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Iminent Penance
Interstellar Military Assistance Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Sura Sadiva wrote: Duelling system is the worse idea they had in the last 3-4 years. And now - as many predicted - demands to turn it in a safe arena/battleground system increase. The way to the total depravation is open.
Problem with duels is they are artificials and do not give anything neither close to any real EVE pvp situation. So are not relevant in teaching or getting players into PvP.
Actually getting blown up is just the better "entry way in"; you don't "lose" isk, you just spend them to learn. And if there's something easy to make in EVE are just ISK.
The dueling system is just CCP fixing something they broke when they introduced the new Crimewatch. In the nine years before Crimewatch 2.0, players had been using jetcans to set up duels and had even been setting up FFA arena fights. The Way to the Total Depravation, as you put it, has always been open. Take that tinfoil off your head, it's unsightly and makes you look like someone's basted chicken dinner.
Came for tears, now im hungry.
Thanks |

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
341
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: The dueling system is just CCP fixing something they broke when they introduced the new Crimewatch.
In the nine years before Crimewatch 2.0, players had been using jetcans to set up duels and had even been setting up FFA arena fights.
The Way to the Total Depravation, as you put it, has always been open. Take that tinfoil off your head, it's unsightly and makes you look like someone's basted chicken dinner.
No, not really so.
I'll try to explain this to you only once, since you tend to troll and insult so is probably a waste of time anyway:
Crimwatch 2.0. didnt change the canflip mechanics at all. These mechanics are still there untouched and can be used exactrly in the same way. Crimewatch 2.0 only made (as side effct) canflipping more risky since you are flagged for everyone instead for a copropration only.
Duelling system is not a replacement/fix of this but add something new to this game: Concord granted "honorable" consensual "pvp" for high-seccer. One can like or dislike this (I dislike) but here thepoint is that is something new and not just a "fix" for the canflipping duels.
Canflipping generated figth: Fight chance generated by an illegal action in a typical action->consequences logic and involving someone flagged as criminal.
Duelling: Consensual PvP generated by nothing, without any triggering event, no consequences, no flags, safe, just for fun, legally granted by Concord and pretending "honorable 1vs1 PvP".
And, for your infomation:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote: In the nine years before Crimewatch 2.0, players had been using jetcans to set up duels and had even been setting up FFA arena fights.
Is not true. The flag for stealing from cans was introduced only few years ago, i think was Trinity. before oone coild steal from cans and steal back with no PvP triggers or penalities.
And people wanted to freely fight, arranging duels, tournaments, whatever without concord problems always moved to low or null. As they still do and will always do.
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
43
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote: The dueling system is just CCP fixing something they broke when they introduced the new Crimewatch.
In the nine years before Crimewatch 2.0, players had been using jetcans to set up duels and had even been setting up FFA arena fights.
The Way to the Total Depravation, as you put it, has always been open. Take that tinfoil off your head, it's unsightly and makes you look like someone's basted chicken dinner.
No, not really so. I'll try to explain this to you only once, since you tend to troll and insult so is probably a waste of time anyway: Crimwatch 2.0. didnt change the canflip mechanics at all. These mechanics are still there untouched and can be used exactrly in the same way. Crimewatch 2.0 only made (as side effct) canflipping more risky since you are flagged for everyone instead for a copropration only. Duelling system is not a replacement/fix of this but add something new to this game: Concord granted "honorable" consensual "pvp" for high-seccer. One can like or dislike this (I dislike) but here thepoint is that is something new and not just a "fix" for the canflipping duels. Canflipping generated figth: Fight chance generated by an illegal action in a typical action->consequences logic and involving someone flagged as criminal. Duelling: Consensual PvP generated by nothing, without any triggering event, no consequences, no flags, safe, just for fun, legally granted by Concord and pretending "honorable 1vs1 PvP". And, for your infomation: Alvatore DiMarco wrote: In the nine years before Crimewatch 2.0, players had been using jetcans to set up duels and had even been setting up FFA arena fights.
Is not true. The flag for stealing from cans was introduced only few years ago, i think was Trinity. before oone coild steal from cans and steal back with no PvP triggers or penalities. And people wanted to freely fight, arranging duels, tournaments, whatever without concord problems always moved to low or null. As they still do and will always do.
|

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
43
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:14:00 -
[34] - Quote
...bastard forums ate my reply and treated me to a double-post. |

Iminent Penance
Interstellar Military Assistance Corporation
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
This can be solved by placing tech moons in hisec |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
218
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
If your looking for a fair fight your playing the wrong game. |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 18:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rroff wrote:If your looking for a fair fight your playing the wrong game.
