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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
3405
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
36
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aethlyn wrote:Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)
Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players.
We are not using Pando Media Booster or anything like that. The launcher is using it's own mechanism, which is based on a publically available torrent client library. By default it will use HTTP as transport as well as BitTorrent, so you should be all good even when you cannot use any P2P traffic. This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs. Senior Programmer Team Avatar |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
37
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Turelus wrote:Will you still offer a non bit-torrent option for people who's ISP's cap all P2P transfers?
Yes, HTTP will still be utilized. Senior Programmer Team Avatar |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
37
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Just a random idea, but why should upload stop the exact moment that a particular customer's Launcher has finished downloading? Why not continue uploading for a small period of time after that, as an automated setting, such as 90 minutes? Or if not as an automated setting, then as a user-configurable option?
I'd not want to have upload available all the time, but something like the duration of my download plus X minutes would be an option that I'd be happy to utilize.
By default you only upload while you download, at a fairly low rate. If you want you can check an option that makes you seed for longer. Good idea about maybe adding a timer to this in the future, but for right now we'd like to see this go out and work in the wild before making further changes. Senior Programmer Team Avatar |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
38
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tribal Solidarity wrote:So, while I agree with the issues of using HTTP/1.1, I disagree with the torrent protocol usage.
Tons of ISPs in the UK restrict torrent client usage, as do universities and businesses, making it much harder for people to patch.
And how long will you keep seeding the data on your servers before requiring people to download a full client?
Also, I personally have downloaded patches directly from the server and applied them after download, outside of waiting for the patcher to complete. I haven't done this for a while so it may not be possible but it was a great way of bypassing your servers being swamped on patch day by using mirrors.
And finally, can you guarantee the same throughput/speed of using bittorrent over HTTP/1.1? Or are we looking at ridiculously slow speeds?
Let me start by addressing your previous question:
Bittorrent over HTTP/1.1 should have the same speed as normal HTTP transfers because it is actually "just" the range-header implementation. Bittorrent over HTTP/1.0 depends a little bit on the webserver implementation because there the range-header is emualted using the querystring and the server then has to figure out which parts to send using a custom request handler. But for most real world scenarios I would not expect a big difference in throughput, if any.
The other part is probably more interesting and I should probably have addressed this in the blog itself: You are no longer downloading an installer for the EVE client or it's updates. Instead when you start the launcher, the launcher checks if there was a new EVE version released and if so, it downloads the files it needs to acquire. Since we will always keep the most recent EVE version on the CDN this will make sure that your installation is always up to date. The times of downloading a full client should be gone unless you are installing EVE for the first time, in which case the download is actually a lot bigger than before. But we are looking into utilizing compression methods there, and in the longer run plan on organizing the client resources in a way that a new player can go and use the character creator while the game is still installing all the space assets. Every update in itself kind of works like the repair tool used to work (which is now simply forcing a re-check of your installation against the information found in the torrent file), e.g. the launcher figures out which files in your installation need an update and only downloads these files then. In the long run this should save on traffic required for updates as well because there is no longer any need for the whole overhead of having an installer executable. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
3407
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
I put a link to this dev blog in the launcher so there is now a launcher dev blog...in the launcher. I'll just leave you with this bit of knowledge.
CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
38
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Aethlyn wrote:SamuraiJack wrote:That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client. this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7. maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol.
You are correct, what we wanted is a more reliable and flexible protocol. Of course, if people want to share as well then that would be great. But we intentionally do not make it a requirement; once you are done downloading you are not seeding unless you want to. And if you are seeding, then always at a speed that you control. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
40
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Posted - 2013.03.11 17:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:And what about Launcher 1.4x with integrated login/advanced client settings? This has been used on Serenity for some time but there is no plans to use it on TQ anymore?
This is currently on ice until we are done with more pressing aspects. Eventually we would like to see the launcher managing all your EVE installations and no longer have the "one launcher per installation" as it currently is the case.
Doublewhopper wrote:Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.
The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.
The internal tests on Mac looked good so far, but again, this is one reason why we are going to run a test in the wild soon. Wine/Linux are not on the list of officially support platforms, so I cannot say anything about whether it works there or not. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
181
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Posted - 2013.03.11 17:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
On this note:
Doublewhopper wrote:Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.
