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Dex Tera
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 20:39:00 -
[91] - Quote
KILL THE GOD DAM JITA SPAMMERS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE 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Dex Tera
Anomalous Existence Existential Anxiety
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 20:40:00 -
[92] - Quote
see how annoying it is ! |

Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
829
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 20:57:00 -
[93] - Quote
These things don't even cause a disruption of service.
Imagine the tears if "employing tactics that cause an intentional disruption of service" was cause for a 30 Day ban.
The fun never ends, but employment at CCP does. --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |

Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
496
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:09:00 -
[94] - Quote
I still remember the "where should I put my bot" conversations test members had on teamspeak, when they moved into Fountain. That was'nt the only null sec alliance such talk have been observed over the years. But considering the amount people spend on loosing ships, i don't think anything else suffers than the oponent. Although it gets interesting after a while. If alliance A, B and C makes tons of cash botting + income from tax, rent etc, then Alliance D,E,F and G needs to do the same or loose everything. With all the paradigm shifts we have seen these last couple of years. I belive one of the main factors in these shifts have been income from bots. Neither CCP or the Null Sec alliances will ever confirm that, but who needs confirmation, when given time, you can hear talk about botting your self, on the various types of Comms they use.
Ratting bots and mining bots dont harm the game much imo, i think the sheer hapiness of blowing away that cash solves the issue by itself. (As long as its not easy to do) The spamming and market bots are really hurting the game.. People get sick of never selling their stuff or get the same message all over the screen repetadly. I belive the market bot speaks for it self.
Chribba post #6 wrote some good questions about reporting bots. If CCP can answer these, it would be easier for people to understand the process when they report bots.
Vincent post #20 have a good suggestion to lower the count of people having thougths about botting, actually going ahead with botting. He suggests putting it on the login screen. Imo i would put under a security tab in the start up launcher.
I don't know whats worse, bots or the current moongoo/sov mechanics situation... |

Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:23:00 -
[95] - Quote
Bots are always worse.
What pisses me off is that CCP chooses to make a different then literal interpretation of their own EULA and then refuses to tell you if X or Y application is allowed. So basically, someone has to get banned first so the rest of us know that it's not allowed!
It's the first time in my life that I've played a game where the rules are vague and the even the referee doesn't know them! He merely interprets the thing as he sees fit at that time :D |

Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:26:00 -
[96] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:You made me chuckle :D 3/10! A senior GM answering a EULA petition is wrong. And who are you anyway? :) Someone who happened to read several recent replies by CCP explicitly stating that ISBoxer is not banned. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |

Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:You made me chuckle :D 3/10! A senior GM answering a EULA petition is wrong. And who are you anyway? :) Someone who happened to read several recent replies by CCP explicitly stating that ISBoxer is not banned.
Like I said, I made a petition due to all the fuss on the forums. GM Nythanos says otherwise ... in the common CCPish way (read vague(ish)) :) |

Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Respond and ask who takes precedence. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |

Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:40:00 -
[99] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Respond and ask who takes precedence.
If you notice, the DEVs merely say that their policy hasn't changed and since the posts dictating said policy were all ninja edited, no one can actually say for sure what the policy is.
It's stupid and that's what I've been saying all along. It's stupid to be ambiguous about the rules instead of being clear.
If you want to enforce the rules, then do so on a literal base and disallow any and all third party tool like the TOS say. |

Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
523
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 22:48:00 -
[100] - Quote
I always wondered why some people feel such a need to bend everything they get between their hands to something filthy. You say the rules are vage, but to many and me they are pretty clear. It doesnt make sense that you want to do something so out of the box with a game that you have to break the rules. Why play the game at all? Maybe if it was illigal and you could actually get a sentence in irl, you wouldnt do it. But then I'm actually calling you a petty theif.. And you know what, since you can't play fair like the rest of us, i don't mind.
Rules are enforced, if you find yourself at the wrong end of the stick, you can't come and complain. |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1810
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 23:11:00 -
[101] - Quote
mynnna wrote:... instead of taking what appears to be the preferred route of "ignore them and hope they go away." It looks like the security devs in this thread are hoping you'll go away.
Keep up with the questions and pressure, Mynnna. It's an important line of inquiry.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 23:18:00 -
[102] - Quote
Well they did learn from Sreegs, who in many respects was a master at it.  Mynnna for CSM8 |

Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 00:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:You made me chuckle :D 3/10! A senior GM answering a EULA petition is wrong. And who are you anyway? :) Someone who happened to read several recent replies by CCP explicitly stating that ISBoxer is not banned.
I know that ISboxer is currently not banned. I think i may have typed out the question poorly.
CCP, Will you be banning ISBOxer folks when summer expansion hits? I know its been kicked about some but some folks feel it should be removed and ban people using it. as it is violating the EULA. 1 key stroke affect more then 1 client.
so come on CCP I know many would love to hear your thoughts on this. |

