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Robyn Caliente
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Posted - 2006.02.05 19:30:00 -
[31]
It's sad that OpenGL hasn't kept track. It was superior to DX for many years and then it kind of fell apart when SGI did. Carmack had to customize opengl to continue using it but someone really needs to take head of the project. That or Apple needs to come up with their own easy to use DX implementation.
I have four macs in the house, 2 linux servers, and a single PC that is used for CoV/H & Eve. It is so sad that I have to have one machine thats duty is an expensive console.
I was an apple hater back in the day but the OS is solid and polished. To the linux guy who bashed it, it's a bsd core common.. As a professional in IS we run everything from Solaris, RH, Unbuntu, and some slices of FC. There should be no bashing of Mac as a bastard. Everything is a bastard these days of posix (except windoze) :P
I understand that this is all time consuming and it takes resources. When your grossing over a mil a year on a product you'd figure it'd have some client/engine growth. Eve looks and handles the same as when I beta'd for it. Great content growth, lacking on the client/engine. One curiousity of mine has been if they are secretly working on a cross platformable new client but hell if I know. Finding real info is like pulling teeth.
Hell don't do it internally, set a bounty and let the community try and figure it out! ;-) Give them an isolated test server and a dev kit and lets see where it goes!
This is not meant to be inflamatory. I've worked in technology for 15 years and know product, development, engineering, and management cycles. It's a ***** to be in software development but I've found most of your hicups are management and vision related, not code related. Programmers grind when there is a spec, they flounder when the spec is consistantly changing. So keep up the good work, and know that there is yet one more voice out there for multiplatforming.
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.02.06 16:01:00 -
[32]
I think the reason that CCP haven't announced anything about a port is that it would cause widespread outrage amongst PC users (vast majority of EVE players) who do not and would never use a Mac, and have no interest in handing over their subscription money to subsidise CCP developers coding a new client, particularly when there are several major issues still to be fixed as the game currently stands.
Linux users, on the other hand, I have some sympathy for. Every six months or so, I install several linux distros to see how they have progressed as gaming platforms, and I would switch to Linux in a heartbeat if I felt it was a viable alternative to Windows. Last I checked (Oct/Nov 05) it wasn't. Cedega is a great accomplishment but it is still horrendously buggy, even for many games which Transgaming touts on it's site. Linux support for high end graphics cards in general is still flaky at best.
Sure, porting a game to various platforms doesn't have to hard - IF you plan it that way from the ground up. Taking a Direct3d client and rewriting it for OpenGL would be a particularly onerous task which I wouldn't wish on anyone, and I certainly would not be prepared to subsidise it.
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- Suhadi |
Robyn Caliente
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Posted - 2006.02.06 18:42:00 -
[33]
hehehe Outrage! heheh That *****s me up. Forum trolls will flame anything. There is an old assumption that whiners read forums while happy people play the games. Not sure what that makes me gaming and foruming lol!
Lets do some simple wild-ass-statistics(WAG); there are >35million OS X customers out there. Even if you garnered .25% thats 825k mac gamers out there, grab another .25% and thats >20k possible subscriptions, which equates into a boost to profits of 4.5mil a year. How can that not be worth it?
Gaming numbers, In-Stat predicts the ranks could swell in the next few years. The number could balloon to more than 30 million online gamers by 2009 from 3.4 million players in 2004
We are subscribers of a service. If CCP wanted to make a giant balloon and float around the world we don't get a vote so you shouldn't feel entitled that your outrage would be cared about. If enough attrition occur'd that would get their attention but lets face it, large scale attrition due to making ports is highly unlikely.
CCP should have the resources to bug fix and port, but I don't know their books; they could bleed in a lot of ways most modern orgs do. Like all things this in the end is a capitalist money game.
Still would love to see official rhyme and reason for all this, as my logic unit just can't fully grok it.
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Suhadi
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Posted - 2006.02.06 19:02:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: Robyn Caliente
Lets do some simple wild-ass-statistics(WAG); there are >35million OS X customers out there. Even if you garnered .25% thats 825k mac gamers out there, grab another .25% and thats >20k possible subscriptions, which equates into a boost to profits of 4.5mil a year. How can that not be worth it?
