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HippoKing	Posted - 2005.08.17 22:35:00 - [1] this ent an original idea, but i still think we need a short range, high damage form of crusier size missile (in the mould of the rocket or the torpedo) my question is: "can anyone think of a good reason why not to have them (like there are short and long range version of EVERY other weapon system around)?" also the answer "OH NOES, MY AC/BLASTER/PULSE DPS NO LONGER WTFPWNAGEBBQS ANYONE USING HEAVY MISSILES" is not a good one
Stuart85	Posted - 2005.08.17 22:41:00 - [2] Edited by: Stuart85 on 17/08/2005 22:42:48 The only problem I can see is the sheer amount of skills missile users are going to have. Seperate skills for every type of launcher is a bit much compared to 'Small Hybid', 'Medium Hybrid' etc. We'll have two small (rocket, standard), two medium (heavy, light torp) and two large(cruise, torp), as well as all the ROF, damage, velocity etc skills.
Profess0r Mansechs0r	Posted - 2005.08.17 23:11:00 - [3] Originally by: Stuart85 Edited by: Stuart85 on 17/08/2005 22:42:48 The only problem I can see is the sheer amount of skills missile users are going to have. Seperate skills for every type of launcher is a bit much compared to 'Small Hybid', 'Medium Hybrid' etc. We'll have two small (rocket, standard), two medium (heavy, light torp) and two large(cruise, torp), as well as all the ROF, damage, velocity etc skills. Wow you mean compared to the 2 spec skills of each class gunnery have? Private lessons?
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.17 23:21:00 - [4] Frankly you dont need close range wepons as your missiles work at all ranges Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Stuart85	Posted - 2005.08.17 23:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Profess0r Mansechs0r Wow you mean compared to the 2 spec skills of each class gunnery have? Private lessons? Medium Hybrid + Medium Blaster Spec. + Medium Rail Spec. = 3 Heavy Missile + Light Torp + Heavy Missile Spec. + Light Torp Spec. = 4 Wow, yes.
Ravenge	Posted - 2005.08.17 23:41:00 - [6] Edited by: Ravenge on 17/08/2005 23:42:32 Originally by: Stuart85 Originally by: Profess0r Mansechs0r Wow you mean compared to the 2 spec skills of each class gunnery have? Private lessons? Medium Hybrid + Medium Blaster Spec. + Medium Rail Spec. = 3 Heavy Missile + Light Torp + Heavy Missile Spec. + Light Torp Spec. = 4 Wow, yes. Erm... to get med blaster spec and med rail spec .. you need small hybrids, small blaster spec (for med blaster spec.) and small rail spec (for the med rail spec.). so thats 6 not 3
Stuart85	Posted - 2005.08.18 00:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Ravenge Edited by: Ravenge on 17/08/2005 23:42:32 Originally by: Stuart85 Originally by: Profess0r Mansechs0r Wow you mean compared to the 2 spec skills of each class gunnery have? Private lessons? Medium Hybrid + Medium Blaster Spec. + Medium Rail Spec. = 3 Heavy Missile + Light Torp + Heavy Missile Spec. + Light Torp Spec. = 4 Wow, yes. Erm... to get med blaster spec and med rail spec .. you need small hybrids, small blaster spec (for med blaster spec.) and small rail spec (for the med rail spec.). so thats 6 not 3 Ah ok, fair enough. Never noticed that.
Calian	Posted - 2005.08.18 01:34:00 - [8] Edited by: Calian on 18/08/2005 01:34:20 Originally by: Cosmic Dragon Frankly you dont need close range wepons as your missiles work at all ranges They work at all ranges but their damage is balanced for long range, which means they do jack **** damage. As I've said before, how would turret users like it if all they could use was rails, artillery, and beams? Cause welcome to the world of missiles, that's what we get. ------------------------- I hate everyone, except you.
Gierling	Posted - 2005.08.18 01:38:00 - [9] There needs to be something that is about 3-4 hundred PG that can fire a small amount of cruise missilles. Bastards we are lest Bastards we become.
