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General Killah	Posted - 2005.08.14 18:44:00 - [1] I have used these in many of my setups for months now, I find it very useful. Being able to kill someone but get away even while being held down, it allows me to lose nothing while inflicting loss on the other party. NOW, 99.99% of the universe hates warp cores in combat, it's called a n00bish tactic etc. What I don't understand is why. Sure you can't kill someone as easy, but really that means they have a better setup than you. The point that you can't kill things fast enough is mute because I still rip through things as does everyone else I know who uses them. So why do people hate them? CCP put them in the game to be used as another module, a tactic someone could use, just like tracking enhancers or armor hardners. It's legit, so why does everyone make a fuss? No flames please, just explanation. --------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Layrex	Posted - 2005.08.14 18:49:00 - [2] I use them and I don't care what all the egotistical saddo's who get too into this game say. They exist to be used. If you use them you have less tank/damage so there's nothing to complain about. ------------------------------
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.08.14 18:54:00 - [3] Because then people who use 8 WCS turn around and *** about how the game is so gank-oriented, etc... Of course it ***** is, when you need 8 ships just to hold someone consistantly. There's also the fact that WCS are a substitute for player intellegence in properly preparing and picking battles. But thats a whole different issue. ------------------------------------------------ Derailing threads with logic since 1992
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.08.14 18:57:00 - [4] Not to mention that the advantages in low slots some ships get in relation to Warp Stabs, is unbalancing. But my only suggestion is they be made hi slot and have to be activated. ~Sobe Looking for a combat corp?
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:09:00 - [5] I'll agree that their use is justified when using a small force to attack a larger one. Hit and run, get in and get out. However, i won't change my viewpoint of using them in small engagements of similar numbers. If you screw up you should pay for it. Don't be a bad loser \| DPS Spreadsheet
Joshua Keeling	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:12:00 - [6] People get ****ed because WCS allow them to get away after inflicting damage/accomplishing their mission. A good tactic we once used was having a few Megathrons, say four, and having 4 WCS and 3 Magnetic Field Stab II. You warp in at about 35km... unload your 425mm Rail II's on the designated target.. blow it up.. and warp out. Very effective and you never lose a ship because everyone can get out... but when you combine 28 425mm Rail II's with antimatter 4 wep mods each onto one target.. he goes down quite quickly. WCS 4tw. Josh
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:12:00 - [7] anyone that shield tank have a chance of using warp core stabs! LOL Joking, but it's kinda true..
Kaleeb	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:15:00 - [8] I have no problem with 1or2 being used its when a ship has eight it get gets alittle silly. Shield tankers have the advantage with stabs as it doesnt gimp their setups Http://Guc.webinventions.co.uk
Lorth	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Blind Fear Because then people who use 8 WCS turn around and *** about how the game is so gank-oriented, etc... Of course it ***** is, when you need 8 ships just to hold someone consistantly. There's also the fact that WCS are a substitute for player intellegence in properly preparing and picking battles. But thats a whole different issue. Yep pretty much it. Plus I think it leads to idiots running around making fools of them selves. These are type of people who pile on the stabs, then run from every single fight, simply because they've gimped thier set up so baddly they have next to no chance of killing a simular sized ship. Fighting these people nearly always leads to them warping to a safe spot, only to smack you untill you leave local or block them, because they need to express to everyone thier uberness, or your suckyness in not being able to kill them. Further, your often lucky enough to find groups of these people. You can instantly tell who these people are, because they will refuse to fight anything resembling even odds. And why would you? Its like fighting with only half your slots full. These people are even more annoying, because thier no way to actually hold them in place, without having 5 times as many ships as they do, for the solo purpose of tackling them. So these people run around, and use the gank, and get some kills. And of course, this means they are the leet PVP'rs, simply because they have managed to kill a few ships, while avoiding the need for any real player skills. While at the same time forgetting all the real fights they could have fought, and maybe won, and actually have gotten more kill mails then they have now.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Kaleeb Shield tankers have the advantage with stabs as it doesnt gimp their setups Assuming they have CPU out the arse. ~Sobe Looking for a combat corp?