Compare your "wild-ass-statistics" to the number of PC MMORPG players. Then consider that EVE only just broke 100k subscribers. And you expect to pull in anywhere near another 20k from a Mac port alone?
Quote:
We are subscribers of a service. If CCP wanted to make a giant balloon and float around the world we don't get a vote so you shouldn't feel entitled that your outrage would be cared about. If enough attrition occur'd that would get their attention but lets face it, large scale attrition due to making ports is highly unlikely.
Who cares about large scale attrition? My buck is my vote, everyone else is free to make up their own minds.
I forgive you for labelling me a troll though; it's a common mechanism for fanboys to deflect criticism.
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- Suhadi |
Sam Arran
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Posted - 2006.02.07 12:45:00 -
[35]
Whilst I think that Robyn Caliente's estimates are wildly optimistic, it could be argued that lack of competition in the Mac MMOG market would mean that a much higher percentage of the Mac user base would buy Eve than the current percentage of PC owners. Games that are ported to the Mac tend to sell very well indeed simply because the market isn't saturated.
I'm not going to hold my breath and wait for this to happen; I'm quite happy to keep the PC solely to play one of the best games ever created. It's just a shame that so much room is taken up by something that is, in effect, a glorified games console. |
Robyn Caliente
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Posted - 2006.02.07 21:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Suhadi
I forgive you for labelling me a troll though; it's a common mechanism for fanboys to deflect criticism.
ehehe no I really wasn't calling you a troll. It is an observation that forums are largly troll or squeeky wheel oriented. The mass/majority of players rarely use many mmo's forums. Bring your critical thinking.  It's refreshing from those who would just devolve.
They were wild ass statistics, it was stated as such. I gave a weak conversion rate too, a quarter percent of a quarter percent. Drop another quarter percent to 500 mac-eve-gamers which nets 120k a year. With 1.2million (and growing at a 20% rate) apples shipping quarterly is it not safe to think this number would rise?
WoW is the only MMO you can play on a Mac unless you want to play Dufus. I'm inclined to think that the ground is fertile since its barren of competition, unlike the PC MMO market. (I wish I could dig numbers on Mac WoW clients, Bliz keeps their numbers so close)
Strong growth, strong sales, strong future. Much brighter than its ever been and if people can pull of WoW clients in OSX then Eve should be able to. Maybe they need to hit the universal binary idea sometime.
As to "Who cares about large scale attrition", business does. Large scale attrition is the easiest way to force a hand in any industry. It was the cause of SWG's redirection. I'm curious if WoW's current bleeding will have any sway. At 5.5m subscribers though it'd take a lot to get their ear. Singular votes don't make many waves but if you garnered a mob mentality that would flee with you due to 'Working on another platform', maybe it'd make a difference. You'd seriously leave because CCP wanted to bring in another user base? I doubt they'd ever just neglect the roster of bugs and evolution to do so, thats too narrow of a view.
Like the last poster I don't hold my breath, but I can think about it and yearn for it. Market willing they'll be enough of us one day to sway them.
Hope this isn't inflamatory, I tried! 
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Ignus VonHeidelbergner
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Posted - 2006.02.08 03:15:00 -
[37]
Hi, just wanted to post my opinion that I'd be very happy with a mac port, currently waiting on my new macbook pro. Of course, the alternative, is when someone finally figures out how to rig efi to boot winxp, i can just dual boot my mac laptop to winxp, but I'm not holding my breath on either a port or the correct functionality of EvE through winex.
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Awox
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Posted - 2006.02.08 05:51:00 -
[38]
I too would like a Mac OS X port. I have a powerbook I would love to play EVE on. As for Linux, well.. Linux is great for people who like Linux but I prefer Mac OS X for the desktop and BSDs for server platforms.
I signed the petition, 1830th signatury! :D
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Sendasi Iici
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Posted - 2006.02.13 14:14:00 -
[39]
Not going to hold my breath waiting for a client nor for EVE to work in Wine/Wine X...
What I will hold out for is a working virtualisation environment. The Intel Core range of processors support virtualisation, though I'm not certain if it is enabled or whether it can be enabled via EFI.
Running two OSs concurrently on one of the Intel Core Duo machines would be sweet. Especially since Apple has let the iMac run multiple monitors.