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.18 02:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Calian Edited by: Calian on 18/08/2005 01:34:20 Originally by: Cosmic Dragon Frankly you dont need close range wepons as your missiles work at all ranges They work at all ranges but their damage is balanced for long range, which means they do jack **** damage. As I've said before, how would turret users like it if all they could use was rails, artillery, and beams? Cause welcome to the world of missiles, that's what we get. Well as i really only use lasers and projectiles im quite happy dont need missiles for my ships as the bonuses work wonders my point is one heavy misslie can do say 140 damage to a frigate [ i tried some out recwently thats my average with MINIMAL SKILLS] one shot from alarg turret does on average 80-120 damage [ lasers] thats assuming its aperfect hit and not a miss with frigates good hit sa re rare so i found missiles did more than turets in general at 3 mil sp in gunnery compared to 400k in missiles reason being is... 1. Missiles do consistant damage at all ranges. 2. the accuracy of missiles are not affected by range you will always hit and do your average damage [140 for me with thermal missiles] 3. giving cruisers cruise missiles will be like letting cruisers fit mega beam lasers There fore letting cruisers use cruise misiles will seriously unballance cruisers and will do nothing to help fix missiles [not that missiles need much adjustment judging by how i can do with low missile skills]. I will say again i feel missiles are ok because when i us ehtem they do better than my guns i have 7.5 mil sp 3mil in gunnery skills, 400k in missiles. Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.18 02:38:00 - [11] Edited by: j0sephine on 18/08/2005 02:39:42 "my point is one heavy misslie can do say 140 damage to a frigate [ i tried some out recwently thats my average with MINIMAL SKILLS] one shot from alarg turret does on average 80-120 damage [ lasers]" * Heavy missile launcher with no bonus will fire every 14 seconds * Large laser turret with no bonus will fire every 6-7 seconds this means in the same time that heavy missile does its 140 damage (which sounds strangely high btw, were you shooting NPC ships?) ... the laser will shoot twice, doing 160-240 damage total. Yes, with large turret you will do more damage to frigate than with medium missile. Way to shoot the "omg you have to fit the right weapon size for the right job like we turret users do!11!one2" crowd in the foot. :s "I will say again i feel missiles are ok because when i us ehtem they do better than my guns" No; you simply need to think about damage you're doing over time, not how much damage you do per shot. Using missiles is like using your lasers with nothing but standard or infrared lens. Try to fly your ship for a week without touching the multifrequency lenses. Then come back and tell how you liked it. -.o
Calian	Posted - 2005.08.18 02:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Cosmic Dragon Well as i really only use lasers and projectiles im quite happy dont need missiles for my ships as the bonuses work wonders my point is one heavy misslie can do say 140 damage to a frigate First of all, if you don't use missiles, don't reply on threads about missiles, you obviously don't have the experience necessary to make an informed opinion about them. As far as 140 damage to a frigate, I don't know what frigate you're shooting at, but let me tell you from someone who DOES actually use missiles as their primary and only weapon, that's NOT the normal damage. ------------------------- I hate everyone, except you.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.18 02:43:00 - [13] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 18/08/2005 02:45:10 The ignorance in some of these missile-oriented threads just HURTS. For gods sake people, click on the link in my thread and figure out how missile damage works before spouting figures out of your butt. The only way a heavy missile will do 140 damage to a frigate is if the frigate turns on its MWD and somehow manages to keep its velocity down under 1000 m/s. Even then, 140 damage every 10 seconds or so with a Heavy Launcher isn't as badass as you may think... -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Bleakheart	Posted - 2005.08.18 05:07:00 - [14] Could've been two heavies counted as one hit, like has been proven to happen. Seems more a reasonable number if you divided that 140 in half.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.08.18 06:18:00 - [15] Originally by: Cosmic Dragon one heavy misslie can do say 140 damage to a frigate [ i tried some out recwently thats my average with MINIMAL SKILLS] Have you played EVE since the overhaul? Originally by: Cosmic Dragon There fore letting cruisers use cruise misiles will seriously unballance cruisers and will do nothing to help fix missiles [not that missiles need much adjustment judging by how i can do with low missile skills]. both these statements woulda been true pre-coldwar - but now they are bull****, pure and simple. also, i am asking for a new form of medium weapon, not cruises for cruisers (cruises have too high a sig/explosion velocity to be useful against cruisers anyway)
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.18 08:07:00 - [16] Cruisers should get a launcher that can fit a limited amount of cruise missiles in them, to bring them out of the gutter. Cruisers have always sucked :/ ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.08.18 08:13:00 - [17] Cruise missiles work perfectly fine. If u think that MPII or 425mm rails kill plated cruiser in 2-3 seconds u are very wrong. As a matter of fact: t1 cruiser don't have any chance against raven. But has very good chances to kill any other long range bs. YAY, i want my punisher to fit capital armor repairer. You know, it is amarr frig and should tank better.