The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.
I've been running a beta test on the Mac subforum for the last 3 months, testing some of these changes. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1870
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Posted - 2013.03.11 22:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Team Special Circumstances eh ? Culture reference I hope! ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Surprised how self-critical you are of the launcher, after the botched first release I really liked it, never had a failed patch since und patching runs much smoother. Guess I was lucky with my stable connection.
Torrent, well why not. Although I somehow suspect that saving bandwidth may be a factor for CCP here ^^ It's a case of looking at the numbers of people who are unable to patch. The single point of failure when using only HTTP/1.1 has proven to be a weakness and we want to fix that for those users who are only able to patch by downloading the full installer. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:But obviously metrics show something disturbing enough to be worth fixing because metrics are never wrong. Funny they don't show how much of needless hassle is switching between toons on same account, maybe then launcher would gain magic powers to handle that too. I understand your point, but making changes of that magnitude to the EVE client isn't in the purview of my team Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
The Groundskeeper wrote:Verite Rendition wrote:I apologize if this has already been posted, but I had a thought.
CCP will be in control of everything, including the tracker, right? So why don't you modify your tracker to scrub all the clients from the peer list, leaving only the CCP CDNs?
This means no two clients would be able to connect to each other, and consequently clients could only connect to the CCP BitTorrent seeds and the web seeds. They want to use your bandwidth, saving them money, obviously. The goal of going with BitTorrent is two fold: firstly to use a reliable and proven network transfer protocol that has more than one method for downloading data, rather than our own, custom implementation with a single point of failure, and secondly to improve the overall patching experience; the torrents being used will be backed by our CDN (as is already the case) to ensure a given quality of service, and the BitTorrent swarm is then used as an additional method for downloading. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:2) I have my default browser set to Firefox. I also have Chrome. Guess what happens every time I press a link on the launcher? A damn Internet Explorer is started. Please either implement: - a right click menu where I can choose which browser to use to look at the links - a right click menu where I can at least copy the URL on the clipboard so I can start the browser myself. - a mouseover event that shows the pointed to URL on some status bar or a tooltip. - or maybe, just do it right and make so that the launcher uses the brower I have actually chosen as system default. The EVE Launcher uses a module in the Python standard library called webbrowser, to find and open the relevant browser. It does this by examining your computers system path for known browsers, and failing that simply uses IE. I would imagine that it's unable to find your chosen browser.
The irony is that we used to simply delegate the call to the operating system, by using the OS to open the associated application for the URL (ie: equivalent to going Windows -> Run -> http://eveonline.com) but we removed it in favour of the webbrowser module, for precisely the reason you list; in some cases we were incorrectly loading using IE rather than the users installed (and preferred) browser. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:my router crashes if I have more than 10-12 active connections, so I hope we will be able to limit the connection count or force HTTP (as other games allow the user to do).
There will be an option to limit the amount of total connections, as well as the number of upload slots you want to provide.
Cpt Underpants wrote:Phext wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges. Not easy to bypass, the way a lot of the filtering boxes work is they look at the SSL certificate used to encrypt the data. Certain data patterns are flagged as potentially P2P, it is analysed centrally and if found to be P2P the certificate itself is then used to confirm P2P and implement throttling. Next comes the issue of carrier-grade NAT which can further limit the ability to use P2P. Also in Australia most ISPs count both uploads and downloads against our data caps. We pay for Eve Online, why should we pay more by potentially doubling the amount of data used for each update? A lot of countries have data caps, a lot of internet providers have detection for P2P to throttle or block. Next we have the potential issues with the new USA "six-strikes" P2P policies and the equivilents in other countries. There is talk it detects all P2P traffic, not just illicit ones. Even with white-listing certain things, many people may receive warnings before the Eve launcher is exempted. Will P2P cost CCP less than a network of content nodes? I think it will. As long as the number of CDNs is adequate and I can turn off torrenting before anything starts, I'll be happy.
Again, to get experience with ISP throttling or even blocking then that is why we would like to see this out in the wild for testing. So we are not going to role this out for TQ without getting some experience and a chance to improve parts of it first. And also, again, HTTP is still being utilized, so in worst case you will still have that. Also, the port range to use can be changed in the options.
