| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
gfldex
   |
Posted - 2005.08.16 15:09:00 -
[1]
Let's face it fleet battles are boring. OK the fireworks are fun when both
parties are willing to fight but basicly it's calling targets and counting
booms. With the game mechanics we got today there is indeed no other valid
tactics. Ships that pop can't harm your friends afterward so kill anything
as fast as posible is the way to go. Jamming is an option but it's
randomness makes it risky to rely on. And a dead jammer can't jam anymore.
That's why they are such a nice primary. :)
After weeks of sleepless nights an idea formed in my mind witch should break
as little as posible while giving a huge malus on concentrate fire. Every
shot given at a target lowers the sig radius of that target slightly for a
short time. If the malus duration is way lower as the shorest RoF of any
turrets a one on one fight is not effected at all. Small groups would not
see an effect too so shooting the jammer or the gankageddon first is still
working in that case.
If a target is shooten the sig target bonus limits the maximum damage it
will take per time. If you get close to not hitting at all the malus timer would
ran out and more hits would come through. Weapons with low RoF would see less
impact. Frigs and loads of drones would be more nerfed then torps, tachs and
arties. (Did I just wrote "more nerfed then"? Holy!)
Lock time will be affected too but you have to lock a target
anyway _befor_ you can shoot it. So shooting all at the same target is not
the very best option. More tactics please gentlement!
Structures or rats can be spared from that effect or not depending on the
nerf willingness of TomB. (Nerfing entire fleets! WOOHOO!)
Every good suggestion of altering the game mechanics needs a semi since
fiction like explanation. Here is mine. :)
The hammering noise of all that hits lowers the performance of the signature
generator gnomes and as a result the output strength of that generator. :->
I hope that makes sence at all. Have fun ripping me appart.
/me mumbles: So how to join a noob corp again?
--
$ perl -e 'do not $fear and do not die;'
|
Zaldiri
|
Posted - 2005.08.16 16:25:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Zaldiri on 16/08/2005 16:25:35
Edited by: Zaldiri on 16/08/2005 16:25:03
from the drawing board:
Combat Revisited
This is the project name for a number of combat sub-projects. It includes thoughts that prolong combat, make it more tactical and versatile. Diminishing returns when multiple hostiles shoot you at the same time, nerf the stacking nerf, go over the mile long list of new items, modules, abilites, skills we want to release, mostly focused on more defensive abilities and effective countermeasures.
-----------------------------------------------
Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
|
Tallena Curie
|
Posted - 2005.08.16 16:35:00 -
[3]
Yeah, 'cause concentration of force in the smallest possible area isn't actually a time tested military doctrine or anything.
Sorry, but this idea kind of flies in the face of physics and general combat tactics. I don't think that what little realism EVE has should be thrown away to keep people from being bored. 
|
Zzazzt
|
Posted - 2005.08.16 17:48:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: gfldex
Let's face it fleet battles are boring.
The majority of Eve's PvP population will disgree with you there. It's the waiting around that's boring, not the battles.
____________________________________________
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=202351 |
TuRtLe HeAd
|
Posted - 2005.08.16 22:47:00 -
[5]
The battles are awesome !
its the Time it takes fleets to get organised.
Heres what really happens.
Fleet A Decides Operation monday night all to attend.
they invade enemies space
Fleet B (the enemy) spends the next 2 hours gathering numbers to fight back.
By that time theres been 1 big battle Fleet B's lost countless ships cos Fleet A called the shots And Fleet A logs off cos they waited so long for the battle to happen in the first place !
But the battles them selves are a Pure adrenaline rush ! |
FalloutBoy
|
Posted - 2005.08.17 03:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd
The battles are awesome !
its the Time it takes fleets to get organised.
Heres what really happens.
Fleet A Decides Operation monday night all to attend.
they invade enemies space
Fleet B (the enemy) spends the next 2 hours gathering numbers to fight back.