TWD	Posted - 2005.08.14 19:45:00 - [11] The people that know how to do PvP combat don't need WCS.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.08.14 20:25:00 - [12] I think it's people that sit off of a gate, ganking. Then when someone gets the balls to go after the ganker, it's discovered they have 3x stabs. Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC \| USAC
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.08.14 20:59:00 - [13] Well its really a doubled edged sword. In small groups when fighting larger groups at close range you need stabs. You WILL be blobbed 3 or 4 to 1, and the stabs ensure that you are able to go in, fight, and have a reasonable chance of having some of you survive. Sure you dont need stabs when you have 50 bs doing snipe fights, but that combat is lame anyways so who cares. Now I'm talking 1-2 stabs, as having anymore is so lame that it should be an exploit. As far as using stabs to counter blobbing, its really a chicken vs egg type of thing. Say you go in and kill someone, then you get blobbed and cant get out and die. Next time you decide to fit stabs to get away from the blob, you get a kill and get out. Now they blob more to counter your stabs, forcing you to fit more stabs, forcing them to blob more, etc. But anyways, I feel that stabs should remain lowslots but get a stacking penalty where fitting anymore than 2 is basically worthless. I've fought against 5 stab ravens and 6-7 stab smartbombing megas, and its completely lame. The current penaltys of stabs, mainly losing a lowslot, are countered by the people using stabs simply blobbing themselves. It doesnt matter that a stabbed ship does less damage than a non-stab ship, because most people fitting 4+ stabs fly around in gangs of similarly fitted ships, and focus firing counteracts the less damage they do. Critics rave: "Drunk you suck"
Drew Peacock	Posted - 2005.08.14 21:19:00 - [14] Originally by: General Killah So why do people hate them? If you are a mining in low sec then you don't care if the pirate that jumps your mining op dies or warps away. Your goal is to mine. However there are some who play this game solely for the kills. And for them, someone who uses a WCS to leave a fight denies them the kill. So to these 1337 pirates the WCS is a bad thing and anyone that uses them must be a noOb. I find it best to ignore them.
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.08.14 21:23:00 - [15] Originally by: Drew Peacock Originally by: General Killah So why do people hate them? If you are a mining in low sec then you don't care if the pirate that jumps your mining op dies or warps away. Your goal is to mine. However there are some who play this game solely for the kills. And for them, someone who uses a WCS to leave a fight denies them the kill. So to these 1337 pirates the WCS is a bad thing and anyone that uses them must be a noOb. I find it best to ignore them. We're not talking about mining operations. It says it in the title "IN COMBAT". So please, learn to read before trying to act smart. Thanks. Don't be a bad loser \| DPS Spreadsheet
Drew Peacock	Posted - 2005.08.14 21:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Dimitri Forgroth Originally by: Drew Peacock Originally by: General Killah So why do people hate them? If you are a mining in low sec then you don't care if the pirate that jumps your mining op dies or warps away. Your goal is to mine. However there are some who play this game solely for the kills. And for them, someone who uses a WCS to leave a fight denies them the kill. So to these 1337 pirates the WCS is a bad thing and anyone that uses them must be a noOb. I find it best to ignore them. We're not talking about mining operations. It says it in the title "IN COMBAT". So please, learn to read before trying to act smart. Thanks. I think, little boy, you should take your own advice. I was talking about combat, the mining op was an example of how some people play this game for more than just the kill. Now go and ask your mummy for a glass of hot milk. And tell her you have just made a complete fool of yourself on the computer.
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.08.14 21:41:00 - [17] How is mining a form of combat, exactly? I can see the point of using stabs in a mining rig. I can't understand how anyone couldn't. I usually describe combat as a "fight" rather than miners being ganked. And how exactly did i imply mining and industry is not a part of the game? Don't be a bad loser \| DPS Spreadsheet
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.08.14 21:55:00 - [18] The problem with WCS is that for every 2 low slots, you force EACH of the hostile tacklers to nerf their fitting with a med slot. And if you use 4+ WCS you basically force the hostile tacklers to dedicate PAIRS of complete HOLD tacklers to get at you. People arguing that WCS gimp the WCS-fitted ship needs to realize that the WCS also technically gimp ALL ships the enemy beings forth. EVERY other module in game actually has a counter mostly because a tackler can, if he's keen, survive long enough for the counter to arrive. But with WCS, the counter HAS to be on a single ship (two ships if you're lucky), and they CANNOT wait until backup arrives. They really MUST return as activated modules. Preferably in a slightly less convinient energy slot, such as medium. Again. Of course, there was a reason they were moved away from the medium slots. Nobody used WCS and a single disruptor was ALWAYS enough... geeesh... What a mess -- Don't post nerf-threds, especially not as a joke. It's not funny, and you come across as a complete idiot.
odman	Posted - 2005.08.14 21:59:00 - [19] Well, you might just ask where do you need warp scramblers. If you believe in fair fight and don't wan't to seriously hamper your rig leave those scramblers away.. well atleast us noobs could hunt some rats without getting ass ganked by an assault ship. How are we supposed to fight if we'r having 100k boss giving it's best at us while we'r warp and target scrambled. Seriously PVE ship can't deal with PVP ship.
