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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:48:00 -
[1]
From what I've seen/heard about, just some thoughs/opinions.
Amarr:
Zealot: overpowered as most will agree. Switch its RoF bonus to something else and give it a 5th turret. Damage will be the same but it will now have a harder time fitting wise. Fitting a plate and the rest full gank is ridiculous.
Sac: I don't care if its khanid. Its the uber armor tank. Reduce shields by 1/4. Increase armor by the same amount. Its pathetic that an unplated sac can die in a volley or 2 to a gankpest.
Minmatar:
Vagabond: most balanced HAC. No boosts or nerfs needed.
Muninn: Remove one high slot. Add one low slot. The extra highs are worthless considering you need a RCU II just to fit 5 720 IIs, and then if you put on a ab II you have enough grid for only 2 standard launchers and 0 tank. Basically it doesnt have the grid to support 2 more highslots if fit for longrange, which its supposed to be. Alternatively: Leave current highslots, switch tracking bonus for a 2nd damage bonus. This would basically make it the minmatar deimos, though with much less damage (electrons = 425s, deimos has more drones), and no mwd bonus. Might be overpowered at long range, so drop grid by 50 to compensate.
Caldari:
Eagle: Give it a 5th gun. The only other gunboat HAC with only 4 guns has 2 damage bonuses while a eagle has only 1, not to mention that lasers > rails in damage anyways. No grid increases, to fit 5 of the biggest gun every HAC should really need some fitting mods.
Cerb: Kinetic damage bonus is stupid. Make it a flat 5% damage bonus to missile damage.
Gallante:
Ishtar: Balanced, no changes needed.
Deimos: Needs a slight mass reduction and/or a slight speed increase. Mainly balanced.
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Douglas McCracken
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:55:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: DrunkenOne
From what I've seen/heard about, just some thoughs/opinions.
Amarr:
Zealot: overpowered as most will agree. Switch its RoF bonus to something else and give it a 5th turret. Damage will be the same but it will now have a harder time fitting wise. Fitting a plate and the rest full gank is ridiculous.
zealot is fine, its the plates that need some consideration. How about a mass increase akin to how AB's work. I think the bonuses are fine.
Quote:
Sac: I don't care if its khanid. Its the uber armor tank. Reduce shields by 1/4. Increase armor by the same amount. Its pathetic that an unplated sac can die in a volley or 2 to a gankpest.
hmm probibly right thats where plates come in handy
Quote:
Minmatar
never flown minmater ships so cant comment, i dont want to be seen in a ship strung together with sellotape
Quote:
Eagle: Give it a 5th gun. The only other gunboat HAC with only 4 guns has 2 damage bonuses while a eagle has only 1, not to mention that lasers > rails in damage anyways. No grid increases, to fit 5 of the biggest gun every HAC should really need some fitting mods.
i think it just needs a damage mod instead of something else
Quote:
Cerb: Kinetic damage bonus is stupid. Make it a flat 5% damage bonus to missile damage.
personally i think the flight time bonus is a little silly. 5% rof mabye
Quote:
Gallante:
Ishtar: Balanced, no changes needed.
yeah this is ok
Quote:
Deimos: Needs a slight mass reduction and/or a slight speed increase. Mainly balanced.
lots of power hear, but i do agree it should be faster than the Zealot. thats why the Zealot has a range bonus.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:55:00 -
[3]
Disagree with Zealot, and not just because it's on my sig; it has many weaknesses someone who doesn't pilot them extensively simply won't understand. It has an easy time of fitting because it has less weapons and special stuff than any other HAC. Plus there's the EM/thermal only damage output, and the fact that it needs like, five heatsinks to compete in damage with the Deimos at short ranges, and the Deimos only has one or two dmg mods.
I can't believe I just read a post asking for Zealots to be nerfed and Deimos to be boosted, tbh.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:58:00 -
[4]
If you think the sac needs a boost, you're high. They allready uber tank-ships, a few specific situations where someone sets up a ambush to kill them shouldn't make you rebalance them. Incidently, one of the issues is the bug which means that if you have any shields, the entire hit does damage at shield resistances.
As for the Munnin, think outside the box a little :)
And if you remove the tracking bonus, you make them FAR too vulnrable to trench run disease.