By that time theres been 1 big battle Fleet B's lost countless ships cos Fleet A called the shots And Fleet A logs off cos they waited so long for the battle to happen in the first place !
But the battles them selves are a Pure adrenaline rush !
sums it up pretty well. but the attacking force isn't always the one to win
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.08.17 07:44:00 -
[7]
more players in eve as we appraoch 100k - there will be more playres and more rapid fleet battles
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.08.17 08:13:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Noriath on 17/08/2005 08:14:05
My idea:
Give all structure 95% resists to everything.
Give structure a slow regeneration rate, like 1 point per second.
If your structure is damaged you can't warp anyomre.
If your structure is down to 75% your target range is set to 0.
If your structure is down to 50% all your cargo except any ammo type will automaticaly jettison.
Give Legistics ship the unique ability to carry new remote structure repairers.
What will this do?
Alows you to knock enemy ships out of the battle without destroying them.
Makes it ineffective to concentrate fire till someone is dead since you can just get them down to under 75% and shoot the next person, then finish them off later.
Makes tanking more worthwhile again, since you have a chance of rejoining the battle after your structure comes back.
Makes structure repairers acctually useful. (pure structure tanking won't be possible, since when you get structure hits your mods take damage, so sooner or later the ship has no mods left and dies...)
Pirates can get cargo without killing their target.
Flying a faster ship will be a lot more usefull, since once you go into structure you will have time to try to manuver out of the enemies range...
Battles will be more like cool movie battles where ships take massive damage, internal systems getting destroyed and ensins being thrown over their consoles... In eve they just blow up like some kind of Hindenburg as soon as their armor is gone...
Logistics ships will rock.
And last but not least... Structure won't be a complete joke that makes no difference whatsoever.
|
Katarinah
|
Posted - 2005.08.17 16:18:00 -
[9]
Leadership bonuses benefit the large gang more. But why not the smaller gang? Smaller groups generally are easier to lead.
Like the structure idea.
|
Svengali
|
Posted - 2005.08.18 19:25:00 -
[10]
I have to say, this structure idea sounds awesome. Some variations on it could be:
* As structure is destroyed, CPU and grid decrease.
+ Additionally, modules are either destroyed or jettisoned into space, starting with high slots.
More benefits of this idea:
* Target calling and large fleet battles become much more tactical. Do you call target X with everyone and guarantee him being knocked out of the fight and possibly destroyed, or split your fire with what _should_ knock 3 or 4 people out?
* This would make tanking more viable. Since focused fire has little to no penalty, it makes no sense to tank since tactics consist of "So and so is primary, this guy is secondary, repeat".
- With this change if a ship is not tanking 3 tempests will kill it sufficiently fast, but if it happens to be, it might take 6 to do it.
* Information now has much more use. Module scans of ships would be very helpful before and during the fight. This makes another role for newbs. It also makes fleet commanders that can react to new information faster, better than ones that cannot.
|
Clowdancer
|
Posted - 2005.08.18 19:33:00 -
[11]
totaly disagree, fleet battles are absolutly ok. if to change something then it is introduction of formation warp (all ships go to warp at the same time, arrive at the same time in specified formation), some more strategic tools for fleet command (breaking gang into subgangs & assign targets).
|
Oitinius
|
Posted - 2005.08.18 22:51:00 -
[12]
Perhaps a new thread should be created with this structure idea? It seems like a great idea, not only for fleet battles but also for the game in general.
|
Marcus Aurelius
|
Posted - 2005.08.18 23:37:00 -
[13]
The diminishing return thing will never make it on to TQ.
|
duduk
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 02:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 17/08/2005 08:14:05
My idea:
Give all structure 95% resists to everything.
Give structure a slow regeneration rate, like 1 point per second.
If your structure is damaged you can't warp anyomre.
If your structure is down to 75% your target range is set to 0.
If your structure is down to 50% all your cargo except any ammo type will automaticaly jettison.
Give Legistics ship the unique ability to carry new remote structure repairers.
