not the GM's fault for your lack of understanding Client Server Applications. EVE might be a game but it, like any mainstream MMOG, is a sophisticated front end to a database. Your internet connection is the transportation to its connection layer. Sometimes something between point a and point b goes wrong and bug x,y,z occur OR something that looks like a bug. Screenshots aren't going to help them fix a bug. I can doctor photoshop to resemble a bug, not accusing you but buyer beware! What more do you want the GM to do? Atleast he took the time to search the server logs.
same as my reply abouve
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.08.11 23:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tenashi
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Steppa
removed
So to CCP, this didn't happen because their logs are insufficient to track an event caused by the mechanics of the game. What does that say about their methodology when it comes to bug tracking and such?
Eve is among my favorite recreational past-times. The way this is going down, however, is seriously shaking my desire to invest any more time.
It is not the GM's fault for your lack of understanding Client Server Applications. EVE might be a game but it, like any mainstream MMOG, is a sophisticated front end to a database. Your internet connection is the transportation to its connection layer. Sometimes something between point a and point b goes wrong and bug x,y,z occur OR something that looks like a bug. Screenshots aren't going to help them fix a bug. I can doctor photoshop to resemble a bug, not accusing you but buyer beware! What more do you want the GM to do? Atleast he took the time to search the server logs.
same as my reply abouve
sorry I didn't bother to read anything past the first post... cause the thread is lame.
jide's oBject eXplorer
The Nest
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.08.12 00:14:00 -
[32]
Heres a novel idea - warp away earlier
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.08.12 00:25:00 -
[33]
I've been having more client-server sync problems since EXODUS, especially sync errors in the same grid (having to ask on TS how far away I am from people is a pain in the ass). This is particularly true for 'croweded' grids with a lot of objects like busy gates or belts.
However, thats a problem thats very difficult to fix (as a whole, the syncing is very good) and extremely difficult to handle from a GM perspective.
What I really want is a way to force a resync without having to leave a grid, since thats usually impossible if you're having problems.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2005.08.12 00:37:00 -
[34]
Honestly I think this is the way it has to be. There's a fine line between lag and errors, the more error checking you put into your network code the more laggy the connection will be and vice versa. People have been complaining about fleet lag since beta, so CCP is tightening up its network code to make it as fast as possible.
Lag is a part of every online game, and you have to take it into account, especially in pvp. These days there's a very small tolerance for lag, especially with the tech 2 damage gankers and fleets calling a single primary target, a few seconds delay can easily cost you your ship.
It'd be nice if there was a way to fix this, I just don't see how it can be done without creating more of the same lag we've been trying to get rid of these past couple years.
____________________________________________________________________
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.08.12 00:50:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Xelios
Honestly I think this is the way it has to be. There's a fine line between lag and errors, the more error checking you put into your network code the more laggy the connection will be and vice versa. People have been complaining about fleet lag since beta, so CCP is tightening up its network code to make it as fast as possible.
Lag is a part of every online game, and you have to take it into account, especially in pvp. These days there's a very small tolerance for lag, especially with the tech 2 damage gankers and fleets calling a single primary target, a few seconds delay can easily cost you your ship.
It'd be nice if there was a way to fix this, I just don't see how it can be done without creating more of the same lag we've been trying to get rid of these past couple years.
Well, perhaps then for when the client does something big like say, entering warp, it asks for a confirmation from the server that the avatar actually entered warp?
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Nebuli
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Posted - 2005.08.12 01:02:00 -
[36]
This is getting a bit silly, especialy as you have screenshots, I lost a megathron to a blatent bug where my drones after finishing off some rats decided to attack a friend i was mining with, he had locked me for whatever reason and my drones saw this as a threat and attacked him, Concord swiftly warped to the belt and blew me up, I was told thats what drones are supposed to do
Even when I pointed out if the lock was considered a threat and my drones attacked due to this, why didnt concord kill my friend for this most dangerous lock I just recieved, I then got the same as you, nothing shows in our logs, unlucky.
Realy feel for you, I dont mind losing a ship at all, its part of the game, but when its a blatent bug you expect customer service to be a little better than a simple "unlcuky".
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Zenst
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Posted - 2005.08.12 02:12:00 -
[37]
so basicly they accept the server logs from there server code but not the client logs from `there` client code. Kinda fuggled realy...
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.08.12 02:16:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zenst
so basicly they accept the server logs from there server code but not the client logs from `there` client code. Kinda fuggled realy...
How long do you think it would take before someone photoshops a screenshot to look like a sync error after getting ganked with something expensive on?
