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Stuart85	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:16:00 - [31] It would seem that most of the HACs are relatively well balanced - except the Caldari two. They're in desperate need of some attention. How on earth CCP can't see that, I don't know.
Yeux Gris	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:20:00 - [32] Originally by: DrunkenOne Amarr: Zealot: overpowered as most will agree. Switch its RoF bonus to something else and give it a 5th turret. Damage will be the same but it will now have a harder time fitting wise. Fitting a plate and the rest full gank is ridiculous. Ermmm NOT! Originally by: DrunkenOne Sac: I don't care if its khanid. Its the uber armor tank. Reduce shields by 1/4. Increase armor by the same amount. Its pathetic that an unplated sac can die in a volley or 2 to a gankpest. Dood learn to tank.. I recently went up against a apoc and a mega with the help of a harpy in my saxri. Needless to say the mega did pop after a while and it was all becoz two concord sentry guns helped us But hey they had me sweating for a bit.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:27:00 - [33] Originally by: Shadowsword I'm not going to repeat something that has already been said, I'll just add a point that need to be considered when speaking about balance. A deimos pilot can put 2 hardeners (kin and them) kill a big serpentis/guristas spawn without breaking a sweat. An Eagle pilot can do the same. A Munnin pilot can further harden it's ship against laser fire (armor tanking) and hunt blood raiders with an equivalent of God-mode. A Zealot pilot, trying to kill a big angel spawn, will die, because he can't acheive against them the level of uber-resists (85-95%) the other HACs can do... A Sacrelidge can. compare tier to tier. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:29:00 - [34] I don't mind the zealots tank,but tanking and omwtf damage at the same time is not cool,isn't that part of the reason everyone screamed to screw over the Caldari? Undisputed Lord Of The Forums!!! The best joke ever!!!! http://www.livejournal.com/users/sweet__kitty/40953.html?mode=reply
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Yeux Gris Originally by: DrunkenOne Amarr: Zealot: overpowered as most will agree. Switch its RoF bonus to something else and give it a 5th turret. Damage will be the same but it will now have a harder time fitting wise. Fitting a plate and the rest full gank is ridiculous. Ermmm NOT! You haven't provided any reasoning here. - Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:37:00 - [36] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Meridius Originally by: DrunkenOne Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered? Vagabond vs Zealot, who wins? Guess which is overpowered. That has to be the most narrow minded post i've ever heard come out of you. Boost to the Deimos? wtf does that have to do with anything? So a vagabond can tank a zealot good, so that means the zealot sucks? What does that have to do with anything? You brought up the Deimos vs Zealot as a basis for the Zealot being overpowered and then ask why i would bring up another HAC vs Zealot? It's your own stupid logic, look in the mirror and not at me. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Kaylana Syi A Sacrelidge can. compare tier to tier. Yeah good luck breaking any angel tanks with a Sacrilege, it does less DPS then a Taranis ________________________________________________________
Hanns	Posted - 2005.08.20 22:55:00 - [38] Originally by: DrunkenOne From what I've seen/heard about, just some thoughs/opinions. Amarr: Zealot: overpowered as most will agree. Switch its RoF bonus to something else and give it a 5th turret. Damage will be the same but it will now have a harder time fitting wise. Fitting a plate and the rest full gank is ridiculous. Yes im a Zeaot pilot, but u cant remove its ROF bonus, its bonus descends from the Omen, onyl thing i think yo ucan do it maby remove its 5% laser damage and replace it with 5% to max armor, and Nerf oversized plates. But rather than Nerf the zealot, fix the sucky Hac's Sig by Mr Floppyknickers
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.08.20 23:12:00 - [39] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 20/08/2005 23:12:29 I think people shouldn't be allowed to call for the nerfing of a ship until they've flown it for a month or two. I'm sorry, but with the amount of holes in the Zealot's defences, anyone calling for it to be nerfed is on drugs. EW/tracking ruptors > Zealot Laser tanked ship > Zealot Nosferatu/neutralizer > Zealot Two interceptors > Zealot I think your issue is with the 1600mm plate and the fact that the Zealot can fit it and retain some firepower, whereas other HACs can't. Why not take out all your aggression on the plates? There's no reason to scream and bleat for the ruination of a ship that requires artistry on behalf of the pilot to fly :\| p.s. I've never ever heard of a Zealot mounting a smartbomb in its fifth highslot for drone defence. Most folks use that fifth slot for a nos or neutralizer to give it some tiny semblance of defence against inties.