Eagle can snipe ceptors at 150km, and you want to BOOST it?
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Disagree with Zealot, and not just because it's on my sig; it has many weaknesses someone who doesn't pilot them extensively simply won't understand. It has an easy time of fitting because it has less weapons and special stuff than any other HAC. Plus there's the EM/thermal only damage output, and the fact that it needs like, five heatsinks to compete in damage with the Deimos at short ranges, and the Deimos only has one or two dmg mods.
I can't believe I just read a post asking for Zealots to be nerfed and Deimos to be boosted, tbh.
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
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Maverick McDougel
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Posted - 2005.08.20 16:10:00 -
[6]
I have to agree with all of this for the most part aside from the eagle. Replace the Eagle with a blackbird with hac resists muahhaha. No but seriously good ideas over all but the muninn does have the same problem as a tempest- you can't fit 6 t2 1400mm's without an rcu iirc. However, anything being hit by a full gank set-up Tempest shouldn't last long, I accepted that with my deimos and so should sac fliers.
---
Insane Angel > ATUK POS go boom
Insane Angel > and heres what ur fellow
[5] members think of it
Insane Angel > [ 2005.07.24 00:53:23 ]
Deros > not mine, so i dont care tbh |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.08.20 16:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Cerb: Kinetic damage bonus is stupid. Make it a flat 5% damage bonus to missile damage.
u forgot increasing the caps and putting a useful bonus there instead of flight time
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.08.20 16:46:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
Zealot if at longer range, Deimos if at shorter range. The way I see it, that's how it's supposed to be. Please, please don't turn into a tard, I usually agree with your posts but this is just stupid and wrong.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.08.20 17:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 20/08/2005 16:49:31
Quote:
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
Zealot if at longer range, Deimos if at shorter range. The way I see it, that's how it's supposed to be. Please, please don't turn into a nerftard, I usually agree with your posts but this is just stupid and wrong.
By your reasoning, since the Ishtar will rule any Zealot attempting to attack it, I should demand it be deleted from the game.
True. Ships cant be balanced just ship by ship, I agree. But you are the one who brought up the zealot vs deimos issue. I simply stated that I feel like the zealot is overpowered, and compared its overpoweredness to a gankageddon which is similarily overpowered. I don't fly them so I might be wrong, but they seem to be the most common HAC and the DPS numbers are pretty damn nice and the optimal basically removes the range problem with lasers.
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Leshrac Shepherd
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Posted - 2005.08.20 17:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 20/08/2005 16:49:31
Quote:
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
Zealot if at longer range, Deimos if at shorter range. The way I see it, that's how it's supposed to be. Please, please don't turn into a nerftard, I usually agree with your posts but this is just stupid and wrong.
By your reasoning, since the Ishtar will rule any Zealot attempting to attack it, I should demand it be deleted from the game.
It would be fine if it really worked like that. But it turns out that in most situations range will be in favour of the Zealot/Armaggedon. And that even if the fight starts close range there's still a fair chance that the Zealot/Armageddon will win anyway. That last thing I think is what he was refering as overpowered.
And Ishtar Always beating Zealot is not true either. Testing has revealed that having a medium TL2 Smartbomb in the spare high slot of the zealot usually means game over for the ishtar...
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Dash Ripcock
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Posted - 2005.08.20 17:26:00 -
[11]
I'm going to defend the Zealot here.
I would agree that a Zealot with a plate and lots of damage output is an issue, but I don't think it's the ship that's the problem here. She only outputs a maximum of two damage types, she needs to use a lot of low-slots to catch up with a Deimos damage wise and she has no drones whatsoever. This latter point makes her susceptible to being taken down by smaller craft.
It's the plates that are the problem. Strapping something that massive to a cruiser sized ship should have a more pronounced effect on its manoeuvrability. This would also address some of the issues people have with the Thorax being too strong against other cruisers - take away the plate and she's suddenly that little bit more vulnerable.
As for the Deimos, a little less mass would be nice. She turns like a bus at times and considering you need to be under 10Km using the standard blaster-rig, it doesn't bode well. Other than that she's a beautiful boat and with regards to the Deimos Vs Zealot issue, I personally feel they sit quite comfortably balance-wise in a one on one.