Anything that isnt in the hands of CCP 100% of the time is extremely dangerous to use in cases where compensation is in order.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.08.12 03:02:00 -
[39]
I lost a ship this way too, a long time ago though, I thought that this had been fixed but maybe this bug has raised it's ugly head again.
It happened with NPCs thank god, here's me clicking "WARP WARP" and I kept on getting knocked off of warp by a missile barrage. Finally I started warping in a ship that looked like a cheap candle because of the amount of smoke it was causing. BUT as I came out of warp I was in a pod.
In your case it's far worse because you didn't even have a chance of warping out your pod because your client didn't know, bad luck.
The only thing I think that CCP could really do here, and it's not going to help your case here I'm afraid, would be to have the client log a message on the server about a synchronization problem when the client finally catches up with the server so that the GMs have at least that piece of information at their disposal.
23:59:22 Client out of sync errer
Message: WTF do you mean I'm not displaying what is really happening ?
Client state: In ship X
Server state: Activated clone
If the GMs had something like that then they would know when it really happened, and pulling the network plug to bail out isn't going to generate that kind of message if you realize you have bitten off more than you can chew in a fight.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
AlienBreed
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Posted - 2005.08.12 03:30:00 -
[40]
i had this issue aswell
and the bull about oh we have no logs so unlucky
i have lost 2 ships and one pod in recent days in amomalous curcumstances
in one in stance i warped away,my gang seen me warp away,but then i handnt waped and i was dead
now if thats lag then explain how others seen me go?
i was on one occasion ejected from teh game during combat and killed and when i petition i get spoken to like some sort of idiot "oh we have no logs"
why would they have logs when the client drops because its poorly coded?
when i made this point i was given an answer to a petition i didnt give...
all this leads me to beleive that GMs dont actually bother to read the details half the time cause they cant be arsed and CCP really dont care if you have a poor gaming experience just so long as you keep paying
the customer care given is truely pathetic and the "we are very sorry hope you have a nice game" type message comes over as almost mocking
this forum is full of posts complaining about almost identicle issues....ahh but they have no logs
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Dsanta2345
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Posted - 2005.08.12 06:38:00 -
[41]
rofl my gm quote still lives on in this thread....lol
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Oodlebang Slipslop
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Posted - 2005.08.12 06:54:00 -
[42]
Had same type of thing happen to me.
Gm's response is pretty lame imo.
WTS This char for isk!
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Xilox
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Posted - 2005.08.12 07:15:00 -
[43]
Isn't there any way for ccp to monitor what the client does, if not there should be....
One more thing i know the man, and he is a honorable player, plz help him if possible CCP.
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Zenst
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Posted - 2005.08.12 07:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Blind Fear
Originally by: Zenst
so basicly they accept the server logs from there server code but not the client logs from `there` client code. Kinda fuggled realy...
How long do you think it would take before someone photoshops a screenshot to look like a sync error after getting ganked with something expensive on?
Anything that isnt in the hands of CCP 100% of the time is extremely dangerous to use in cases where compensation is in order.
Well one was refering to logs, NOT screenshots as you imply, non the less you mute a valid point, albiet tainted - you assume CCP assumes there customers lie. To not accept screenshots as you put it is assuming the customer is lieing, but to not accept the logs from the client they control given they wrote it is well. Are all customers liar's!!!
Take the same argument, there server logs are faked and CCP lies, works BOTH ways realy.
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Rick Dentill
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Posted - 2005.08.12 07:35:00 -
[45]
This has happened to me before too. I assumed it was a one off. It was in a drone bunker mission. One of the turrets was shooting me all the way through warp. Thank goodness I had a good repairer, plenty of cap and had warped to a station.
_______
Save me Jebus!
http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/dd.php |
Ishana
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Posted - 2005.08.12 07:44:00 -
[46]
Next time this happens do the following:
Quickly set a destination in your assets that takes you through another gate. Hit autopilot. Then pray.
Since your client is out of sink with the server you won't be able to do much, but the autopilot will save your butt if you have time to activate it. Also you will most likely be back in sink once the server warps you somewere.
_________________________________________________________
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.08.12 08:04:00 -
[47]
I think I've encountered this one the other way around. Under heavy fire at a gate, and 'going down', shutting off weapons so I could jump, and clicking on that 'jump' button.
My client showed a big explosion and a pod, but then loaded me in the next system intact.
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Regma
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Posted - 2005.08.12 08:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Heres a novel idea - warp away earlier
Or win 
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