Tarpedo
Incursionista
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 01:22:00 -
[104] - Quote
Something in Jita local says (at least to me) anti-botting team isn't too efficient. |

Seras VictoriaX
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 01:56:00 -
[105] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote: 1 key stroke affect more then 1 client.
You can do that with Synergy also.
Some people actually use ISBoxer and alt-tab between the clients. _No_ fancy 1 key stroke = more than 1 action. |

Belinik
Broski North Black Legion.
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 02:01:00 -
[106] - Quote
I too hope to hear CCPs stance on ISBOXER (I am looking to get it myself), but on the contrary i believe it should not be removed, because the player is present when all actions are being given. And all actions are human. Botting is the use of software applications that run automated tasks over the internet. ISBOXER does not automate tasks, and certainly does not hack the client. It simply broadcasts keystrokes and mouse, but if left alone the program itself CANNOT play the game, it simply makes multiboxing easier. |

Olf Barrenbur
Guardians of Asceticism
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 03:31:00 -
[107] - Quote
When I talk about EVE online, I won't mention the multi-boxing: It's a game already known as "spreadsheets online", if I start telling people of the reliance many people have on the current multi-boxing trend, it takes the romance out of it. I sincerely hope CCP will begin to limit the effectiveness of the multi-boxers if not take them out completely.
It takes away from the social dynamics of the game, and just makes it that much harder for the little guy to call this game home.
PS. I hope the botters/RMTers all die in a fire. |

Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
249
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 07:15:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Our policy is that we do not make any guarantees about any tools being allowed and safe to use. We can't feasibly do that.
But client modification right now are anything that injects/touches the running EVE process. That is, reads or writes memory into it, injects and executes code. Basically anything that modifies the client to change the client or extract information that's not normally accessible. That includes bots of course. You should clarify that JavaScript code executed in the IGB is fine. Also that cache scraping is still ok as per the previous GM/Dev ruling. |

Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
132
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 08:13:00 -
[109] - Quote
Count me in as another person that would like a clear position on ISBoxer categorically stated in stickies.
I'm of the opinion it should be banned, but with a 60 day warning period in which instead of getting a 'strike', people caught using it are instead given an 'off the record' 'please stop using this banned software' message.
The case for banning it:
- It results in an unfair advantage in the PVP environment that is the marketplace, allowing effective item duping - It allows extreme synchronization of PVP actions beyond what human players can achieve. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |

fingie
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 08:47:00 -
[110] - Quote
http://memegenerator.net/instance/36374819 |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3959
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 08:58:00 -
[111] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
What I am saying is that the particular player in question had absolutely no communication back from CCP whatsoever despite multiple requests to look into it and even pointing out the likely cause why he had been banned. The timing of sudden action on the case coming only after his CEO and others made loud noises on the forums on his behalf may have been coincidental, but doesn't look good, nor does the fact that he was wholly ignored.
I use this individual case in question only because I'm familiar with it. While you guys do not (rightly so) share details, the player in question was. But in the broader sense, I have a sneaking suspicion that other similar cases exist, and that they're just as often ignored. A real good step towards correcting this sort of problem would be, if a preliminary investigation shows that hey maybe they are innocent, to actually tell them that their case is being looked at, instead of taking what appears to be the preferred route of "ignore them and hope they go away." Unless, that is, the goal actually is to lose customers and generate some bad PR, in which case carry on!
Please let me introduce to the same questions I am asking to CCP since years and they never answered.
CCP have an automated detection mechanism that seems to work very well but also a "discretionary, heuristics based" mechanism that does have false positives. In these years I talked with a number of people who:
- Were banned for "simple botting", that is no RMT, no ISK confiscation, no items being removed, nothing.
- Were not in a "superstars famous corp / alliance" and thus they were flamed and derided on the forums (the few who tried saying something) and CCP never reversed anything done to them.
- Every step involved takes a painful process where the banned guy has to use emails to ask CCP and they take from 3 weeks to 2.5 months to give any answer at all. I can confirm this slowness is true, because I have asked CCP several questions about EULA and similar and they always take 2 weeks to 1+ month just to give very simple answers.
- The forwarded emailed me the replies they got by CCP, basically they were told they were banned because despite no forbidden software was detected, they "played too much and /or in too regular patterns". That's it. Play a lot or too "regular" and you risk the banhammer!
- I had known one of them IRL because he worked in a competitor of my company. He is a good person (despite they are competitors ), he got busted because he played every day 1 hour before work, 2 hours during lunch pause (he eats in the office) and 1 hour after work. Evidently these happen every day at the same hours so he got the "play too regular pattern" banned for it. I've been in his office and he did not have anything but an old laptop with no software but EvE and 2-3 other things like Office.
He unsubbed and stopped playing EvE despite he only got 1 account banned, both because of how he was treated and the lack of any mean to prove his innocency at all. There's no "jury", no "screenshot, log, video recording" that are accepted by CCP except that 1 exception for a software that is allowed anyway (ISBoxer). One can be banned out of the blue for any random reason and then you'll have to HTFU.
That sounds nice and dandy until that one guy is not you, who had maybe played for 6-7 years and invested some huge time in EvE just to see it taken away, point blank. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