The Firing Range |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.08.20 17:38:00 -
[12]
nerf the plates..
if you don't agree, try fitting shield extenders sometime (for less HP might i add)..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kaleeb
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Posted - 2005.08.20 18:56:00 -
[13]
Deimos mass reduction would be nice, what about a reduction in mwd cap usage or mwd sig radius?
Http://Guc.webinventions.co.uk |
Lord Morkoth
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Posted - 2005.08.20 19:01:00 -
[14]
I think plates should give % increase on hp NOT some huge number.
We are The Collective. Resistance is futile. |
Calian
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Posted - 2005.08.20 19:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Eagle can snipe ceptors at 150km, and you want to BOOST it?
80mil and 3 months training to fly a ship that can only kill frigates and nothing else? Yeah... you're right, eagle doesn't need a boost...
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I hate everyone, except you. |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.08.20 19:27:00 -
[16]
Ever been in an Eagle when a BS decides to SNIPE BACK?
Not fun... problem is that a fully insurable Armageddon, Tempest, or Megathron can do an Eagles job.
Change the HAC skill Optimal Range bonus for the Eagle into a RoF bonus... then perhaps it would be a viable mid-range HAC.
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Freemannr1
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Posted - 2005.08.20 19:48:00 -
[17]
I think it is the Plates that are the big problem here..
and too the nerfy thingy..
For me it is the fitting that make the ship.. and every ship cant be best on damge.. that is why i like eve..
but i understand the nerfy thingy hehe.. but i think leave them alone.. or we will be swinged with a uber nerfbat that make hac useless like all other noob ships.
FreemanNr1 -CEO-
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.08.20 20:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
Vagabond vs Zealot, who wins? Guess which is overpowered.
That has to be the most narrow minded post i've ever heard come out of you.
Boost to the Deimos? 
________________________________________________________
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.08.20 20:17:00 -
[19]
hmm i dont really know what to make of the deimos v zealot situation. The plates definately tip the balance in favour of the zealot as the deimos cant fit a 1600 plus medium guns without some serious fitting stuff. That aint really the zealots problem. If i would ask for anything it would be a base speed increase for the deimos of 20m/s and thats all, or a mass reduction so its a bit more nimble. But tbh, it doesnt REALLY need it, but it would definately be nice.
As for the zealot, i would agree taking its ROF bonus away, giving it a 5th turret hardpoint and an extra bonus would be a good way to sort it out, but i still think plates need a bit of a change in fitting reqs, or atleast a penalty for fitting oversized plates.
The Ishtar of course is perfectly balanced with all HACs, no need to touch it 
I think caldaris HACs need some love more importantly than anything else though
Forums: Sharks * MC |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.20 20:23:00 -
[20]
"The Ishtar of course is perfectly balanced with all HACs, no need to touch it "
Ishtars should come with pre-made "if you can read it, drop your nuts and run" bumper-sticker ;.;
(except by that time it's obviously too late to run, but that's another story...
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.08.20 20:32:00 -
[21]
can a medium smartbomb II take care of ishtar drones? ;/
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Bazman
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Posted - 2005.08.20 20:42:00 -
[22]
The Zealot is simply unbeatable with a Deimos, using the most common setups. I know someones going to say think outside the box, but come on.
I've never flown a zealot, but when i was messing with corpmates, omg, I didn't even realise you could 1600mm plate it with a full rack of heavy pulses and damage mods using like 1 RCU II. I'd love to fit even 4 Neutrons with a 1600mm plate :/
^¼_¼^
this is bazman. copy bazman into your bio
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
Vagabond vs Zealot, who wins? Guess which is overpowered.
That has to be the most narrow minded post i've ever heard come out of you.
Boost to the Deimos?
wtf does that have to do with anything? So a vagabond can tank a zealot good, so that means the zealot sucks?
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Stormfront
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:17:00 -
[24]
Some ships just outdo others in some departments.
Though, I do admit that flying Deimos (with this char) and a Zealot with my alt. The Zealot is a lot more versatile in terms of fitting/range. HOWEVER, a non plated Zealot is NOT OVERPOWERED.