Another point worth mentioning probably is that here in Iceland people usually have data caps as well, however, they only count for oversea traffic: Everything that is hosted within Iceland has unlimited bandwidth, but everyone you download from abroad eats up your monthly allowance. The usage of bittorrent is supposed to help with this eventually, because you can setup your regional network that would avoid overseas traffic. That being said, we have no knowledge on how every single ISP around the world is going to handle it so any information is welcome.
With regards to six-strikes: We'll look into this and see if there is anything more we can do about it except for disabling non-HTTP transfers. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Whatever happened with the idea of having a tabbed client for multi client users? No idea. It wouldn't be something my team would be looking at, since we're focused on the EVE Launcher and associated tech. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kiran wrote:Not had a lot to do with Bit Torrents, but if we are sharing information with other Eve users wont this open our PC's up to viruses that can be installed within the Eve file system ?
So you therefore share a virus over the net to all other Eve users through the patching ?
No, it won't. The EVE launcher retrieves the torrent meta information via secure mechanism, and the torrent protocol makes sure that all the data it receives has the expected checksums from said meta information. As long as you use the launcher and not any external torrent client to download the EVE client you should be all good. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.03.12 14:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Scaugh wrote:is there any information on what additional/extra bandwith useage we should be expecting with these changes. I'm on a fairly limited data package as it is, with large charges for execeeding it.
I know any answer would probably be dependant on hours played but surely with a change like this you have some sort of calcuations done (even if its on your ownserver side).
So, because of the way we are changing things the amount of data downloaded for a fresh client install is round about 11 GB. This is roughly double the amount of the current installer, but this should only be happening if you have absolutely no files installed, or everything in your installation is corrupted our outdated. Since you already have an installation then this case should be of no immediate concern to you.
From measuring the differences of 13 EVE client updates we ended up with the smallest patch size being about 9 MB and the largest 2.4 GB. The extra bandwidth on your end that might be opposed by seeding files depends upon the speed at which you seed. A simple calculation: If you upload at 1/10th of the speed you are downloading, and the client update is 2 GB, then the extra bandwidth is pretty much 200 MB.
Hope this helps. :-) Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.03.12 14:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Chrono Guardia wrote:I think the new download method sounds interesting, but I have a slightly off topic thought. I would like to suggest that you also might add a menu into the launcher that allows for the user to change the graphics options out of game, specifically whether or not the game runs in full screen, fixed window, or windowed mode. This would have helped me a lot in the past when the switchable graphics on my laptop caused eve to crash my computer every time I tried to start eve, because I could of just changed the graphics options instead of temporarily disabling one of my graphics cards.
Chrono
We are looking into this but there are some things to be considered to get this working properly on the Mac. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
60
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Posted - 2013.03.12 17:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Luna Moonraker wrote: [...] There is some concern with the Mac EVE Online client which does seem to have an issue running with torrents running in the background and if this same traffic causes similar hanging issues then it means that specific issue needs addressing with even more urgency. I guess we will see from Sisi testing.
And any potential issues arising from the permissions/ user rights for additional file/ folder data checking that will be required. Not all users will have Admin privileges. [...]
The Mac issue reported in this thread cannot be caused by torrents because there is no launcher available that uses torrents at the moment. While there might be issues then they are unlikely to be the same problem as what was reported. Though we are of course aware that the Mac client does behave a bit special at times.
About the admin privileges: We actually are looking into ways of mitigating these by eventually moving the installation of the EVE client into a more appropriate place, fitting with the various operating system guidelines on where this data should live, mostly because that will also take away some pain on our end when it comes to maintaining the update mechanism. Requiring admin privileges is really a bad habit but was not really frowned upon in the Windows world until Microsoft introduced UAC; and as we all know it takes a while for some things to get adopted properly. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
66
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Posted - 2013.03.13 10:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Charadrass wrote:Quote:In short and among other things we are working on improving the self-update mechanism for the EVE Launcher, as well as its ability to download and update your EVE client, integration with digital distribution platforms like Steam and support for multi-box and test-client installations. i'm asking what the Support for multi-box is. because i'm using isboxer and it would be awesome to get more Options.