madaluap	Posted - 2005.08.18 08:36:00 - [18] but wont this mini-torp or whatever highpowered missile your thinking off make heavy missiles useless? i mean if that missile can reach 30 k that would be fair enough for pvp, but even npc-ers will start using these missiles and sit at 29 k firing those (ultra?) heavy missiles. it will completely destroy the heavy missile because its only use is long range...and because its a different weapon don't you need a different launcher? like megapulse and tachyon?
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.08.18 10:24:00 - [19] Look at this very good, but sadly very derailed or missunderstood topic! I fully support removing Light Missiles from Assault Launchers and implementing a new missile type called "Heavy Rocket" or "Pocket Torpedo" or something similar. Essentially, this will be a launcher that draws a direct paralell between to how the frigate launchers work. This means that Pocket Torps would be relatively low damage, unaffected by certain skills but high in basic stats. The higher damage per second than the Heavy Missiles will come from the superior rate of fire of the Assault Launcher and be justified by an operational range of max 20km (with skills and one ship bonus). The explosion velocity and the explosion radius should be optimized for Destroyers (i.e. slightly smaller than cruisers, but with an inbuilt damage reduction against frigaets, if not as much as H Missiles suffer) That said, Blasters (being forever THE shortest ranged turret) MUST outdamage ANY and ALL weapon types of the same category with "optimal" ship damage bonuses (0 for lasers, 1 for hybrids and missiles, and 2 for projectiles). -- Don't post nerf-threds, especially not as a joke. It's not funny, and you come across as a complete idiot.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.08.18 10:36:00 - [20] i also think there should b a shortrange, high dmg missile for cruisers, i also think the Torpedo range should b cute, but dmg should be higher (howmuch would have to be tested)
DarK	Posted - 2005.08.18 10:43:00 - [21] People still use Cruise missiles don't they? Despite the existance of torps. For one a light torp launcher would have more fitting requirements, have lower explosion velocity, velocity, etc. These would do barely any damage to a frig, and are more designed to take on Cruisers/HAC/BC/BS. 20 - 30km? max with Cerb bonusses at max, with other ships it would be less. People would still use Heavy missiles. This would simply allow people to have a choice between 2 weapon types, like everyone else gets to. Besides, if "destroying" heavy missile use on the Cerb makes it Pvp worthy, who cares? I don't.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.08.18 14:44:00 - [22] i am asking for something really f*cking short range - of similar usable range to medium blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. this would in no way kill the heavy missile - are u gonna tell me that pulses have killed beams, or blasters have killed rails, or ACs have killed arties or even that rockets have killed standard missiles
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.18 14:53:00 - [23] to reply briefly to the replys. Yes i was firing at npc frigates yes i have played since exodus yes i did take damage over time into account over 10 seconds a single laser turret fires 8 times first shot was a miss 0 damage second good hit 86 dmage third a glancing hit 42 damage fourth a miss 0 fith a miss 0 sixth a miss 0 seventh a miss 0 last hit was a miss 0 This was aginst a single frigate 50 km away who was sitting still. meanwhile 10 seconds with a single missiles launcher. one shot took a few seconds to reach him did 130 damage so taking into account that guns can miss and do no damage a lot while missiles do not and do some decent [for a laser] damage to there designated target size [for example torps = battleships]. It is true that a launcher fires less per 10 seconds than a turret but there are skills and ship bonuses for that. It is true that guns fire a lot more but the dont nessacerally do the damage. It is true that guns can do an ultra damage type called WRECKING but this happens 3% of the time [ the 3% figre is accurate it has long since beenworked out mathmatically by various people]. so using these facts imagine a ship say a raven with say 4 torp/cruise launchers and 2 heavy missile slaunchers the heavy missiles will do well against frigates and cruisers with the help of drones if you meet any tough ones and the cruise/torps's can deal with any battleships you find. Finally i apologise for thinking you wanted cruisers to use cruise missiles my mistake Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.18 14:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Bleakheart Could've been two heavies counted as one hit, like has been proven to happen. Seems more a reasonable number if you divided that 140 in half. Well if it was this bug then it must have happened to me 20 to 30 times in a row Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
CKieschnick	Posted - 2005.08.18 14:59:00 - [25] actually plate cruisers can pwn ravens now. =o
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.18 14:59:00 - [26] Originally by: Calian Originally by: Cosmic Dragon Well as i really only use lasers and projectiles im quite happy dont need missiles for my ships as the bonuses work wonders my point is one heavy misslie can do say 140 damage to a frigate First of all, if you don't use missiles, don't reply on threads about missiles, you obviously don't have the experience necessary to make an informed opinion about them. As far as 140 damage to a frigate, I don't know what frigate you're shooting at, but let me tell you from someone who DOES actually use missiles as their primary and only weapon, that's NOT the normal damage. Well your hardly an expert either as they have only just come out in there new form and well if its not normal damge for you i guess im very lucky as that is my average damage aginst frigates Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.08.18 15:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Cosmic Dragon Well your hardly an expert either as they have only just come out in there new form ask ELECTR0FREAK - he IS an expert - and missiles have been out long enough that anyone who flies a missile ship (i own a raven, a caracal and a ferox equipped with missiles) to learn the practical capabilities of missiles if what you said is true, i would like some of your missilse please
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.18 15:27:00 - [28] "if what you said is true, i would like some of your missilse please" He said he was shooting NPC frigates so aye, it's possible. The NPCs ae weird in the sense they get signature radius increase from their 'mwd' but hardly any speed boost when they use it... so heavy missiles will do nearly full potential damage on such targets. Against player-driven ship either the explosion velocity or explosion radius penalty will kick in (unless the pilot is clueless) ... which will result in much lower damage.
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.08.18 15:34:00 - [29] Originally by: j0sephine "if what you said is true, i would like some of your missilse please" He said he was shooting NPC frigates so aye, it's possible. The NPCs ae weird in the sense they get signature radius increase from their 'mwd' but hardly any speed boost when they use it... so heavy missiles will do nearly full potential damage on such targets. Against player-driven ship either the explosion velocity or explosion radius penalty will kick in (unless the pilot is clueless) ... which will result in much lower damage. Yea i have to agree with you here i did hear once before the exodus that npc's are brokek and biased to being really challenging i guess they have yet to be updated so that missiles do more realistic damage. I did try it against a fellow corp mates frigate tho cant remember what damage i did tho but it was pretty good from waht i remember ill have to try it out again to see if there is a majour difference. Saying that tho i have to say trhe ammo size is wrong too big Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.08.18 16:18:00 - [30] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 18/08/2005 02:39:42 "my point is one heavy misslie can do say 140 damage to a frigate [ i tried some out recwently thats my average with MINIMAL SKILLS] one shot from alarg turret does on average 80-120 damage [ lasers]" * Heavy missile launcher with no bonus will fire every 14 seconds * Large laser turret with no bonus will fire every 6-7 seconds this means in the same time that heavy missile does its 140 damage (which sounds strangely high btw, were you shooting NPC ships?) ... the laser will shoot twice, doing 160-240 damage total. Yes, with large turret you will do more damage to frigate than with medium missile. Way to shoot the "omg you have to fit the right weapon size for the right job like we turret users do!11!one2" crowd in the foot. :s "I will say again i feel missiles are ok because when i us ehtem they do better than my guns" No; you simply need to think about damage you're doing over time, not how much damage you do per shot. Using missiles is like using your lasers with nothing but standard or infrared lens. Try to fly your ship for a week without touching the multifrequency lenses. Then come back and tell how you liked it. -.o Your arguments are valid only if the gun user is in position to hit the frig with it's large guns, and then, except in fleet battles, where lag screw everything, the frig user deserve to die.

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