Elektra Storm	Posted - 2005.08.14 22:03:00 - [20] Originally by: odman Seriously PVE ship can't deal with PVP ship. Just PvE with a PvP setup, i dont leave home without my scramblers
odman	Posted - 2005.08.14 22:21:00 - [21] Originally by: Elektra Storm Originally by: odman Seriously PVE ship can't deal with PVP ship. Just PvE with a PvP setup, i dont leave home without my scramblers Dun leave home without my wcs
GoGo Yubari	Posted - 2005.08.14 22:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Ithildin People arguing that WCS gimp the WCS-fitted ship needs to realize that the WCS also technically gimp ALL ships the enemy beings forth. I don't wanna get into the "nerf the WCS" bandwagon here (nor the "don't nerf WCS" one either), maybe it should be looked into, but ... I don't think your logic in the above quote holds water here. The idea of fitting modules in your ship is to a) enhance your effectiveness or b) reduce the effectiveness of the enemy or c) both. In this WCS isn't any different from EW or even fitting your lows in gank mode to counter enemy tanks. Also, one thing that people often forget is that while the WCS are largely defensive (and annoying for sure) in that allow escape and casual travel (not to mention making rearguard actions workable!), they also permit certain offensive tactics which are not feasible without their availability. Y'all can figure those out for yourself. To say that anyone who knows how to PvP doesn't need stabs is a rather weak generalization. PvP is a large field and the fact that your playing style doesn't accommodate their use doesn't mean nobody else can do that succesfully. A good PvPer uses whatever is available to develop his personal tools.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.08.14 22:43:00 - [23] As long as WCS exist in their current form, the only reasonable counter will be to destroy any and every ship that you encounter before it can align for warp. Judge for yourself how much you like every combat action between competent foes to be over in ~45 seconds total. ------------------------------------------------ Derailing threads with logic since 1992
odman	Posted - 2005.08.14 22:56:00 - [24] Well I can see your point in pvp if the fight gets longer then the one with more warp core str can just warp away. Just now I don't have any chance in pvp without one :>. Well usually I choose my hunting spot pretty carefully so I don't see pvp action so much anyways.
Kerby Lane	Posted - 2005.08.14 23:01:00 - [25] Edited by: Kerby Lane on 14/08/2005 23:02:07 Originally by: Blind Fear As long as WCS exist in their current form, the only reasonable counter will be to destroy any and every ship that you encounter before it can align for warp. Judge for yourself how much you like every combat action between competent foes to be over in ~45 seconds total. I dont know who do you encounter but I dont usually see people using more than 1-2 WCSs and tackler can hold the target in 70-80% of the cases. Basicly all multi WCS people in region are well known . If you insist on hunting geddons in travel fittings setup a bubble then.
Saicon	Posted - 2005.08.14 23:06:00 - [26] WCS are awesome. There's nothing better than reading the message "*** has started trying to warp scramble you" as you zoom away to safety with your 100mil cargo intact. Arrive at random planet (100km because EVERYONE warps within 15km when pursuing), cloak, refrain from smacktalking, log off for an hour or so because there's no way you're escaping that system before then. People hate WCS because without them, they'd have been able to feast on that 100mil cargo of yours. Originally by:** Necrologic This made me laugh so hard cottage cheese came out of my nose. More disturbingly, i wasn't eating cottage cheese at the time.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.08.14 23:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Blind Fear As long as WCS exist in their current form, the only reasonable counter will be to destroy any and every ship that you encounter before it can align for warp. Judge for yourself how much you like every combat action between competent foes to be over in ~45 seconds total. I hate stabs, because in many situations I feel as if I'm foreced to gank people rather then actually fight them. I would much perfer a 1v1, or 5v5, however when I need to get on TS and ask half the corp to come with frigs and 4 points of scramble each, in order to hold down a target, it becomes a gank, and no longer a fight. Fights are far more fun, and I think that the number of multi stab BS's one encounters can indirectly lead to more ganking. Stabs arn't nessasarly the problem. Its more the system as a whole. Instas, safe spots, stabs, etc etc. If used right, the mechanics esentually give smart player almost 100% immunity, assuming they don't fall victum to utter dumb luck.
Antoinette Civari	Posted - 2005.08.14 23:19:00 - [28] Edited by: Antoinette Civari on 14/08/2005 23:20:11 Originally by: Saicon People hate WCS because without them, they'd have been able to feast on that 100mil cargo of yours. Actually people hate them because its too easy to fight with them. Sure i can understand that it might be useful when fighting heavily outnumbered but with your lowslots full of stabs and a good anti frig setup you can basically move freely around through hostile sopace unless completely stupid. Btw, your post sounds like you have never experienced the "bumpage of doom" .. works like a charm when you are hunting haulers alone =o
Attiladehun	Posted - 2005.08.15 00:10:00 - [29] i never use wcs on my combat ship, why because i rather have that extra hardner or dmg mod to do more dmg and survive longer. Besides if you come into a fleet of frigs even with youre wcs you won't get away and then you can at least deal dmg and win with a fair chance. wcs just have too low requirment fittings, make them 50cpu or something. Wcs give you a chance to survive so should the requirements be higher so that the rest of youre setup is gimped while now you can even well fit a gank setup and have wcs that's plain stupid, either you fight or you don't. If you can't afford loosing a ship then don't pvp. And wcs on a frig is just the stupidst thing ever hence 50cpu, it's a damn frig man.
madaluap	Posted - 2005.08.15 00:29:00 - [30] Originally by: General Killah Being able to kill someone but get away even while being held down, it allows me to lose nothing while inflicting loss on the other party. this part m8, i cant do to you, what you can do to me. a lot of people think about it this way too: your setup sucks because you need stabs, if you dont use bad setups you dont need stabs. also people laughing at you while you completely ******* owned em but they still could warp out is something that doesnt make stabs popular. and the final reason that is so obvious: I like explosions more than warp trails.

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