Hanns	Posted - 2005.08.20 23:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 20/08/2005 23:12:29 I think people shouldn't be allowed to call for the nerfing of a ship until they've flown it for a month or two. I'm sorry, but with the amount of holes in the Zealot's defences, anyone calling for it to be nerfed is on drugs. EW/tracking ruptors > Zealot Laser tanked ship > Zealot Nosferatu/neutralizer > Zealot Two interceptors > Zealot I think your issue is with the 1600mm plate and the fact that the Zealot can fit it and retain some firepower, whereas other HACs can't. Why not take out all your aggression on the plates? There's no reason to scream and bleat for the ruination of a ship that requires artistry on behalf of the pilot to fly :\| p.s. I've never ever heard of a Zealot mounting a smartbomb in its fifth highslot for drone defence. Most folks use that fifth slot for a nos or neutralizer to give it some tiny semblance of defence against inties. LOL amen, and if u wanan fit a large plate u normally have to Remove the nos. Sig by Mr Floppyknickers
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.08.20 23:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan EW/tracking ruptors > Zealot Laser tanked ship > Zealot Nosferatu/neutralizer > Zealot Two interceptors > Zealot y :\| p.s. I've never ever heard of a Zealot mounting a smartbomb in its fifth highslot for drone defence. Most folks use that fifth slot for a nos or neutralizer to give it some tiny semblance of defence against inties. Let's go from bottom: t2 med. smarties were popular for raven defence. EW, tracking disruptors... pwns deimos too kin/th tanked ships... pwns deimos too nosf/neut... zealot can shoot at 25+km, deimos can't(wanna rails, fly eagle) 2x crows with standard missiles... byby deimos. Let's continue a list, because it is funny, and i'm in whiny mood. Dual web, smartbombs, MWD sig penalty... Are things that zealot don't need to be afraid of. No webs will stop him from hitting, no need to be in smartbomb range, and no lottery with BS lock time.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Shadowsword I'm not going to repeat something that has already been said, I'll just add a point that need to be considered when speaking about balance. A deimos pilot can put 2 hardeners (kin and them) kill a big serpentis/guristas spawn without breaking a sweat. An Eagle pilot can do the same. A Munnin pilot can further harden it's ship against laser fire (armor tanking) and hunt blood raiders with an equivalent of God-mode. A Zealot pilot, trying to kill a big angel spawn, will die, because he can't acheive against them the level of uber-resists (85-95%) the other HACs can do... rofl.. this thread is about pvp not npcing.. and everyone has issues tanking angels, they do all dmg types.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:28:00 - [43] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 00:29:43 Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 00:29:19 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Meridius Originally by: DrunkenOne Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered? Vagabond vs Zealot, who wins? Guess which is overpowered. That has to be the most narrow minded post i've ever heard come out of you. Boost to the Deimos? wtf does that have to do with anything? So a vagabond can tank a zealot good, so that means the zealot sucks? What does that have to do with anything? You brought up the Deimos vs Zealot as a basis for the Zealot being overpowered and then ask why i would bring up another HAC vs Zealot? It's your own stupid logic, look in the mirror and not at me. Actually I didnt bring it up, but thanks for selectively reading the thread. Originally by: Yeux Gris Originally by: DrunkenOne Sac: I don't care if its khanid. Its the uber armor tank. Reduce shields by 1/4. Increase armor by the same amount. Its pathetic that an unplated sac can die in a volley or 2 to a gankpest. Dood learn to tank.. I recently went up against a apoc and a mega with the help of a harpy in my saxri. Needless to say the mega did pop after a while and it was all becoz two concord sentry guns helped us But hey they had me sweating for a bit. Ahh I see. So the sac doesnt need a boost because you were able to tank noobish sentry tanking BS, which do basically no damage. Brilliant.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:33:00 - [44] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 00:29:19 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Meridius Originally by: DrunkenOne Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered? Vagabond vs Zealot, who wins? Guess which is overpowered. That has to be the most narrow minded post i've ever heard come out of you. Boost to the Deimos? wtf does that have to do with anything? So a vagabond can tank a zealot good, so that means the zealot sucks? What does that have to do with anything? You brought up the Deimos vs Zealot as a basis for the Zealot being overpowered and then ask why i would bring up another HAC vs Zealot? It's your own stupid logic, look in the mirror and not at me. Actually I didnt bring it up, but thanks for selectively reading the thread. You brought up this Originally by: DrunkenOne Zealot vs deimos is the same as a gankageddon vs a blasterthron. Guess what usually wins? Guess which is overpowered? This is what i was commenting on so i don't know wtf that has to do with selectively reading. ________________________________________________________