Where do i say I am looking for a fair fight?
However, now that i think about it and with some of the comments and can see that a truly fair fight might be fun. But I am realizing that most of the posters on this thread would not want a fair fight.
It takes a lot more courage than most players have to risk high amounts of isk on personal abilities. To go into a fight knowing that the most skilled fighter will be the winner would kill the whole idea of fair fights.
This game is to full of players that do not, will not take responsibility for their actions. So you are right that most of the present players are not really interested in a "fair Fight". Even though they are always whining about the lack of it when they are the victims.
Yes, a duel safe from outside interference would not be the game play for a lot of players because that is not what they want. It would create a new faction of players that would expand EVEs appeal.(one more thing to do)
Many comment that it would kill PVP because "why would some one go on a roam looking for a fight when they can just sign up for one. I don't think very many of those posting on this thread would do that. Those that like to PVP in EVE at this time, do it because of the way it is now. They are not interested in fair fights and would not support or participate in them. So that part of EVE would not change.
I do not see what it would take away from those that like it the way it is. The option for a fair duel is not for you. You could even keep the present dueling system the way it is and call the new idea for a fair fight "Arena"
Personally, I would like to see just how good I really am. I am pretty good at killing cripples and the under privileged but just how good would I be if my opponent was not ambushed and outgunned.
But I do not seem to be getting any support on this idea, and I guess if CCP thought it would or will be profitable then they will bring it
Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
617
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 18:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote: Where do i say I am looking for a fair fight?
Bud Austrene wrote:
I do not duel because i am afraid that he has an unfair advantage. Otherwise, why would he be asking me to duel.
Bud Austrene wrote:
I think that a lot of people would enjoy guaranteed fair fights.
Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Who forces anyone to duel? What the hell is an unfair advantage?
An unfair advantage is where one has outside help (remote repair). An unfair advantage would be exploiting ones ignorance of the game. An unfair advantage is where a person is out numbered. The skills that i have to put T2 modules and T2 guns in a rifter would give me an unfair advantage over someone with low fitting skills.
Just the 1 1/2 years of experience i have gives me an unfair advantage over a new player fresh out of the tutorials. The training that Chuck Norris has done gives him quite an unfair advantage over me.
Do you need more examples of what an unfair advantage is? Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Bud Austrene wrote: Where do i say I am looking for a fair fight?
Bud Austrene wrote:
I do not duel because i am afraid that he has an unfair advantage. Otherwise, why would he be asking me to duel.
Bud Austrene wrote:
I think that a lot of people would enjoy guaranteed fair fights.
It seems you are determined to misunderstand me.
What is the point in nitpicking over my perceived hypocrisy. And just what is the point of this post by you?
I am not here to discuss me but an idea that I feel is worth discussing.
You are not worth the effort to try to help you understand because you do not want to understand or discuss merits of the the idea of a fair fight.
Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
620
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 19:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
There is nothing in eve meant to be fair. It is an unfair game, it has been from the start and hopefully will continue to be that way forever. Fairness come from games like hello kitty online and my little ponies online where you probably get an achievement for typing in your name correctly. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
342
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote: Personally, I would like to see just how good I really am. I am pretty good at killing cripples and the under privileged but just how good would I be if my opponent was not ambushed and outgunned.
Then buy 30 incursus, move in low and search for 1 vs 1 frigates engagments (you'll be surprised to find out how many there will be happy to honor an 1 vs 1). When you will have lost all of your 30 frigates you'll starts to figure how things work:
Review every single fight.
Tune the fitting.
Raise and repeat.
Sometime you will be killed cause outshipped, sometime cause was a trap, sometime cause you were unlucky, sometime simply cause your opponent is better and more experienced.
But - guess what - at some point you will win a fight where you were outgunned, where you started in disadvantage, against a stronger opponent (for ship, skills or whatever); will be pleaseable and this feeling will compensate you of everything.
And after tasting the first blood you will start to think how stupid was the HS duelling system idea.