coolzero
The Replicators Orchestrated Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 09:04:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Peligro, The enforcer of the lawGäó
name change plz
CCP judge Dredd
 |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2269
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 09:34:00 -
[113] - Quote
Thanks Team Security, your work is very much appreciated.
Couple of small tweaks that would improve EVE and also reduce botting:
- character is added into local chat only when he appears on grid with a stargate (not when he enterd system, but only after breaking gate cloak) Characters entering a system via wormhole will not be added to local chat unless they appear on grid with a stargate.
- NPC weapon timer, that prevents using a station, gate or force field while active, same 1 minute as normal pvp flag.
- move L5 missions to low and nullsec
- finally revamp asteroid mining mechanics and UI completely to encourage active user participation
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Prospector Yurskeld
Obstergo Polarized.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 11:57:00 -
[114] - Quote
Roime wrote:- move L5 missions to low and nullsec
Where are you finding L5 missions in highsec?
Roime wrote:Couple of small tweaks... ... - (change local completely) - (change asteroid mining completely)
Small? |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2269
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 12:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
L4s! :D I blame my not-so-smartphone.
Local change is minor, mining not so small. Your point? Oh right, you had none.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Castor Narcissus
Outerspace Vanguard
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 12:51:00 -
[116] - Quote
Roime wrote:- finally revamp asteroid mining mechanics and UI completely to encourage active user participation
Came here to say this. In the end people will always use bots because mining in its current state ENCOURAGES their use.
As long mining continues to be the bore fest low paying job it is, people will mine. And the folks that know how software works, botters, autopilot @ zero hacks and others that I don't know of its existance won't get caught, no matter how much effort you put into it.
|

Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
742
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:40:00 -
[117] - Quote
Olaf4862 wrote:Just a thought but banning just the account for 30 days is not going to hurt a botter with multiple accounts. Might I suggest a ban on the IP used also for 24 hrs to make the point clear that botting is not acceptable. This will do more then just effect their botted account but any other account coming from that IP. Yes I understand that it might adversely effect players in the same household who are not botting but an IP block might help to put on the added per pressure that its not OK to bot.  It only takes a 5 min phone call to you ISP, just to ask for a new IP Addy. Thus, making your point moot... I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner. Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |

Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
742
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
Tarpedo wrote:Something in Jita local says (at least to me) anti-botting team isn't too efficient. You should speak to Chribba, he's been saying that for..........a long time now!
If him along with his insane database can't get CCP to notice the Jita-bot problem' then, nothing really can. They know it's there, they're either just ignorant to the fact or planning something in the near future. But, no dev has given any thought on that problem....that I'm aware of. I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner. Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |

Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:46:00 -
[119] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Another issue I want to quickly mention is your policy on ISBoxer. ISBoxer used to be "approved", but it's not anymore. This change in policy was announced by ninja-editing a 3 year old GM post. This is a terrible way to announce policy changes, because people don't read 3 year old GM posts every day to check if they've been ninja-edited. Please don't do this in future, make a new sticky somewhere telling people you've changed the policy.
On the issue of ISBoxer being approved, would you believe the words of Joe Thaler (aka Lax), the owner of Lavish Software and maker of Inner Space and ISBoxer?
(To moderators: the link goes to the ISBoxer forums. Please delete the link if it violates any rules.)
Lax wrote:Umm, no. CCP is banning for bots and hacks, not multiboxing. Their policy is pretty much the same as with other games. ISBoxer was never "officially allowed", it's just not prohibited.
As for the ninja-edit. The post that was edited was directly being used by Lavish Software to promote the use of ISBoxer. I'm glad to see that I was not the only one who fell for the inference that the post explicitly approved of ISBoxer By editing the post CCP made sure that no one clicking on the link on the ISBoxer web site would think that CCP explicitly approved of ISBoxer.
Just a little story about that link. On the ISBoxer web site the story is told of an ISBoxer user who was banned for using ISBoxer but then the post in question was made saying multi-boxing was allowed. Actually, Kromtor was banned for using Synergy too efficiently and the change in the edit was a response to Kromtor's request asking for a response on whether Synergy was okay to use. For those who don't parse the words carefully it could appear that ISBoxer was officially sanctioned software. A lot of people told me otherwise.
For those interested in history, Kromtor was the player who used a crazy-cool set-up using wooden dowels and tape, among other things, to multi-box with until CCP gave Synergy the thumbs up.
The Nosy Gamer - Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength - Eric Hoffer |

Prospector Yurskeld
Obstergo Polarized.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:50:00 -
[120] - Quote
Roime wrote:Local change is minor...
Yes, changing local so people logging into the system, both in space and in a station, don't appear in local really is a minor change. There is no way this could change the dynamics of the game. |
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