What will this do?
Alows you to knock enemy ships out of the battle without destroying them.
Makes it ineffective to concentrate fire till someone is dead since you can just get them down to under 75% and shoot the next person, then finish them off later.
Makes tanking more worthwhile again, since you have a chance of rejoining the battle after your structure comes back.
Makes structure repairers acctually useful. (pure structure tanking won't be possible, since when you get structure hits your mods take damage, so sooner or later the ship has no mods left and dies...)
Pirates can get cargo without killing their target.
Flying a faster ship will be a lot more usefull, since once you go into structure you will have time to try to manuver out of the enemies range...
Battles will be more like cool movie battles where ships take massive damage, internal systems getting destroyed and ensins being thrown over their consoles... In eve they just blow up like some kind of Hindenburg as soon as their armor is gone...
Logistics ships will rock.
And last but not least... Structure won't be a complete joke that makes no difference whatsoever.
and how does this effect 1v1 or 2v2 fights. your suggestion fixes one problem but introduces another -which isn't a good fix.
how would this effect npc'ing?! I have been taken down to structure many times while npc'ing. by your suggestion I wouldn't be able to warp out. that would ruin the npc'ing
side of the game.
IMO this would cause more problems than fix. Don't forget there is more to the game than fleet battles. You need to come up with a fix that works for all cases.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 05:13:00 -
[15]
No, it doesn't ruin anything.
First of all, I don't see how this makes small fights worse. Yea it takes longer to kill someone, so what? We're talking about freakin battleships here, they are a mile long, they don't just go up in smoke if you cough at them. Fights will be a lot more interesting because there is acctually time for some manuvering, knocking out an oponents systems, repairing a few things - all that good stuff.
Secondly, if your structure gets hit while NPCing you suck noodles at NPCing. I mean what's the big deal here? If you notice that you can't hold your tank you should be warping long before your structure even starts getting hit. If your structure is getting hit so fast that you can't do that you'd be dead before you could warp anyways.
|
Skull Bunny
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 07:36:00 -
[16]
Structure Idea...I like it.
Its weird, but possible. It would make it damn near impossible to gate tank for Pirates, thou.
Also, unless I am wrong (quite possibly), but modules don't take damage until the ship is destroyed. And, that makes hull repairing a very good possibility.
Also, sadly, once you get past a ships main defences, It should pop quickly. If i hit a Turtle with a hammer 10 times to get rid of its shell, it shouldn't take another 20 hits to kill it.
The formation warping is a great idea!!! I have no idea how many times I have lost a shipsimply because I was alligned to the target first.
What I think needs to happen for Blob wars is the use of formations. In real life, you don't just send 100 Carriers in arandom mess across the Pasific to destroy something, so why should you in EVE?
Should be a fleet Commander Trainable skill that gives knowledge of a few different Formations.
EX: The Shield & Spear
Requires: 5+ Shield Pilots, and 5+ Spear Pilots
Upon Warp Exit, Shield pilots form a outer sphere, with spear pilots inside. 50% of all damage to a spear pilot is distributed evenly instead to the shield pilots.
Spear pilots are allowed the Freedom of movement, but must remain within the protective sphere. Damage dealt from within the shere is not redirected.
|
TuRtLe HeAd
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 09:37:00 -
[17]
There has been a structure idea like this arleady .
All it would acheive is no acuall ship losses in Fleet combat. to be honest it stands to reason that When a ship enters Structure its at its weakest, Its held together by bulkheads and bolts.
The current system isn't broken so dont try fixing it.
It does raise problems like the other guy said when 1 vs 1 or smaller skirmishes as well.
all aspects of PvP at the moment are ace fun , the only time its not is when you are victim to a Gankage (1 vs Loads) |
Hera Ludheilen
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 10:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Hera Ludheilen on 19/08/2005 10:18:50
My thought about fleet fights.
Main problem is that the one called primary will get ganked in seconds.
Some say decrease damage on one that gets targeted by more ships.
