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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:29:00 -
[1]
The reimbursement situation from CCP is abhorent. No matter what logic you use, you are sure to not be reimbursed. Its baffling as its not money out of CCPs pocket, and playing the game is more fun than trying to play the GMs for some free stuff which is what they must think we players waste so much time trying to do.
Its time for the reimbursemnt claims to be handled by a third party. As it stands the players have no recourse except to simply go on feeling quite cheated, or leave the game and feel some since of justice. Perhaps some independent agent can decide wheather or not CCPs claims of innocense hold water, or a players claims of CCP negligence are more substantial.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:32:00 -
[2]
Third Party ?
Right.
Like that's gonna work.
If you arent happy with your gm decision, escalate it to a senior GM. If those still cant explain what is their reasoning for not reimbursing you, the recourse ends, unless they want to try again.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:34:00 -
[3]
I'll take the job.
Mail bribes (min 5mil) to me dirctly.
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Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Hakera
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:36:00 -
[4]
GM's are a third party, they work for Simmin not CCP.
CCP's role is to make sure their logging is good enough to capture most events that lead to ship loss but lag cannot be accuratly related to an event, node deaths can be, if you look at eve-i server status for eg, it will show spikes where nodes have dropped (happens between 3-5am every day atm it seems)
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:36:00 -
[5]
This is Eve not the USA. You can't just claim compensation when something goes wrong with the world. **** happens, its more realistic.
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wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's |
Guvnor RBM
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:40:00 -
[6]
I've had 3 Battle ships returned to me via GM's and some missing ISK, I never had a problem with paying out, But I guess alot goes on how you word your claim and your attitude when the ask you about it
_______________________________________________
How I feel about Eve: the love/hate-ometer:
Love .|........................... Hate
Loving it !!! , just been kicked out of my corp and turned t |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:44:00 -
[7]
yeah the wording matters alot. Spamming something unintelligible and full of hate is not going to get you a decent response from a GM. Slagging people off because the petition didnt go your way isnt the best way to interact with the GMs. People are usually more inclined to help if you ask nicely.
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Ticondrius
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:49:00 -
[8]
I've tried the nicely bit. Still down 1 Dominix, 1 destroyer, 1 frig (full of Zyd) and a Deimos, all due to bugs of some type or another that CCP later admits to being a bug and I'm never reembursed.
It really grates on enjoyability and really cuts down my desire to go into any kind of combat. I can handle loseing a ship in PvP under normal means, but when you're unable to run a blockade because of some obscure bug that doesn't allow you to jump, or your resistances being ignored by NPCs, and are not reembursed, that just ***** me off.
Aside from reembursement, the GM team rocks. Especially GM Spiral.
"If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault." |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:56:00 -
[9]
Hey Ive had my bad share of not getting reimbursed... especially since a GM told me that it was a bug and its ok that I could keep doing it and I'd get reimbursed when its fixed. When the bugs were fixed another GM came and said sorry we cant reimburse you (4 weeks later... really thanks guys over a billion isk down the drain and nothing to show for it). Needless to say I kinda lost it when I read that. But I took a couple hours off and wrote a decent reply back and am still fighting to get reimbursed :P GM Arkanon the petition is still open :P (8 weeks later) :P
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kieron
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:58:00 -
[10]
What Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:01:00 -
[11]
I lost over 50 million in minerals from an incorrectly ejected job due to a downtime that required a server reboot. It took some time, but I eventually received the minerals.
I didn't use any logic other than describing my situation and the circumstances surrounding it. And I didn't write my petition in an abrasive manner, resubmit the same petition over and over again, that kind of thing. So your statement that you're "sure to not be reimbursed" is largely incorrect.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:04:00 -
[12]
I've had pretty decent luck with getting ships back from bugs etc but I still think I'm 5 BS down from when missiles hit objects before reaching their target.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:12:00 -
[13]
I think the GMs do a pretty decent job, except for one point: When you petition about something that isn't recorded on a log or something (like lag), they seem to assume that you're a liar.
They even add some black humor in their answers. I like a lot the "We hope you recover quickly..." about a loss of nearly 1 million SP.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:17:00 -
[14]
 Originally by: Shadowsword
I think the GMs do a pretty decent job, except for one point: When you petition about something that isn't recorded on a log or something (like lag), they seem to assume that you're a liar.
If they have no logging that could prove or disprove it either way, why wouldn't they assume you're not telling the truth? So they err on the side of caution. The alternative is much, much worse.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:18:00 -
[15]
Well I have never been reimbursed. I rarely ask. I only have even cared twice. Both times were however not due to bugs, but bad game design. So this is really where the call for 3rd party comes from. Currently CCP AFAIK does not reimburse for bad design/flaws.
Like the time Silence The Informant was introduced as L3 but was actually L4 difficulty. Lots of folks lost ships, none reimbursed, and they later realigned that mission. Not a bug, but a design problem.