But I know now you will reply that this is impossible cause as we all know is impossible to move in low without automaatically explode to some gatecamp.
|

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14392
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote:Mag's wrote:Who forces anyone to duel? What the hell is an unfair advantage? An unfair advantage is where one has outside help (remote repair). An unfair advantage would be exploiting ones ignorance of the game. An unfair advantage is where a person is out numbered. The skills that i have to put T2 modules and T2 guns in a rifter would give me an unfair advantage over someone with low fitting skills. Just the 1 1/2 years of experience i have gives me an unfair advantage over a new player fresh out of the tutorials. The training that Chuck Norris has done gives him quite an unfair advantage over me. Do you need more examples of what an unfair advantage is? Nothing of what you've posted, is unfair in Eve. The only time fair could even be considered part of Eve, is at the point of balancing modules and ships and the fact that ALL players have the same options open to them. That's the point even the notion of fair, ends in Eve.
But that post and it's mention of Chuck Norris, highlighted the problem here. You have a issue differentiating RL ethics and Eve. This also shows in the fact you mention bullies and griefers, in your sig. Eve is designed to be a sandbox, where everyone gets the same tools and options available. It's actively promoted as being a place where scamming, stealing and spying are prevalent activities. Eve is not and never will be fair, that's the whole point of it's sandbox nature. Just because it allows you to succeed in whatever you want, doesn't mean that others cannot do the same, or try and stop you.
You have options open to you already and I suggest you use them. But I have a feeling no matter what ridiculous changes are made to suit your needs, there will always be a reason for you to claim 'cheat' or 'unfair'. What's next? Oh but he has a better computer and internet connection?  Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
1181
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mag's wrote:What the hell is an unfair advantage?
When the other guy is better prepped than you (i.e. _YOU_ didn't do your homework).
What is it ... Rule 3 or 4 of EvE -- if it's a fair fight, someone did something wrong... |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:39:00 -
[45] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:There is nothing in eve meant to be fair. It is an unfair game, it has been from the start and hopefully will continue to be that way forever. Fairness come from games like hello kitty online and my little ponies online where you probably get an achievement for typing in your name correctly.
And I am saying that maybe now is the time to change that. I believe that the constant changes that CCP is making in the game is an effort to stay competitive in the market place. CCP's buffing of high sec I believe is an effort to retain members and attract new players.
CCP Seagull in a blog somewhere said that most of the EVE players are playing solo in high sec. CCP's buffing of high sec was not in the best interest of PVPers. But i think is is obvious that it is good business to cater the those that keep you in business (carebears).
CCP has a history of buffing carebear play. And i understand that. They have bills to pay and toys to buy.
In examining the possibles that might result from having a part of EVE where dueling would be fair (arenas) and separate from the main game I see only positive results. Everyone wins.
The hard core PVPers, suicide gankers and such would not participate. But the new player, bored with fair fights that he can't win would join the existing PVPer's thus increasing the PVP player base. It might put a bit of a backbone into the carebears if they had an easier way to learn PVP.
I think it has better possibilities for everyone than CCP continuing to buff carebear stuff and nerfing Pvper's. And that is what they have done in the past and there is no reason for them to change course and quit. Unless they can have a more attractive alternative that is good business for them.
If they can replace every disgruntled PVPer who rage-quits with two care bears that like to mine, they might be sad all the way to the bank Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
620
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
Lions will always need sheep to prey upon, if you give sheep lush green fields, the sheep will grow on numbers and when there are too many sheep the lions will come in. This is not what would be considered fair by the sheep but for over all it is balanced. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 20:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Lions will always need sheep to prey upon, if you give sheep lush green fields, the sheep will grow on numbers and when there are too many sheep the lions will come in. This is not what would be considered fair by the sheep but for over all it is balanced.
So you want to make is easier on the carebears in hopes that they will provide more prey for you? But what if they pull your teeth and declaw you before you are allowed to approach the carebear herd?
Will you rage-quit and make room for more carebears?
Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Velicitia
Open Designs
1183
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:
But I know now you will reply that this is impossible cause as we all know is impossible to move in low without automaatically explode to some gatecamp.
best part is when that camp is manned by a bunch of **** pilots in T2 fits ... and your gang of lol-fit (Meta-0) ships spanks it. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
620
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec.
That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way.
I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying.
Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?
Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
252
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
I lost a frig and 200m in implants to what should have been an easy Cormorant kill, but turned out to be an OG-boosted ship with insta-lock. Learn from your mistakes and move on. Dueling is fine. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |

Screenlag
The Caerus Gate
40
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
Personally I engage anyone I think I could have a fair fight with. I fly cruisers and BCs, and I duel cruisers and BCs. Had great fun until I got podded :I Only have myself to blame though |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
621
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Luc Chastot wrote:I lost a frig and 200m in implants to what should have been an easy Cormorant kill, but turned out to be an OG-boosted ship with insta-lock. We are sorry for your loss. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
621
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec. That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way. I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying. Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading? The balance is there because you have the same options. As I am sure you already know it will take the same amount of skill points for all players to train gunnery 5, if you don't chose to that is fine, but don't cry about balance afterward. You have the same options as you opponent in a duel, you can bring RR support, and OGB support, hell after you accept the duel you can dock up real quick and switch ships completely, and your opponent can do the same. That is balance in a sandbox. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Bud Austrene
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Bud Austrene wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec. That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way. I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying. Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading? The balance is there because you have the same options. As I am sure you already know it will take the same amount of skill points for all players to train gunnery 5, if you don't chose to that is fine, but don't cry about balance afterward. You have the same options as you opponent in a duel, you can bring RR support, and OGB support, hell after you accept the duel you can dock up real quick and switch ships completely, and your opponent can do the same. That is balance in a sandbox.
But is that new player friendly? Is that in the best interest of CCP? I do believe they are wanting to increase their income.
What you are talking about got EVE to where it is today, but from all indication they are going to continue to cater to the carebears. Where does that leave you?
Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14398
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec. That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way. I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying. Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading? Shown another way? Why would we want to change the direction CCP is heading? They already tried another direction, it was called Incarna. It happened to be the worst expansion ever released and the subscriber numbers as well as login counts took a nose dive.
They saw the error of their ways and went back the what Eve is all about. Retribution is what came as a result of that understanding and it has been the best expansion ever released.
So no, you ideas would not result in a better Eve, or a positive change. Of that I am sure. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
623
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:42:00 -
[57] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Bud Austrene wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec. That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way. I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying. Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading? The balance is there because you have the same options. As I am sure you already know it will take the same amount of skill points for all players to train gunnery 5, if you don't chose to that is fine, but don't cry about balance afterward. You have the same options as you opponent in a duel, you can bring RR support, and OGB support, hell after you accept the duel you can dock up real quick and switch ships completely, and your opponent can do the same. That is balance in a sandbox. Where does that leave you? Wherever I want to be. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Velicitia
Open Designs
1188
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 22:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:It is already easy enough for players in high sec, no need to make it easier. And a Shepard would never try to de claw and pull the teeth of a lion they shoot them, kinda like high sec. That does not seem like a good balance and that is what i am saying. That is what the future holds unless CCP can be shown another way. I came up with one that i think would have positive results. It is better than the results you are prophesying. Do you have any ideas that could sway CCP to change the direction that they seem to be heading?
You're missing the point.
In Hisec, the sheep are the AFK-miners and uber carebears that cry for a mechanics change every ******* time they lose a ship -- it's hisec, it should be 100% safe all the time.
The lions are the pilots in the "leet pee vee pee" corps (and, to a degree, bored nullsec pilots).
The shepherds are an in-between. skilled enough in PVP to be a lion ... but not necessarily looking for lulzy / easy kills.
Now, this isn't to say that shepherds are always "the good guys" -- I probably fall pretty solidly into that category, but I will shoot someone in the face for "no reason". Or, I get into a funk of "leave me the hell alone" and probably look more like a sheep... |

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
343
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 00:20:00 -
[59] - Quote
Bud Austrene wrote:But is that new player friendly? Is that in the best interest of CCP? I do believe they are wanting to increase their income.
Actually, just the unfair nature of EVE pvp and the open world setting is the most new player friendly element.
The lack of premade fiilters is what allow you to bring with you in gang a 5 days old player and to give him a role, even only to add a point or a web, and the be the hero, e decisive element in the fight.
In your world that 5 days old player would be stucked forever in 1 vs 1 duels against other 5 days old players with always the same identical ships. And so for month, without a chance to feel a real PVP situation.
Keep in mind:
"Fairness" always protect the status quo, ensure the one with more power to hold their position saving them from some unexpected event; like if I'm going to gank an hopeless noob and all of sudden 10 more noob jump in to take me in trap. Buaaah is unfair 10 vs 1! Yes, is unfair, and is fine so.
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