I don't know what this is worth, but maybe giving the option to a player that his name doesnt show up anymore on overviews would help...
the oppositng fleet would only see ship... corp...ally but not the name of the player.
Primary targets would be kind of ships now, like Scorpions, bbs... not players
I know u can still get taged...
as i said don't know if its a good idea but had that thought
|
duduk
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 12:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Noriath
No, it doesn't ruin anything.
First of all, I don't see how this makes small fights worse. Yea it takes longer to kill someone, so what? We're talking about freakin battleships here, they are a mile long, they don't just go up in smoke if you cough at them. Fights will be a lot more interesting because there is acctually time for some manuvering, knocking out an oponents systems, repairing a few things - all that good stuff.
Secondly, if your structure gets hit while NPCing you suck noodles at NPCing. I mean what's the big deal here? If you notice that you can't hold your tank you should be warping long before your structure even starts getting hit. If your structure is getting hit so fast that you can't do that you'd be dead before you could warp anyways.
Yes it would ruin the game.
So lets say I take hull damage in a 1v1. How do I warp anywhere if my warp core is disabled? Do I hope that I've packed my mwd so I can push out from the combat zone. So I'm stuck in a system and I can't warp anywhere. Yeah lots of people would have fun with that one. If I'm in a hot zone that means I'm pretty much dead when the next hostile comes along.
1v1 is fine
2v2 is fine
30v30 isn't fine. boosting the resists on a ship so it can handle the firepower of a 30 ship fleet would ruin smaller engagments. If you can't see that then you really should give your head a shake.
As far as the NPC comment. I fly a close range Tempest, have been since June 2003, and ya every now and then I get taken into structure.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 16:23:00 -
[20]
I said that structure would have a regeneration rate so after a while you can warp off again, even if you have no way of repairing the ship otherwise.
I said logistics ships would be able to fit remote structure repairers as a new special ability, so having one to clean up after a battle would be important in keeping your fleet mobile unless you want everyone to carry a hull repairer.
If your ship is so badly damaged that it takes forever to repair and you don't have a repairmodule or logistics ship on hand it would be your own damn fault. Welcome to the wonderful world of planing ahead.
And if you absoloutly have to get in another ship right in that instant and can't wait you can still hit the auto destruct and warp off in a pod. Or leave it intact if its stranded in space your faction controlls to be salvaged later.
Either way, there is nothing bad about this idea, it would just require you to think a little before you fight.
|
MouseOnMars
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 21:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: gfldex
Let's face it fleet battles are boring.
No mate, YOU are boring. You see something that doesn't work at the moment, and instead of saying "hey lets fix that, it'd be fun if it was really strategic and worked like a real navy fleet" you go "lets nerf it beyond repair so that we never have it in eve ever".
Stop being such a killjoy, this goes not just for you but for everyone. Have a sense of adventure for once, a little bit of excitement and fun doing something a little different or interesting never hurt anyone. This is just a GAME, the object is to have FUN. Not to hop in a Raven and solo kill some random people in 0.0 because nothing else is as "leet" or whatever. Eve isn't about flying whichever ship is best with whatever setup makes you the most indestructable - being able to kill anything does not enlarge your *****, nor is it fun if it's all you ever do - and if you don't understand that then yes, YOU are boring, and YOU don't get it, and it's your suggestions that are slowing down the progression of this game and taking out the element of fun for those of us who just want to do what we want without having someone imposing their stupid "leet" standards on us, telling us that we should'nt fly X Y or Z because it's "crap", or not to do A B or C because it's "lame" or "boring".
|
SengH
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 21:24:00 -
[22]
Has the OP even been in a fleet battle? Cus its alot of things and boring is NOT one of them lol.
Sounds to me like hes getting fleet battles confused with blob wars.
|
Saladin
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 21:36:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Saladin on 19/08/2005 21:37:43
There is a far more elegant solution imo to make fleet battles more challenging and interesting.