What we would like to offer is two fold, and could be along these lines: 1) You just have some UI in the launcher where you see the different servers with their versions available and you can get these versions installed parallel to each other. 2) Be able to run the multiple client instances from the same installation.
Vortos Yvormes wrote:I've only had a few issues with the launcher, but still been able to run the Eve client manually for a time. Downloading the entire (gargantuan) client is a pain, and a poor solution to a simple problem. I don't see why a separate (smaller) launcher download isn't (or perhaps can't be?) available, especially for people who are savvy enough to unpack a zip file and over-write the requisite directory.
This is actually something we plan have happening with this as well. You download a small launcher, which then goes and downloads the big client.
Sodohm wrote:My only wish is that wont break playing on linux as much as when the launcher was created (which was a shitstorm for us)...
Rammix wrote:CCP Guard wrote:CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! Just don't break its usability with WINE (on linux). Please. Would be very awful if linux users had to reboot to windows just to update EVE. Please, keep this in mind, if possible.
No promises because Wine/Linux is not officially supported by us. However, nothing stops you from using the test version we are going to roll out soon and then providing feedback which we may or may not be able to react to. ;-)
m0v3rs wrote:Please add the in-game time to the launcher.
That should be easy, added to our backlog.
mybeter wrote:@ CCP Aporia Are you thinking about an option to backup the Eve client? Things like the folders where the bookmarks are in, overview settings, graphic settings, window positions and such? That would be very nice!
Not directly, no. We do however have ideas for improving the cache and settings storage used by the EVE client. More details will follow as they become available. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
184
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Posted - 2013.03.13 11:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because". Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
184
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Posted - 2013.03.14 11:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
We're not using Pando Media Booster. I hope that clears things up Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
68
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Posted - 2013.03.14 13:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Valkyrs wrote:I'm good with it, would you be encrypting the traffic to try to avoid the bittorrent traffic shaping?
Also it would be nice if you guys could provide an RSS feed for updates, so I can get the updates from my native BitTorrent client and the download started right away, before I log in to EVE and rather than having another daemon running for updates.
You won't be able to use a native bittorrent client. While we do use the BitTorrent protocol then we do some post-processing of the files we receive in order to make them usable by the EVE client. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
185
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Posted - 2013.03.18 10:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.
Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.
Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.
THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.
Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful. I understand your point, but I have to point out that the code part that you keep referring to is actually very small, in the region of ~6MB for the code we've written. There are of course other code resources but the majority of the client is art and audio assets (approximately 11GB) Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
185
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Posted - 2013.03.18 10:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is actually a very good point. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
185
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Posted - 2013.03.18 11:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Haven't seen a single point as to why this should be enabled by default.
Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. If it's for cutting costs on the expense of bandwidth I paid for personal use, then it's a simple no.
The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. All the technical aspect of the new launcher can be achieved without using P2P. P2P is just convenient as it allows to shave some costs of publishing the end product. There are a few reasons why I wanted to go with Bittorrent, and none of them revolve around cost.
To explain, every time we patch, there are many people who exist behind restrictive proxies or bad networks that simply can't update their EVE client, with the only recourse being to fully re-download the entire thing. You can see what I mean if you take a spin through some of the other forums, for example here (21 pages), here (16 pages) and here (5 pages).
We have also seen people in various parts of the world getting low transfer rates, which compound the problem for a large client download. By implementing BitTorrent we can work towards solving both of these problems by using a protocol and framework that has been designed and tested for distributing large amounts of data. We no longer have to maintain a custom library, and can benefit from the wisdom of others, whilst also reducing my own burden of having to provide patches as a fallback for people (which is an imperfect solution as it is).
We also have a nice technical benefit of being able to phase out the Repair Tool and SisiLauncher, further reducing our technical burden, since the single EVE Launcher will be able to service all these roles.
I understand that you don't want to help out other players, or open yourself up to any perceived vulnerabilities, but we're trying to help all the players, including the large quantity of people who simply don't read or comment on these forums. Those saying that "this will do nothing for me" are the lucky ones who are currently in a position where everything works as intended. I wish all our customers would be there, but unfortunately they aren't, and we have to provide a solution to help them play the game. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
194
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Posted - 2013.03.19 08:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"". And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
194
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Posted - 2013.03.19 08:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
coolzero wrote:another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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