The plates do have issues and the fitting on Zealot needs to be reworked. In terms of focused pulses and 1600 plate are just too overpowered vs a Deimos.
I would also like to point out, instead of nerfing the Zealot, plz work on the Deimos which is severely limited in what it can do.
TBH, I think the only overpowered hac in game is the Vagabond :p
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:18:00 -
[25]
If you get the DEVs to touch my Munnin i will personally hunt you down in a Raven and kick your a$$. Stop trying to impose how you feel HACs should be.
Upping Large Shield Extenders and adjusting the Caldari HACs are all that need to be done.
jide's oBject eXplorer
The Nest
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered?
Vagabond vs Zealot, who wins? Guess which is overpowered.
That has to be the most narrow minded post i've ever heard come out of you.
Boost to the Deimos?
I agree. Not only what you said... but the whole zealot vs deimos thing is getting old too. Zealot might be an powerful ship... but the day it runs into AC Plated Munnin is the day it lost the fight in disgrace. The three main races are well balanced. Isn't that what the devs wanted... mixed fleets?
jide's oBject eXplorer
The Nest
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Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
From what I've seen/heard about, just some thoughs/opinions.
Amarr:
Zealot: overpowered as most will agree. Switch its RoF bonus to something else and give it a 5th turret. Damage will be the same but it will now have a harder time fitting wise. Fitting a plate and the rest full gank is ridiculous.
Sac: I don't care if its khanid. Its the uber armor tank. Reduce shields by 1/4. Increase armor by the same amount. Its pathetic that an unplated sac can die in a volley or 2 to a gankpest.
Minmatar:
Vagabond: most balanced HAC. No boosts or nerfs needed.
Muninn: Remove one high slot. Add one low slot. The extra highs are worthless considering you need a RCU II just to fit 5 720 IIs, and then if you put on a ab II you have enough grid for only 2 standard launchers and 0 tank. Basically it doesnt have the grid to support 2 more highslots if fit for longrange, which its supposed to be. Alternatively: Leave current highslots, switch tracking bonus for a 2nd damage bonus. This would basically make it the minmatar deimos, though with much less damage (electrons = 425s, deimos has more drones), and no mwd bonus. Might be overpowered at long range, so drop grid by 50 to compensate.
Caldari:
Eagle: Give it a 5th gun. The only other gunboat HAC with only 4 guns has 2 damage bonuses while a eagle has only 1, not to mention that lasers > rails in damage anyways. No grid increases, to fit 5 of the biggest gun every HAC should really need some fitting mods.
Cerb: Kinetic damage bonus is stupid. Make it a flat 5% damage bonus to missile damage.
Gallante:
Ishtar: Balanced, no changes needed.
Deimos: Needs a slight mass reduction and/or a slight speed increase. Mainly balanced.
I agree with you on everything cept the Zealot. 2 t2 tracking disruptors makes the Zealot laughable,but then again that could be said of any ship. If anything the Rof of laser turrets should be increased.
The Deimos boost I have to agree with but believe that the adaptibilty of rails to a deimos should be increased so it can at least fit for mid range damage and not negate the role of the eagle which is long range to extrem long range.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:46:00 -
[28]
I'm not going to repeat something that has already been said, I'll just add a point that need to be considered when speaking about balance.
A deimos pilot can put 2 hardeners (kin and them) kill a big serpentis/guristas spawn without breaking a sweat.
An Eagle pilot can do the same.
A Munnin pilot can further harden it's ship against laser fire (armor tanking) and hunt blood raiders with an equivalent of God-mode.
A Zealot pilot, trying to kill a big angel spawn, will die, because he can't acheive against them the level of uber-resists (85-95%) the other HACs can do...
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.08.20 22:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
nerf the plates..
if you don't agree, try fitting shield extenders sometime (for less HP might i add)..
it would be nice if they boosted them.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.08.20 22:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Stormfront
HOWEVER, a non plated Zealot is NOT OVERPOWERED.
thats not the point
as long as it can be plated, then it is overpowered
how much would it have changed the missile nerf is i said "well, if i only fit 1 siege, then my raven can;t kill frigs THAT fast"
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