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:39:00 - [45] zealot strips my cerberus shields (1900) in 2 volley nerf plz -_- ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:52:00 - [46] Facts: 1. Oversized plates are stupidly overpowered. 2. The Zealot has an easier time fitting a plate than others because of the relatively low fitting reqs of the smaller Medium Lasers compared to the Zealots PG (exactly the same position that the Claw occupies within the Interceptors). 3. Despite the plate unbalance, a Vaga or Ishtar is still easily a match for a Zealot. Plates need a nerf, not the Zealot. If you're really desperate for a change, switch the Zealots damage bonus for a second Optimal bonus and give it a fifth turret. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:55:00 - [47] i think we can all agree that 1600mm plates on cruisers need to go the way of the dinorsaur, a freaking 800mm plate is better than a large shield extender and is easier to fit on a cruiser than a large shield extender will ever be. the 1600mm plate is just overkill.. it imbalances cruiser vs cruiser when certain ships can fit them and fit very damaging guns as well :( ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.08.21 01:18:00 - [48] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 01:18:49 Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 01:18:32 Btw my corpm8 just killed a t2 autocannonmuninn in a vexor in a 1v1, so please stop saying "omg muninn is uber cause i can kill sanshas in it!!!" or whatever arguments you put forward for it not sucking. Balance is for PVP not NPCing. I agree, the muninn owns at NPCing vs laser rats. But I wouldnt engage a thorax in it, even if i had a plate. Hell a plate maller might kill it depending on the guns it has on.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.08.21 01:33:00 - [49] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 01:18:49 Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 01:18:32 Btw my corpm8 just killed a t2 autocannonmuninn in a vexor in a 1v1, so please stop saying "omg muninn is uber cause i can kill sanshas in it!!!" or whatever arguments you put forward for it not sucking. Balance is for PVP not NPCing. I agree, the muninn owns at NPCing vs laser rats. But I wouldnt engage a thorax in it, even if i had a plate. Hell a plate maller might kill it depending on the guns it has on. Blah Blah Blah.... my corpm8 did this my corpm8 did that. NPC this NPC that. The thorax could very damn well pwn a zealot or sucreledge or ishtar or vagabond if it had the right setup and the right tactic. Stop it already you aren't helping your case. Its all paper rock scissors and you want to compare my skills and setup to another autocannon munnin? Pff pointless thread.... pointless argument. I am glad a vexor can kill a munnin... it should since it can do explosive damage AND kinetic damage. But then again so can a thorax so once again GOOOD SKIPPIDY DO. But don't think it can ALWAYS beat it.... cause thats plain stuptarded. Zeolot can't own a munnin plain and simple. Its not good vs a munnin plain and simple. That fact has tossed out your whole munnin sux for pvp debate that is many weeks and many threads long now. jide's oBject eXplorer The Nest
Uncle Chuckles	Posted - 2005.08.21 01:45:00 - [50] Edited by: Uncle Chuckles on 21/08/2005 01:46:28 Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 01:18:49 Edited by: DrunkenOne on 21/08/2005 01:18:32 Btw my corpm8 just killed a t2 autocannonmuninn in a vexor in a 1v1, so please stop saying "omg muninn is uber cause i can kill sanshas in it!!!" or whatever arguments you put forward for it not sucking. Balance is for PVP not NPCing. I agree, the muninn owns at NPCing vs laser rats. But I wouldnt engage a thorax in it, even if i had a plate. Hell a plate maller might kill it depending on the guns it has on. Blah Blah Blah.... my corpm8 did this my corpm8 did that. NPC this NPC that. The thorax could very damn well pwn a zealot or sucreledge or ishtar or vagabond if it had the right setup and the right tactic. Stop it already you aren't helping your case. Its all paper rock scissors and you want to compare my skills and setup to another autocannon munnin? Pff pointless thread.... pointless argument. I am glad a vexor can kill a munnin... it should since it can do explosive damage AND kinetic damage. But then again so can a thorax so once again GOOOD SKIPPIDY DO. But don't think it can ALWAYS beat it.... cause thats plain stuptarded. Zeolot can't own a munnin plain and simple. Its not good vs a munnin plain and simple. That fact has tossed out your whole munnin sux for pvp debate that is many weeks and many threads long now. Look I'm not really involved here, but I'm just curious, your entire arguement that a muninn doesnt suck is because it can kill a zealot? That doesnb't se4em like a good argument. Also the zealot should be left alone, it is fine. All the heavy assaults are fine except fore the caldari ones which are just bad .