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Siriyana
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Posted - 2006.02.14 05:03:00 -
[40]
I would LOVE it if there was an OS X version of the client- and trust me, they would pick up quite a few subscribers from that- definitely more than the amount of annual salary they would pay the programmer (or programmers) to maintain the port.
In any case, I added my name to the petition. I currently can only play with infrequency at my friend's house, because I don't have a PC at home. I really don't want to spend the money to build one when I can use kit I already have. :(
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Tender Me
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Posted - 2006.02.14 15:23:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Robyn Caliente
It's sad that OpenGL hasn't kept track.
It has, there has been recently a new revision out. It was originally designed rather well so it still rocks. And there are the SDL and openal libraries and friends for getting the whole toolset (as DirectX is about a lot more than just graphics too) for porting. It isn't that much of work either. (Note: I am however a bit against it, I'll explain later.)
Anyone who talks about that other operating systems can't do the same "because they don't have DirectX" is just plain clueless. Try the AAO Linux client for instance. Most often (their porting procedures suck) the Linux client is faster and the graphics look better than the Windows counterparts of the same version  And it's quite damned stable too, at least has been for me.
I'm one player that has got Windows installed at all purely because of one reason: Eve Online. 10G Windows partition devoted to that. The very second I find some way to run Eve well enough on my Frisbee the Windows gets deleted for good. If the Wine/Cedega started running Eve client well enough that would do. Not just only for users of one OS, but for many. That would include instantly MacOS, Linux, FreeBSD (and other BSD derivatives), qnx and so on - pretty much all POSIXish operating systems.
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Cytech
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Posted - 2006.02.14 22:07:00 -
[42]
I'm also for an OSX port, i recently lost my main pc now all i have is a G4 powerbook and a G5 desktop (eve on 20" widescreen would be nice *drool*)
there are nearly 2k people who have signed the petition and however many 100 who want to play and dont know the petition exists...i think its about time ccp looked at doing a mac version...
4 people who i work with would probably play eve aswell if there was a mac version :(
CCP dont seem to want to extend the 100k active subs :(
we all live in hope.
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Ga'Rahn
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Posted - 2006.02.23 12:19:00 -
[43]
A Mac port would be my dream come true. I am currently playing a trial account on of my roommates PC and would gladly buy this game if it were to be released for the mac.
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Sirkan
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Posted - 2006.03.14 14:26:00 -
[44]
Would a DEV please respond to this thread in any way? For respect of the whole mac community that loves EVE? Please?
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Mortor Calieph
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Posted - 2006.03.16 06:58:00 -
[45]
I think a Mac port would be a great sell if advertisements were worded correctly. I work at home for the most part and actually have tracked a boost in my productivity while working and playing Eve. The game pace is ideal to do work spurts with mental breaks by using Eve. Personally, it is somewhat difficult to describe but, Eve alone is boring to me at long stretches and this game has pleanty of downtime due to jumping, mining etc. Used as a work break my attention is not dulled for either work or Eve. The day flys by so no clock watching anymore. /shrug
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Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:37:00 -
[46]
Well you all may have seen the thread I posteed up in general...........but if not, Transgaming just came out with cedega 5.1.1. AND..........specifically listed EVE fixes in their press release.........And, the last 2 days I've been playing EVE in Linux, and it hasn't crashed once, with very comparable performance to my winblows install of it.
As mac is bsd underneath, there is still hope.
At this moment, I'm driving thru minamatar space and gates, docking at minnie stations, and have been running in a window, AND switching to FS and not one crash. Freakin' happy doesn't begin to cover it. No more (until next eve patch) dual boot for me.
Like I said, not specifically for mac, but this is closer to a working solution than before.
"No power in the 'verse can stop us now!" |
Kinivoris Neptune
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:20:00 -
[47]
I see the myth that theres a small amount of mac gamers, the reason that is, is because the small amount of mac gamers. All us mac users are considered "PC Gamers" because we have to use a PC to play games. If they ported EVE to mac, myself and atleast 4 other people I personally know, would no longer need a PC.
Saying there is no Mac users who would like to play games on their Mac, is a lie. Just look at WoW.