Make turrets require a line of sight to fire on its target. This way fleet formations and positioning have real meaning, and it would add a unique role to missle boats as they are guided and navigate around obstacles to hit their target. In addition, make defender missles defend the gang instead of the single ship. This would create a role for cruisers and frigates to function as 'fleet defenders'.
One only needs to read about the battle of trafalgar or other similar battles to see how positioning and formations were important and how they allowed the master tactician, as opposed to the bigger blob, to take the day.
----
|
MouseOnMars
|
Posted - 2005.08.19 22:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Saladin
Edited by: Saladin on 19/08/2005 21:37:43
There is a far more elegant solution imo to make fleet battles more challenging and interesting.
Make turrets require a line of sight to fire on its target. This way fleet formations and positioning have real meaning, and it would add a unique role to missle boats as they are guided and navigate around obstacles to hit their target. In addition, make defender missles defend the gang instead of the single ship. This would create a role for cruisers and frigates to function as 'fleet defenders'.
One only needs to read about the battle of trafalgar or other similar battles to see how positioning and formations were important and how they allowed the master tactician, as opposed to the bigger blob, to take the day.
EXACTLY.
It's far more interesting and fun to do it that way than to get a blob and do something as standard and dull as locking and volleying.
I suggested in another thread that gang leaders should have the option of formation control, which would allow him to position all the ships in the gang into a tactical formation (but he would require certain skills to be able to do this). This would add a whole new element to war in Eve, it would jump from what is effectively 1v1 fighting, to fleet battles that involve real strategy and tactics.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.08.20 00:38:00 -
[25]
Yea, except for that little problem that giving turrets line of sight would require a complete overhaul of the games engine, and not just changes to the existing program.
Even though it is a good sugestion from a gameplay standpoint, its a horrible sugestion from an implementation standpoint.
|
Dallenn
|
Posted - 2005.08.20 05:46:00 -
[26]
Hih, this is no longer about just fleet battles but some of the suggested ideas are nice because of other things:
1. If the structured ship is disabled and therefore can be salvaged by the enemy, this can mean that PvP becomes profitable, another major discussion/problem in Eve and something which many PvP-only players have asked for. Of course there would be repercussions: more incentive for piracy and so on. But it is worth considering because PvP-only players tend to lose money over time and may end up quitting Eve.
2. Defenders at the moment are not very useful. Having them defend the gang ships would possibly fix not only defenders but T1 cruisers as well (which still are a bit weak option when it comes to mainstream PvP). Possibly this feature would make fleet battles lag awesomely if implemented wrong (think about 200 ships in visual shooting missiles at each other and all the defender missiles trying to figure out which missile to target). Maybe it could be implemented so that any missile from the ships you have targeted could be defended against, or any missile within 20 km (except gang missiles), or such.
--
Roleplaying in Eve |
Saladin
|
Posted - 2005.08.22 17:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Noriath
Yea, except for that little problem that giving turrets line of sight would require a complete overhaul of the games engine, and not just changes to the existing program.
Even though it is a good sugestion from a gameplay standpoint, its a horrible sugestion from an implementation standpoint.
Missles currently cannot move through solid matter to strike a target. Plus most of the difficult programming has been done. In EvE, when you look in your view, you cannot see the ships obscured from your vision - i.e. the graphics engine already computes whats in your line of sight and what is hidden! I'm not saying that porting that to the gun engine its hard, just that the problem has already been solved in another aspect of the game - you don't need to re-invent the weheel.
----
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.08.22 18:05:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Noriath on 22/08/2005 18:08:22
The visual aspect of the game has no influence on the underlying calculations and models. Ships in Eve appear to have a distinctive shape on your scren, but to the computer they are just points in space with a radius at which a collision is registered.
That's how you get great graphics while keeping the workload for the server down. All the pretty things you see on your screen are how your computer interprets and shows you what the server tells it, but none of the visual aspects matter to the server, they are just an interpretation of much simpler dynamics.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |