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Faramir
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Posted - 2005.08.18 10:52:00 -
[1]
Going on more or less from this thread it seems there are more problems with jumpdrives than just the "inter-node" jumping problem....
I was checking out the lightyears calculator by Omega Enterprises here and I was shocked to see the distances there are between all the systems Dreadnoughts can jump to and from...
I just checked the itemdatabase to confirm and the max jumpdistance is indeed 2,5 lightyears (on the Moros at least)
With 2,5 lightyears jumpdistance there will be VERY FEW places you can move your dreadnought from your empire 0.0-0.4 to 0.0. (Let alone move it across the map.....)
Most paths into 0.0 are longstretched "jumps" similar to the new smuggler gate-routes. And these jumps all easily outrange 2.5 lightyears. Now with skills this could be brought up 125% (at level 5). But a Dread pilot with no jumpdistance improving skills will have to make umpteen jumps it seems. And some jumps will still be impossible even with the skill trained....
Just check it out... Open up your map in Eve, set display to "security status" and check where Dreads are allowed to be and try to find the shortest "straight line" between 2 systems you would want to travel through/to. Put it in the lightyear calculator and find out how near impossible it will be to move Dreads around. (Both because of the lightyears needed to be crossed and the amount of fuel needed...)
Can anyone tell me why the base jumpdistance is 2,5 lightyears? And if so, why are we supposed to fly halfway across the galaxy to get somewhere that seems "closeby" ? Not to mention the distances that are between let's say... Delve and Fountain? Stain and Querious? Pure Blind and Cloud Ring? All Which seem unjumpable...
Could we get a more detailed explanation on Jumpdrives, distances... etc ? plz? Or tell me that my assumptions are wrong 
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:00:00 -
[2]
pre-nerfs are fine. Dreads ahve been pretty well pre-nerfed with their fuel consumption, damage dealing ability, and of course the skill training requirements.
But to make them utterly useless is going a bit far don't you think ?
If what Faramir says here is correct, the regions of outer ring, cloud ring, fountain, branch, period basis, and many, many more will be out of reach for dreadnoughts or so it seems.
So, logic dictates he is wrong.
We just would like that confirmed please.
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Jernau Gurgeh
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:04:00 -
[3]
If you can't see the point of something, don't use it.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:08:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
If you can't see the point of something, don't use it.
Right.
And that is constructive or helping us how exactly ?
We see the point of dreads fine, thank you. What we don;t see is the point of making them unable to reach half the star map.
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Mitchman
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:15:00 -
[5]
From what I can gather, the lightyear distances doesn't match up with the map and AUs that eve use. From what I have heard from testers is that it'll be able to jump around 20 jumps in one go with good skills, which is reasonable. But I guess the only way to find out is to test...
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:16:00 -
[6]
Should Dreads be able to go everywhere?
Doesn't the system as it stands give a fair advantage to those groups who can dominate a region to the extent that they can build dreads where others can't go?
Seems good to me. If anything it will create 'Dread borders', which would be a sensible thing to look at when claiming an area of space.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mitchman
From what I can gather, the lightyear distances doesn't match up with the map and AUs that eve use. From what I have heard from testers is that it'll be able to jump around 20 jumps in one go with good skills, which is reasonable. But I guess the only way to find out is to test...
That sounds alot better already.
Problem ofc being we cant test em till the hotfix for inter-node jumps comes in :p
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Avon
Should Dreads be able to go everywhere?
Doesn't the system as it stands give a fair advantage to those groups who can dominate a region to the extent that they can build dreads where others can't go?
Seems good to me. If anything it will create 'Dread borders', which would be a sensible thing to look at when claiming an area of space.
eerh, no Avon.
For example. You build a dread in low sec empire space (where mining the umpteen hundred millions of tritatium is somewhat more manageable for instance). Now, you would find out that from that part of low sec empire space, you cannot fly said dread to any 0.0 space. Nor can you traverse high sec space to go anywhere else where you could get into 0.0 space...
Would that make much sense ?
But anyway, it's moot as it's probably like Mitchman said.
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:35:00 -
[9]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 18/08/2005 11:35:21
Yup, it's gonna be a ***** to get those Dreads up to IMP space isn't it?
On a more serious note I partly agree though. All Dreads jump 2.5ly without skills, upto a maximum of 5.5ly with.
Range = 2.5 + (1 + (0.25 * JumpSkillLevel))
Now you have to think about three things when bearing in mind getting a dread to jump.
1) Fuel. Even with maximum fuel skills, a Dread can only make 3 jumps with a hold full of fuel. A Dread can carry roughly the same amount as a Indy, so 7.5 - 10.5k m3. So every 16.5ly, assuming you are jumping the maximum distance each time, will require an indy full of fuel. That is on top of another indy carrying all that ammo for when you finally get to your target.
(I am assuming that a dread uses the 17k or so of fuel, regardless of actual distance jumped)
2) Dread Jumping. That map sure look's flat doesn't it?Well it's not. Dread's jump in 3Dimensional space, so you may not be able to jump as far as it initially appears. The only good thing that a Dread has going for it, is that it effectively ignores jump lines, allowing it to get around camps or accross natural geographic barriers. Capping the U as it were.
However, remember all those support ships we mentioned earlier, the ones to carry fuel? Well...
3) Support Fleet Jumping. Even though your Dread doesn't need to use jump lines, your support ships do. This includes a ship to create the cynosural field, an indy or two to refuel the ship as well as carro ammo, and a whole bunch of escorts to stop anyone else crashing the party. You really have to rethink the path your support ships take here, it has no resemblance to the path your Dread takes.
One Dread jump, may require your support ships to take 10+ jumps to reach it; likewise what is a simple smuggler-run jump to normal ships, is impossible for a Dread.
I believe we are going to see Dreads in the future escorted by two groups. One to scout ahead, secure the jump-in point, and create a cynosural field. The other to refuel, resupply, and guard the Dread whilst it prepares to make it's next jump.
Now moving 5 Dreads, as it is rumoured that BoB has. They'll see you coming from 3 regions away.
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
eerh, no Avon.
For example. You build a dread in low sec empire space (where mining the umpteen hundred millions of tritatium is somewhat more manageable for instance). Now, you would find out that from that part of low sec empire space, you cannot fly said dread to any 0.0 space. Nor can you traverse high sec space to go anywhere else where you could get into 0.0 space...
Would that make much sense ?
But anyway, it's moot as it's probably like Mitchman said.
Well, surely that would be down to bad planning?
If there is an area you want a dread, and there is no way to fly one there, build one there.
Prove your control over the area.
It gives those who can defend the regions they claim an advantage over those who wish to attack.
If you want to attack in their space with a dread you will have to build one there. Regional conquest would be so much more than bringing a fleet down for an evenings pwnage.
Is that so wrong?
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Selak Zorander
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Posted - 2005.08.18 11:54:00 -
[11]
I dont think they need 17k of fuel for one jump.
Looking at the information from the database, yes it has an item called "Jump Drive Fuel Needed" but that is different for every dread.
If you go to one of the player decodes of the item database from the cache files, there is another item call "Jump drive Consumption amount" which is 1000 on all of them (which i read to mean you need 1000 units of fuel for each jump). You can find one here from JIDE
To give you an idea, the minmatar has 17889 for the fuel needed, and if you look at the item data on this site, browse through to Hydrogen Isotopes and you will see its item number is 17889.
Helium isotopes is 16274 (which is the number for the ammar dread)
Oxygen isotopes is 17887 (which is the number for the gallente dread)
Nitrogen isotopes is 17888 (which is the number for the caldari dread)
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Balazs Simon
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Posted - 2005.08.18 12:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 18/08/2005 11:35:21
Yup, it's gonna be a ***** to get those Dreads up to IMP space isn't it?
On a more serious note I partly agree though. All Dreads jump 2.5ly without skills, upto a maximum of 5.5ly with.
Range = 2.5 + (1 + (0.25 * JumpSkillLevel))
Now you have to think about three things when bearing in mind getting a dread to jump.
1) Fuel. Even with maximum fuel skills, a Dread can only make 3 jumps with a hold full of fuel. A Dread can carry roughly the same amount as a Indy, so 7.5 - 10.5k m3. So every 16.5ly, assuming you are jumping the maximum distance each time, will require an indy full of fuel. That is on top of another indy carrying all that ammo for when you finally get to your target.
(I am assuming that a dread uses the 17k or so of fuel, regardless of actual distance jumped)
2) Dread Jumping. That map sure look's flat doesn't it?Well it's not. Dread's jump in 3Dimensional space, so you may not be able to jump as far as it initially appears. The only good thing that a Dread has going for it, is that it effectively ignores jump lines, allowing it to get around camps or accross natural geographic barriers. Capping the U as it were.
However, remember all those support ships we mentioned earlier, the ones to carry fuel? Well...
3) Support Fleet Jumping. Even though your Dread doesn't need to use jump lines, your support ships do. This includes a ship to create the cynosural field, an indy or two to refuel the ship as well as carro ammo, and a whole bunch of escorts to stop anyone else crashing the party. You really have to rethink the path your support ships take here, it has no resemblance to the path your Dread takes.
One Dread jump, may require your support ships to take 10+ jumps to reach it; likewise what is a simple smuggler-run jump to normal ships, is impossible for a Dread.
I believe we are going to see Dreads in the future escorted by two groups. One to scout ahead, secure the jump-in point, and create a cynosural field. The other to refuel, resupply, and guard the Dread whilst it prepares to make it's next jump.
Now moving 5 Dreads, as it is rumoured that BoB has. They'll see you coming from 3 regions away.
For first read.. yep, it looks like it is a pain in the ass to move dreads around.. but when you read it second time, you discover that THIS is the GAME itself 
What you described here is realy similar to some large RL war logistics.
Support team, Scout Team, Deffens Team ect.. like when real armys move their long range big guns around in enemy territory... 
I like it .
- New sig coming soon.. |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.18 12:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 18/08/2005 12:18:07
I am not sure about the JIDE thing, I took my numbers from Eve's Item Database. So I admit, I could be wrong. Anyone actually got a Dread who can confirm how much fuel it uses per-jump?
As for the rest, re-read my post:
Originally by: Selak Zorander
I dont think they need 17k of fuel for one jump.
Looking at the information from the database, yes it has an item called "Jump Drive Fuel Needed" but that is different for every dread.
Originally by: FireFoxx80
1) Fuel. Even with maximum fuel skills, a Dread can only make 3 jumps with a hold full of fuel. A Dread can carry roughly the same amount as a Indy, so 7.5 - 10.5k m3. So every 16.5ly, assuming you are jumping the maximum distance each time, will require an indy full of fuel. That is on top of another indy carrying all that ammo for when you finally get to your target.
(I am assuming that a dread uses the 17k or so of fuel, regardless of actual distance jumped)
So, taking the Caldari Dread as an example:
- Uses 17888 of isotopes per jump, 17388 if u take fuel efficieny into account.
- Isotopes are 0.15m3 as far as I am aware.
- Has a cargo of 9500m3
- Can therefore carry, 63333.3m3 of isotopes.
- Can therefore make 63333.3 mod 17388 jumps, or 3.64.
All the other Dreads more or less fit into a similar amount.
As I say though, Dread's could use a portion of fuel, depending on distance actually jumped. Having just looked at the JIDE, I would guess that the JumpDriveConsumptionAmount is actually a percentage modifier of total. The Jump Fuel Conservation skill (or whatever it is) probably modifies this.
The point is, Dreads's aren't meant to be a tool that you can drop into any battle and expect to win. They are something that needs planning and effort.
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
Selak Zorander
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Posted - 2005.08.18 12:24:00 -
[14]
here i will explain it another way that will maybe make more sense from where i am comming from.
you say the caldari one needs 17888 fuel.
follow this link to item 17888 in the eve-online item database and see what you get.
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/manufactureresearch/materials/iceproducts/17888.asp
item number 17888 is the caldari racial isotope (makes sence that the caldari dread is fueled by it).
While i admit that I can not fly a dread yet, i would bet that the dread does not need 17888 units of fuel for one jump. that is more than a full days worth of fuel for a large control tower.
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.18 12:46:00 -
[15]
Ahhhh, ok, yes. Sounds like you are right!
Ignore my maths :(
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
Elissen
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Posted - 2005.08.18 13:48:00 -
[16]
The site isn't ready yet (product prices aren't up to date yet ect), but you might want to try out my jumptool. It should give you a better impression of jumpranges.
ICSC Jumptool
P.S. There is an issue atm with listing 0.5 systems and rounding, I'm looking into this. And use at your own risk 
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.08.18 14:04:00 -
[17]
The range is quite more than 2.5 ly, it can be increased with skills. The range is also a sphere.
Their limited range is indeed intentional and so is their consumption. A jumpdrive does not give you the ability to magically appear in the backyard of your opponent. Simple as that.
The Dreadnought is a big and powerful weapon, did you really expect to be able to jump across half the galaxy without any skills?
Also, next patch features a range indicator on the map for jumpdrives, it'll make moving them a bit easier.
_____________________________
"There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" |
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bobeeb
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Posted - 2005.08.18 14:32:00 -
[18]
are dreads restricted to 0.0?
some days ago i tried to activate a cynosural field generator in 0.4 and got a msg from concord that its forbidden in empire.
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.08.18 14:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: bobeeb
are dreads restricted to 0.0?
some days ago i tried to activate a cynosural field generator in 0.4 and got a msg from concord that its forbidden in empire.
Should be allowed in 0.3 and below, there are Starbases there to shoot 
_____________________________
"There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" |
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.18 14:54:00 -
[20]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 18/08/2005 14:58:12
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 18/08/2005 14:54:21
Oveur, what is their fuel consumption though?
Edit:
Because if it is 1000m3 (500m3 with skills) then that means a Dread can jump pretty much anywhere on a full tank and a cynosural field generator.
I know my math was wrong, but I much more preferred the idea that it would take a lot of logistics to move the thing.
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.18 14:57:00 -
[21]
"Their limited range is indeed intentional and so is their consumption. A jumpdrive does not give you the ability to magically appear in the backyard of your opponent. Simple as that.
The Dreadnought is a big and powerful weapon, did you really expect to be able to jump across half the galaxy without any skills?"
I suppose one thing to watch for is, if you make it too inconvenient to move these things around, at some point it just starts to make more sense to recycle these ships back into components, move the components using freighter with escorts and instas, and re-assemble back into dreadnaught in the other guy's backyard using their station -.o
sure, might take longer, but there's hardly reason to hurry... especially when might provide more surprise element this way, than with a trail of those cynosural field lights all across the map... :s
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: j0sephine
sure, might take longer, but there's hardly reason to hurry... especially when might provide more surprise element this way, than with a trail of those cynosural field lights all across the map... :s
Well now that gives me an idea. :) What about if you could set up cyno fields in a string that would pass the dreadnought jump along the entire way in one shot? Anyone paying attention to the map could see the route and more importantly the end sector.
Say the field doesn't establish itself between links for three minutes. So if you had a five jump route it would take you 15 minutes to establish the full route for the jump to take. For that time all the cyno fields are visible on the map, allowing a defender to take action. Basically, it would allow you to get into someone's backyard, but the longer the jump the greater the possibility one of your cyno guys will get shot down.
Hmm. :)
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: j0sephine
...at some point it just starts to make more sense to recycle these ships back into components, move the components using freighter with escorts and instas, and re-assemble back into dreadnaught in the other guy's backyard using their station
If you mean, doing it in their outpost .. well, yea. I'd say it's up to them to make sure you aren't allowed to do that, wouldn't you? ... and, of course, it behoves the station owners to make sure that new guy who only joined three days ago, doesn't have the right to set outpost access. Amazing how some corp's have such lax security systems, right? 
_______
I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: j0sephine
sure, might take longer, but there's hardly reason to hurry... especially when might provide more surprise element this way, than with a trail of those cynosural field lights all across the map... :s
Well now that gives me an idea. :) What about if you could set up cyno fields in a string that would pass the dreadnought jump along the entire way in one shot? Anyone paying attention to the map could see the route and more importantly the end sector.
Say the field doesn't establish itself between links for three minutes. So if you had a five jump route it would take you 15 minutes to establish the full route for the jump to take. For that time all the cyno fields are visible on the map, allowing a defender to take action. Basically, it would allow you to get into someone's backyard, but the longer the jump the greater the possibility one of your cyno guys will get shot down.
Hmm. :)
Well, yes, I thought that was quite obvious?
_____________________________
"There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" |
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Oveur
Well, yes, I thought that was quite obvious?
Seriously? Having a string of cyno fields lets you jump across all of them in a single jump?
(/me hasn't flown a dread, so /me wouldn't know for sure :) )
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Oveur
Well, yes, I thought that was quite obvious?
Seriously? Having a string of cyno fields lets you jump across all of them in a single jump?
(/me hasn't flown a dread, so /me wouldn't know for sure :) )
No, not physically in a single jump, but the outcome is the same.
_____________________________
"There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" |
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:36:00 -
[27]
Edited by: j0sephine on 18/08/2005 15:36:38
""
I second that o.o;
If it's actually possible to cross a series of cynosural fields in single jump then that's one hell of 'undocumented feature' o,o;;
edit: bah, nvm :p
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Purask
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Posted - 2005.08.18 15:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Oveur
The range is quite more than 2.5 ly, it can be increased with skills. The range is also a sphere.
Their limited range is indeed intentional and so is their consumption. A jumpdrive does not give you the ability to magically appear in the backyard of your opponent. Simple as that.
i dont know how this reply answers the inital question.
The problem is that some regions are connected over huge disctances, connections which dreads cant use and so they might be stuck in one 0.0 region or have to fly totaly overcomplicated routes.
Also i wouldnt see any problem with dreads magically appear in the backyard of the opponent cause a lonely dread is an easy target and prolly noone will move em around with support fleet.
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Faramir
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Posted - 2005.08.18 19:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Oveur
The range is quite more than 2.5 ly, it can be increased with skills. The range is also a sphere.
Their limited range is indeed intentional and so is their consumption. A jumpdrive does not give you the ability to magically appear in the backyard of your opponent. Simple as that.
The Dreadnought is a big and powerful weapon, did you really expect to be able to jump across half the galaxy without any skills?
Also, next patch features a range indicator on the map for jumpdrives, it'll make moving them a bit easier.
I understand that this is the way it is. I am just saying that if you are for example part of Stain/ASCN/5/RA you can't build your Dreadin Khanid/Aridia/Kor Azor, because the HUGE distances you need to cover are impossible (even with current skills trained up). And this goes for more places in Eve....
And if the 2,5 ly is base on a Dread and you need the Jumpdrive Calibration skill to make the bigger jumps... Then there is an awefull lot of "required" skilltraining to move around. (judging from both the omega jumpdistance calculator and the 2nd jumpdistance-tool in this thread).
So, I will ask again... Are these things intended to take lvl X of the adv jumpskill... and even then are some distances impossible to cross... or are these tools wrong and is there nothing to worry about?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:02:00 -
[30]
it makes it VERY easy to see the few places you can bring a dread into 0.0 and all of them are heavily populated heh. All we need to see is what features the carriers and titans will bring. Hopefully it'll allow them to "pull" ships along with them thru the jump.
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Neurotic Cat
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:08:00 -
[31]
I am cranky. The whole dreadnaught thing has been poorly documented and delivered.
TomB posts in the only docs we ever saw on Dreads: Quote:
Jumping into a solar systems that has 0.5 security or higher won't be possible.
Oveur contradicts that with: Quote:
Should be allowed in 0.3 and below, there are Starbases there to shoot
That's just lame. So much for the plan to use a .4 system to get to 0.0
and then this: Quote:
Also, next patch features a range indicator on the map for jumpdrives, it'll make moving them a bit easier.
FFS!! why wasn't this rolled out with the Dreadnaughts in the first place? Where was the QA team on that one? Going to introduce a unit of measure never seen in the game before and just 'forget' to provide a means to measure it?
I'm not asking for much here: just good documentation, good patch notes, and no stealth nerfs please.
-Cranky Cat
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Faramir
I understand that this is the way it is. I am just saying that if you are for example part of Stain/ASCN/5/RA you can't build your Dreadin Khanid/Aridia/Kor Azor, because the HUGE distances you need to cover are impossible
Isn't the point that to get to certain places, from certain places, will take multiple jumps along an indirect route?
I.e Paragon Souls over to Period Basis. If its not possible in one jump you just need to go up and around right?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Faramir
I understand that this is the way it is. I am just saying that if you are for example part of Stain/ASCN/5/RA you can't build your Dreadin Khanid/Aridia/Kor Azor, because the HUGE distances you need to cover are impossible
Isn't the point that to get to certain places, from certain places, will take multiple jumps along an indirect route?
I.e Paragon Souls over to Period Basis. If its not possible in one jump you just need to go up and around right?
I think some justs are just too long to be made ever
Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now? |
Zandramus
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:17:00 -
[34]
CCP seem to lack the ability to implement anything new and doccument it properly.
I also remember Dreads supposed to be allowed in anything below .5 now its .3 and below this eliminates a whole lot of space that they were supposed to be in already.
Look at the total lack of doccumentation on exactly how sovreignity works as an example no one can figure out if its working or its bugged atm.
An explanation on the exact abilities of the outposts would have been nice before people spent billions on them expecting them to be the same as player conq stations as previously expressed by the devs.
A little explanation on how its supposed to work when its released istead of all the secrets and lies from CCP would make this a more enjoyable gaming experience.
As it is, if this keeps up I can only see it leading to dissapointment after dissapointment and people leaving the game as new and undoccumented changes are continually made to the game.
Zandramus
Passes Now Available for 0.0 access
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:20:00 -
[35]
a little documention on how new things work would be really good
alone the new EW, there should be a FAQ explaining a lot of things
Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now? |
Neurotic Cat
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Posted - 2005.08.18 20:41:00 -
[36]
I think all software developers are alergic to documentation.
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Faramir
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Posted - 2005.08.18 22:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Neurotic Cat
I think all software developers are alergic to documentation.
hence I'm posting 
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StiZum Hilidii
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Posted - 2005.08.18 22:34:00 -
[38]
have to agree with fara here. we all knew this wouldnt be easy using dreads and didnt expect them to be a walk in the park but common guys.
be serious
increase this jump range by alot and stop messing us about,
do you want the things actually used or sat in a hanger cos it would take 3 days to move it
STAN
FACTA NON VERBA
BRING BACK MMO CASINO |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.18 22:36:00 -
[39]
I think the last thing a coder wants to do after debugging stuff and making sure it all works is to type up documentation. Although if they code to spec... so the documentation should "theoretically" be done before they even start coding :P
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Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.08.18 23:06:00 -
[40]
Originally by: SengH
I think the last thing a coder wants to do after debugging stuff and making sure it all works is to type up documentation. Although if they code to spec... so the documentation should "theoretically" be done before they even start coding :P
if said coder wants a job he has to learn how to write code with documentation so other coders can read it aswell
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.18 23:14:00 -
[41]
documenting code is not the same as documenting what the overall effect should be in readable form to the players.
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.19 07:39:00 -
[42]
I posted, I went to bed, I woke up again.
Still no confirmation on Dreadnaught fuel consumption.
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
Elissen
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Posted - 2005.08.19 08:30:00 -
[43]
AFAIK dreads aren't available for normal players on Sisi. If they are we can figure out how things work on our own. Like is .4 allowed or not? Or if you can build it in .5 and then jump to (aparently) into a .3 and never return?
Or how much fuel is really needed. Or if the Jump Drive Calibration skill even works.
A dread is a little bit too expensive to experiment with this on TQ
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.08.19 08:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
I posted, I went to bed, I woke up again.
Still no confirmation on Dreadnaught fuel consumption.
I gotta agree. It's been like this every time something new comes out. Until patch day, AFAIK, not a sould knew what the hell the BPOs were even going to cost! Why can't CCP put together a short fact sheet at least with something as basic as pricing information?
As for Dreads, I agree with everyone else in this thread who has said it's a poor showing. When something this huge comes out, there should be some kind of detailed explaination of the things instead of the trial and error method. Just look at the guys in the other thread and thier headaches with outposts... 
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We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem! |
countx
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Posted - 2005.08.19 09:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: countx on 19/08/2005 09:01:27
Its true that documentation has been ****ty but hay, its not a perfect world,
but I like the requirements for dreads I mean, if u could just right click and jump to system wouldnt that be just boring?
it makes the game a challenge, also it assures not every jo blow flys his dread around pawning evertyhing..
plus I recon they arnt tuff enough, look at stats? meh, not that impressive.
little off topic.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.08.19 10:41:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Seleene
Originally by: FireFoxx80
I posted, I went to bed, I woke up again.
Still no confirmation on Dreadnaught fuel consumption.
I gotta agree. It's been like this every time something new comes out. Until patch day, AFAIK, not a sould knew what the hell the BPOs were even going to cost! Why can't CCP put together a short fact sheet at least with something as basic as pricing information?
As for Dreads, I agree with everyone else in this thread who has said it's a poor showing. When something this huge comes out, there should be some kind of detailed explaination of the things instead of the trial and error method. Just look at the guys in the other thread and thier headaches with outposts...
yeah, finding out things on your own isnt always that funny.
Like that probe scanning, the only documation I got was from other players.
Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now? |
CptDelta
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Posted - 2005.08.19 10:50:00 -
[47]
would be nice if we can get a reference jump yust the exacly range between two system
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Rasitiln
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Posted - 2005.08.19 11:11:00 -
[48]
I wonder if in combat it would be possible to setup "decoy" jump feilds. sure would make it a intresting game....."where is that dread going!!!" "We dont know sir there is jump feilds in every system!!one11one!!!"
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F'nog
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Posted - 2005.08.19 15:16:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Rasitiln
I wonder if in combat it would be possible to setup "decoy" jump feilds. sure would make it a intresting game....."where is that dread going!!!" "We dont know sir there is jump feilds in every system!!one11one!!!"
AFAIK it is. Just have a bunch of people equip Cynosural field generators on their ships and send them off to wherever you want to distract the opposition. Then have them turn them on. They don't even have to be in the same gang since people have been testing fields for several weeks before any Dreads were actually built.
Originally by: Morela
"hey! I'm gonna go attack the north! Afk till tuesday!"
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Digitix
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Posted - 2005.08.19 21:58:00 -
[50]
what I would like to know here, FOR SURE PLEASE, is about manufacturing locations... what is the highest sec for a system where a dread can be built and will be able to jump out? and how close indeed has the system to be to unsecure space? and does the target system have to be 0.3 and lower, or will 0.4 do as well? I don't think anything of this has been documented at all... if so, please tell me, cause I want to make sure that we sell ships that can be used by our customers.... 
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NeoThermic
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Posted - 2005.08.20 23:40:00 -
[51]
I do know this much - it can be built ANYWHERE, and it can jump out of ANYWHERE as long as it has a (to be sure) 0.3 system IN RANGE, to JUMP TO.
Dreads are welcome in yulai, but there is no way out.
___________________________
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Ticondrius
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Posted - 2005.08.20 23:46:00 -
[52]
If you look at the map for a bit, you'll see that any dread in the southeast from the great wildlands to paragon soul will be unable to go anywhere but to regions in that area. There is no 0.3 shortcut out of it and into other areas, like Querious or Period Basis. Same goes for Dreads built anywhere else...they are stuck outside of the southeast.
"If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault." |
NeoThermic
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Posted - 2005.08.21 15:17:00 -
[53]
You must remember that dread don't have to follow gates, they can effectively "sidestep" systems, "cutting corners" might be another way of saying it.
Example -
Point A is 100 jumps from point B. There is NO WAY AROUND using gates unless you take this route. However, due to some mad space U-Turn, Point A is, in reality only 2LY from point B. The dread can hop sideways across, effectively doing 100 jumps in one.
Don't follow gate routes between systems, dread don't need to use those :)
___________________________
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Faramir
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Posted - 2005.08.21 15:59:00 -
[54]
Originally by: NeoThermic
You must remember that dread don't have to follow gates, they can effectively "sidestep" systems, "cutting corners" might be another way of saying it.
Example -
Point A is 100 jumps from point B. There is NO WAY AROUND using gates unless you take this route. However, due to some mad space U-Turn, Point A is, in reality only 2LY from point B. The dread can hop sideways across, effectively doing 100 jumps in one.
Don't follow gate routes between systems, dread don't need to use those :)
I think that if you would check the map... it will be funny to see all the places normal gates lead to... and dreads won't be able to jump...
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Orroit Arkid
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Posted - 2005.08.21 17:19:00 -
[55]
Maybe they can jump the gap into Jove space then?
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.21 17:28:00 -
[56]
I really really need to read up on POS, Outpost, cynosaurul fields, and Dreads 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.21 17:29:00 -
[57]
Originally by: StiZum Hilidii
have to agree with fara here. we all knew this wouldnt be easy using dreads and didnt expect them to be a walk in the park but common guys.
be serious
increase this jump range by alot and stop messing us about,
do you want the things actually used or sat in a hanger cos it would take 3 days to move it
It makes sense that a Dread requires extreme logistics.
After all, the structures they're meant to destroy are hardly a walk in the park to construct either.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Teela Belwynn
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Posted - 2005.08.21 22:57:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Orroit Arkid
Maybe they can jump the gap into Jove space then?
nope, still needs a beacon to jump too.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2005.08.21 23:58:00 -
[59]
The Amarr Empire is so friggin big with no 0.3s in between that it will be impossible to get from one low-sec side of the Empire to the other at all.
Make them be able to jump into 0.4 as promised, puhlease!
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PiniclePanda
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Posted - 2005.08.22 00:44:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Neurotic Cat
TomB posts in the only docs we ever saw on Dreads: Quote:
Jumping into a solar systems that has 0.5 security or higher won't be possible.
Oveur contradicts that with: Quote:
Should be allowed in 0.3 and below, there are Starbases there to shoot
That's not a contradiction. I don't see in TomB's quote saying dreads would be allowed into 0.4 - just confirmation that they won't be able to get into 0.5 and higher.
Quote:
and then this: Quote:
Also, next patch features a range indicator on the map for jumpdrives, it'll make moving them a bit easier.
FFS!! why wasn't this rolled out with the Dreadnaughts in the first place?
Most likely to allow players to get a head start on training/building them. No sense in delaying the release of dreads and related tools until the UI features are in place. I fail to see the problem.
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2005.08.22 03:02:00 -
[61]
Damm...i forgot what i was going to write
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Lord Artemis
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Posted - 2005.08.22 06:50:00 -
[62]
imagine the low sec empire pirate gankers sitting on a jumpgate with a smart bomb or 30+ drones i dont think the best insta set will help you
___________________________
Aegis Militia Conclave official representative |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.08.22 07:30:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Lord Artemis
imagine the low sec empire pirate gankers sitting on a jumpgate with a smart bomb or 30+ drones i dont think the best insta set will help you
The Smartbomb will have to reach further than 5 km, as it cannot be activated within 5 km of a large object such as a gate. The Drones will also need an attack command, and that means a lock from the Dread. You'll be safe from that with marginally good instas. Only battleships will be large enough to get locked before entering warp or traveling 5-ish km.
Rather imagine the dread pirate sitting 150km from the gate, remote boosted, and with short range ammo loaded (NOT in siege mode).
--
You don't need to know a language well to make a proper sentence, many grammar rules are universal. Do make an effort |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.08.24 12:44:00 -
[64]
Found the fuel consumption thingy, from the eve data export:
jumpDriveConsumptionAmount=Number of units it consumes per light year.
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
King Dave
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Posted - 2005.08.24 22:26:00 -
[65]
lame empire sniping tactics, i dont think a dreadnaught will quite be used for that, people that do that wont have the required skill to do it, also they wont have to money.. They also don't deserve it due to lame tactics..
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.24 22:45:00 -
[66]
random idea but if you had a dread sitting in siege mode at the gate... wouldnt it bounce everyone using instas to the gate off?
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Cookie
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Posted - 2005.08.24 23:03:00 -
[67]
on a totally unrelated note
whats the skillrequirements for those support cruiser thingies and do they actually work ??
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Karessa Sevaara
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Posted - 2005.08.24 23:17:00 -
[68]
Originally by: SengH
random idea but if you had a dread sitting in siege mode at the gate... wouldnt it bounce everyone using instas to the gate off?
Great idea! Titans would be even better.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.08.25 00:29:00 -
[69]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 25/08/2005 00:31:18
I believe we are going to see Dreads in the future escorted by two groups. One to scout ahead, secure the jump-in point, and create a cynosural field. The other to refuel, resupply, and guard the Dread whilst it prepares to make it's next jump.
Now moving 5 Dreads, as it is rumoured that BoB has. They'll see you coming from 3 regions away.
For first read.. yep, it looks like it is a pain in the ass to move dreads around.. but when you read it second time, you discover that THIS is the GAME itself
What you described here is realy similar to some large RL war logistics.
Support team, Scout Team, Deffens Team ect.. like when real armys move their long range big guns around in enemy territory...
I like it .
yep. Avon & you got it right! this is what we won't too .. we can't have these dreads having the run of the place too much. i just wonder out there how many corps can handle the defance of these new corp dreads & soon titans moving around. its one thing too get the thing biuld but another too keep moving around safly.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.08.25 00:57:00 -
[70]
Based on the contents of mapData.csv and using the following values:
1AU = 149597870691m
1LY = 9460730472580800m
I can say that the AUs displayed in game are a 100% match to RL AUs and the values calculated at Omega Enterprises'
EVE Distance Calculation page are 100% spot on.
Originally by: Oveur
The range is quite more than 2.5 ly, it can be increased with skills. The range is also a sphere.
So considering that the item database says "maximum jump range 2,5 ly" (example: Naglfar), and the skill description of Jump Drive Calibration Quote "25% increase in maximum jump range per skill level.", then the max jump range of a Dreadnought is 5,63 ly.
I can only assume that Omega Enterprises did the calculations with the same precision on their EVE Jump Drive Tool, I have no reason to believe otherwise, I can only say it sucks that 0.4 systems are not valid for jumping into.
Originally by: Oveur
The Dreadnought is a big and powerful weapon, did you really expect to be able to jump across half the galaxy without any skills?
No, but I expected that they could get to any 0.0 system regardless of it's current 0.0 system.
There is no way that you can get to every 0.0 system in a dreadnought, you are either stuck at the top or stuck at the bottom. Should alliances have to have "2 sets" of these ships to war in both "hemispheres" because 0.4 space is not allowed to be used as a jump system ?
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.25 01:21:00 -
[71]
im sure CCP will monitor the use of dreads in combat and make changes as required - remember its early days but they have data outputs for every inaction game in eve - market prices combat logs the works - they can set up their anaylytical software to run over dread battles and determine enhancements or nerfs or changes etc as time progresses - there are a lot of minor hotfixes that slightly alter stats etc all the time.
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Lowa
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Posted - 2005.08.25 16:37:00 -
[72]
Sounds like the first step will be two things:
1. A logistical nightmare as one traverse space with the dread
and the support crafts on its tail and ahead as scouts and jump points.
or
2. You plan to attack 0.0 alliance A. You are currently in Alliance B
that is on the other side of Empire. You cant jump the dread to A directly
and cant be arsed to do the impossible logistics.
What you will have to do is move the materials to the closest system
with a way into Alliance A, build your dread there, jump and commense firing.
Once your are done killing all POS and such your dread has no use and may be recycled.
Unless you want to move into your conquered region for good. Then use is as defence.
I can see frustration over the massive amount of dedication both of these options
will need but then again, IMHO this things are not supposed to be Plug-n-play.
However, the documentation on all things regardning Dreads and fuel and jumping
and so on would REALLY need a good overhaul. Perhaps even a instruction video. 
Cheers,
LOWA
Contact Mercenary Coalition |
HeadWar
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Posted - 2005.08.26 01:21:00 -
[73]
Edited by: HeadWar on 26/08/2005 01:21:35
Carrying dismantled siege engines to the place where they were needed, or just building them from locally available materials, was more or less common practice during medieval times.
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Lowa
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Posted - 2005.08.26 09:34:00 -
[74]
Originally by: HeadWar
Edited by: HeadWar on 26/08/2005 01:21:35
Carrying dismantled siege engines to the place where they were needed, or just building them from locally available materials, was more or less common practice during medieval times.
EVE goes "I'ma get medieval on your ass! With a pair of pliers and a blow torch!"
/LOWA
Contact Mercenary Coalition |
Faramir
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Posted - 2005.08.26 20:21:00 -
[75]
Originally by: HeadWar
Edited by: HeadWar on 26/08/2005 01:21:35
Carrying dismantled siege engines to the place where they were needed, or just building them from locally available materials, was more or less common practice during medieval times.
So... we're supposed to shoot with dead cows, corpses that died of a plague and big pieces of stone?
Riiighhttt.....
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Tiberius Caesar
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Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Faramir
Originally by: HeadWar
Edited by: HeadWar on 26/08/2005 01:21:35
Carrying dismantled siege engines to the place where they were needed, or just building them from locally available materials, was more or less common practice during medieval times.
So... we're supposed to shoot with dead cows, corpses that died of a plague and big pieces of stone?
Riiighhttt.....
If you're minmatar, yes.
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Wraeththu
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Posted - 2005.08.26 23:38:00 -
[77]
As a side POI, The Eve systems are extradimensional compared to the actual system. If you remember back when you could get F11 bookmarks, people would be warping pretty far out (like with the old indies who had cruiser cap, but frigate warp costs). I remember 2 or 3 indy warps outside of Luminaire and I was deep in Placid.
Instead of putting in (yet another) red sphere of doom on the map, how about a mouse ruler for measuring LY between two points?
That way you can plan things out without having to have a ship in that exact spot to see where the bubble is going to be at.
I'd like to think dreads would require (and benefit from) some actual planning.
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