If Mac has no gamers, then a windows computer can stay stable for 45 days + with 70 applications running :-P
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damicatz
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Posted - 2006.03.17 20:44:00 -
[48]
OpenGL is still far superior to Direct3D. Every graphics-related industry besides gaming still uses it. Maya, AutoCAD etc. Carmack did not have to customize OpenGL at all. Unlike, Direct3D, OpenGL is not locked down to a specific feature set. Vendors can create what is known as a vendor-specific extension. These extensions provide full access to all of a video card's features. Carmack simply took advantage of these VSEs. OpenGL 2.0 by itself has a feature set that will rival D3D 10. It's a shame that Microsoft is trying to kill it with their OpenGL to Direct3D wrapper in Vista. Such a feature will surely be a nail in the coffin for Microsoft as Maya and Autodesk aren't going to drop everything and rewrite their programs in D3D.
Originally by: Robyn Caliente
It's sad that OpenGL hasn't kept track. It was superior to DX for many years and then it kind of fell apart when SGI did. Carmack had to customize opengl to continue using it but someone really needs to take head of the project. That or Apple needs to come up with their own easy to use DX implementation.
I have four macs in the house, 2 linux servers, and a single PC that is used for CoV/H & Eve. It is so sad that I have to have one machine thats duty is an expensive console.
I was an apple hater back in the day but the OS is solid and polished. To the linux guy who bashed it, it's a bsd core common.. As a professional in IS we run everything from Solaris, RH, Unbuntu, and some slices of FC. There should be no bashing of Mac as a bastard. Everything is a bastard these days of posix (except windoze) :P
I understand that this is all time consuming and it takes resources. When your grossing over a mil a year on a product you'd figure it'd have some client/engine growth. Eve looks and handles the same as when I beta'd for it. Great content growth, lacking on the client/engine. One curiousity of mine has been if they are secretly working on a cross platformable new client but hell if I know. Finding real info is like pulling teeth.
Hell don't do it internally, set a bounty and let the community try and figure it out! ;-) Give them an isolated test server and a dev kit and lets see where it goes!
This is not meant to be inflamatory. I've worked in technology for 15 years and know product, development, engineering, and management cycles. It's a ***** to be in software development but I've found most of your hicups are management and vision related, not code related. Programmers grind when there is a spec, they flounder when the spec is consistantly changing. So keep up the good work, and know that there is yet one more voice out there for multiplatforming.
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Going commando
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:02:00 -
[49]
oh GOD, my head is hurting to much nerd's talking
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Dante Chusuk
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:49:00 -
[50]
Why worry? Seems dual boot Macs are coming
BBC Article
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Senyek Notlim
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:29:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dante Chusuk
Why worry? Seems dual boot Macs are coming
BBC Article
You should have quoted the best bit about the article: "Some want to run PC games like Eve Online on Macs". See CCP, even the BBC think you should do us a port 
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Vajra Spear
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:56:00 -
[52]
As a previous poster said, wish not for an OS port but pray for CCP to change from Directx to openGL
I snip this from a post in the
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=299593&page=4
Forum as it is the most lucid statement on the opengl / Directx argument...
<snip>
1.Most of the real world uses OpenGL, not Direct3D. The only industry Direct3D has much of any use is the gaming industry.
2.OpenGL is portable, Direct3D is not. On purpose. One of the orginial architects of DirectX, Alex St. John, has stated in public that the point of DirectX was to tether multimedia applications to the Windows platform and defeat Apple at multimedia.
3.CCP would be driving a nail into their coffin by using DirectX 10 as it would not be back-portable and would alienate a significant portion of the player base.
4.Microsoft has a tendency to redo their APIs a little too much. OpenGL has been consistant since it's inception. Direct3D has gone through 2 different rewrites. The first was Direct3D 8 and now with Direct3D 10.
5.By bypassing the WinNT HAL and allowing programs to have direct access to the hardware, you compromise the stability of the system. This is the reason why most programs in WinNT based operating systems that cause blue screens are DirectX based.
6.OpenGL does not allow direct access to the hardware.
7.There are many Direct3D games that run faster on Cedega than in Windows. Cedega translates the Direct3D calls through OpenGL. This demonstrates the negligible benefit of the above mentioned direct hardware access.
8.Up until Direct3D 8, Direct3D required 4-5 lines of code to change a state. The OpenGL equivilant has always been 1 line, GL_ENABLE(X).
9.Direct3D suffers from poor documentation and a lack of consistancy in the notation. Hungarian notation is evil and should be avoided at all costs.
10.Direct3D is dictated by one company which decides all the features that go into each spec. OpenGL is ruled by the architecture review board (ARB). In addition, OpenGL provides a way for manufacturors of GPUs to provide their own features via extensions so they aren't stifled from innovation.
11.OpenGL 2.0 has a feature set equivilant to DirectX 10. It is also out as a stable release. DirectX 10 is not.
12.Unlike DirectX 10, OpenGL 2.0 does not require the programmer to learn a whole new API as the ARB sees no reason to rewrite the entire API with every other major release like Microsoft.
13.OpenGL does not require the author of a driver to pay $300 to get a "certification" in order to be installed/used. Windows Vista and as a result, DirectX 10, will require a signed driver and unlike Windows XP, this "feature" will not be bypassable. That's $300 for every driver release, not just the first time.
14.Windows Vista will require you to get a new monitor in order to view "protected content". Linux will not.
15.Windows Vista will be riddled with DRM (Digital Rights Management). All that crap is optional with Linux.
16.Windows Vista is replacing the GDI with WGF. Both are used to render controls and 2D images on the screen. This will create a delimma for programmers. Either use GDI, and have it run under slow emulation in Vista, use WGF and have it not be backwards compatible (possibly XP if Microsoft is feeling benevolent), or write one for each.
17.A great deal of OSS is cross-platform. Obviously, if people using their free time to write programs can make cross-platform programs, a company can.
18.Making a program cross-platform is not difficult unless you are bad at programming or tether yourself to proprietery APIs.
<snip>
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Drilla
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Posted - 2006.03.21 15:35:00 -
[53]
An alternative which could prove to be alot less expensive for CCP would be to hire a Cedega programmer to hammer out any issues EVE and Cedega has and boost FPS.
That would be a first and garner alot of publicity.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
Dante Chusuk
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:40:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Senyek Notlim
Originally by: Dante Chusuk
Why worry? Seems dual boot Macs are coming
BBC Article
You should have quoted the best bit about the article: "Some want to run PC games like Eve Online on Macs". See CCP, even the BBC think you should do us a port
Sweet the captions weren't there the other day when I first saw the article, I just thought "oh I recognise those freighters" 
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Sam Arran
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Posted - 2006.04.05 17:23:00 -
[55]
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html
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Taulmarill
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Posted - 2006.04.06 09:25:00 -
[56]
this is great news. according to mactechnews.de, a MacBookPro with 2GHz has about the performance of an Athlon XP 2800+ with a Radeon X800 Pro. finaly i can get rid of my PC :-)
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Senyek Notlim
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Posted - 2006.04.06 12:42:00 -
[57]
Works fine on my MacBook Pro so far, but I haven't done anything that strenuous yet. You will need a two button mouse for it though if you want to do anything useful.
The whole process is pretty straight forwards and anybody capable of installing XP should be able to do it.
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Nova Incantus
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Posted - 2006.04.09 14:33:00 -
[58]
You know you're running EVE on a mac when in order to undock your ship you have to drag it to the Reprocessing plant LOL
----------------------
If you build it, they will come and attack it.
Nova Incantus - [SAK] |
Chase
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Posted - 2007.03.06 03:21:00 -
[59]
Has anyone tried to run eve with Parallels? If so any feedback would be great.
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Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.06 03:53:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Sevarus James on 06/03/2007 03:50:47
Edited by: Sevarus James on 06/03/2007 03:49:50
Originally by: Chase
Has anyone tried to run eve with Parallels? If so any feedback would be great.
From my reading, the virtual machine implementations do NOT work well/at all with directx. Parallels has been tried, and specifically vmware do NOT run the game, or for that matter just about any other directx games.
For the title of this thread, bootcamp, crossover, wine for macs and soon "tm" Cider are the options in play at this point for EVE on macs.
CCP has agreements in place with transgaming (to what extent I still don't have any in depth info other than "we're working with em'" statements), but the hope is that EVE will adopt the cider wrapper that transgaming is working on to allow transparent compatibility on the mac.
Ubuntu 3d-Linux Desktop+EVE |
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