Hanns	Posted - 2005.08.21 03:02:00 - [51] Originally by: Julien Derida Edited by: Julien Derida on 21/08/2005 01:20:34 Facts: 1. Oversized plates are stupidly overpowered. 2. The Zealot has an easier time fitting a plate than others because of the relatively low fitting reqs of the smaller Medium Lasers compared to the Zealots PG (exactly the same position that the Claw occupies within the Interceptors). 3. Despite the plate imbalance, a Vaga or Ishtar is still easily a match for a Zealot. Plates need a nerf, not the Zealot. If you're really desperate for a change, switch the Zealots damage bonus for a second Optimal bonus and give it a fifth turret. Everyone Read Julien's post, STFU and lock the thread, this pretty much finished the discushen Sig by Mr Floppyknickers
Sorja	Posted - 2005.08.21 04:09:00 - [52] nods Oversized plates are the problem. Not because they are too good, no need to nerf them for cruisers, but because some can benefit from the improved HPs while others can't. Shield extenders, to that respect, need a serious boost. And don't nerf the Zealot. In fact, don't nerf anything, constant nerfing has already caused enough damage. And btw, thanks to those that have the honesty to acknowledge Caldari HACs are not balanced. CCP is aware of the problem but chances are they have 'other priorities' so we might be in for a long wait. Sometimes hard to believe that fixing some data in a table takes so long, but... anyways...
siim	Posted - 2005.08.21 04:35:00 - [53] Edited by: siim on 21/08/2005 04:35:23 Originally by: Maya Rkell Eagle can snipe ceptors at 150km, and you want to BOOST it? If I would snipe ceptors at 150km in my eagle I would have to be really bored
siim	Posted - 2005.08.21 04:44:00 - [54] Dont balance anything except Caldari HAC's imo
Sable Terrick	Posted - 2005.08.21 05:45:00 - [55] Well...First step would be to nerf the plates....or alternately nerf the PG of the zealot down a bit so that it couldnt fit its best guns and the plate.nothing excessive....just take it so that you cant mount a 1600mm on it....or even better....make it so that frigs get 50-200 only,cruisers get 400-800,battleships get 1600mm. Have it written into the code that if you try to mount it on a smaller ship then its supposed to go you take an extra 60% speed penalty. if you want the armor of a battleship you will be flying as fast as one. I know its just a game but i really wonder how many of these mouthy F*cks would have the stones to say that sort of thing in real life.
Hamatitio	Posted - 2005.08.21 05:48:00 - [56] I need 1x CPU 2 1x RCU 2 to fit any sort of rail setup on my deimos (if I want anythign in the mids) That owns. Obviously it was made for close range, yet its speed is laughable. I think a zealot is faster than a deimos. ------ Ham a Tee Tee Oh
mimik	Posted - 2005.08.21 05:59:00 - [57] Why cant people just accept that ships have some strengths and some weaknesses and stop trying to make everything the same. if u fly ANY HAC and come up against an opponent that has a setup which counters yours then u lose and vice versa. HACs are probably the best ship class in the game atm for fun, versatility and general gameplay. leave them alone.
DarK	Posted - 2005.08.21 07:04:00 - [58] mimik, false.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.08.21 08:08:00 - [59] The difference between 'armor' hacs is: they can fit a plate or they cannot fit plate. And if u cannot fit plate 6 heavy drones are pain. ALONE. Not to mention turrets.
mimik	Posted - 2005.08.21 08:31:00 - [60] Originally by: DarK mimik, false. thats what i like to see. a nice well reasoned argument. care to elaborate?

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