Also, I don't expect them to reimburseme me (I didn't even file claim) for the isk lost and loosing right now since my POS can't claim soverignity due to bug. Third party might see that differently.
And thats a big assumption that everyone that talks nice gets a reimbursemtnt. And that people who don't do not get reimbursement. I sincerely hope this is not true as it would display a lack of professionalism on GMs part and open the door to favoritism/discrimination.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Shadowsword
I think the GMs do a pretty decent job, except for one point: When you petition about something that isn't recorded on a log or something (like lag), they seem to assume that you're a liar.
If they have no logging that could prove or disprove it either way, why wouldn't they assume you're not telling the truth? So they err on the side of caution. The alternative is much, much worse.
That wouldn't be the side of caution from where I stand. Consider that due to game design some things don't show up in the log. So CCP gets off the hook for things that they designed to not show up in the log? That might be CCPs position, but do you think a third party would agree with that?
The benefit of the doubt always goes to CCP. This is not 'independent' behavior on GMs part.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Bozse
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: kieron
What Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others.
Sorry but in many cases that isn't enough, common sens is something they shuld be allowed to use imo.
We all know how sertain things work in game and what shuld and shuld not happen in certain given situations, for example a fleet fight with 30 on each side with atleast 15 BS on each side and one side get's one kill while the other side kills 15-20, then logic tells anyone that have played this game that something went wrong.
But u wont get reembursed even tho horrible lag killed your fleet just because "there is no logs of lag" even tho as i said anyone knowing the game can see that something went wrong.
And another thing that is kind of disturbing is when u get ranged replys from "drones dont create lag if there is something wrong with them bug report it" to "drones create equal lag for both sides so we can't compensate" in the same petition (not direct quotes just the general translations).
Wich all that have warped in to lots of drones can tell u that the lag is in no way equal, so either they dont play or are lying both quite bad.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Guvnor RBM
I've had 3 Battle ships returned to me via GM's and some missing ISK, I never had a problem with paying out, But I guess alot goes on how you word your claim and your attitude when the ask you about it
The wording, provison of client logs too detailed to be false and even screenshots MAKE ZERO DIFFERENCE to the actual random 50/50 chance of reimbursement. Please stop kidding yourselves otherwise 
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: MOOstradamus
Originally by: Guvnor RBM
I've had 3 Battle ships returned to me via GM's and some missing ISK, I never had a problem with paying out, But I guess alot goes on how you word your claim and your attitude when the ask you about it
The wording, provison of client logs too detailed to be false and even screenshots MAKE ZERO DIFFERENCE to the actual random 50/50 chance of reimbursement. Please stop kidding yourselves otherwise
I have always been polite in my petition and I always got a polite reply in return, I petitioned a loss of ship twice to a bug and both were returned to me.
And I'm certainly no angel.
This is not a hijack
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:54:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I have always been polite in my petition and I always got a polite reply in return, I petitioned a loss of ship twice to a bug and both were returned to me.
And I'm certainly no angel.
Likewise I am always patient & polite and the response times and language has been more than adequate however on two very clear cut (and costly) occasions the lack of reimbursement due to rigid & flawed policy has been ridiculous beyond belief.
And I am an angel.
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Shittake
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: kieron
What Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others.
The problem is Kieron that there seems to be a lack of tools for the GMs. I know of many who have lost a ship and have not gotten reimbursed and I know for a fact their ISP/Internet connection was not the problem. The GM's have said they lack the tools to verify the claim.
Perhaps some more tools can be put into the GM's hands in the future which would allow for them to better investigate reimbursement claims?
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bozse
We all know how sertain things work in game and what shuld and shuld not happen in certain given situations, for example a fleet fight with 30 on each side with atleast 15 BS on each side and one side get's one kill while the other side kills 15-20, then logic tells anyone that have played this game that something went wrong.
that is the problem, you could say it was drone lag, the GM's wont know that other than records of drones hitting you. It could very well be am abysmal fleet commander decision and you got soundly beaten by a superior force.
As others have said, you can trust nothing anyone sends you or tells you in a petition which cannot be backed up by server logs. To trust what someone says anytime they lose a ship sets a dangerous precedent for anyone to petition when they make a mistake for whatever reason and blame it on anyone but themselves.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Bozse
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Posted - 2005.08.24 17:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Bozse
We all know how sertain things work in game and what shuld and shuld not happen in certain given situations, for example a fleet fight with 30 on each side with atleast 15 BS on each side and one side get's one kill while the other side kills 15-20, then logic tells anyone that have played this game that something went wrong.
that is the problem, you could say it was drone lag, the GM's wont know that other than records of drones hitting you. It could very well be am abysmal fleet commander decision and you got soundly beaten by a superior force.
As others have said, you can trust nothing anyone sends you or tells you in a petition which cannot be backed up by server logs. To trust what someone says anytime they lose a ship sets a dangerous precedent for anyone to petition when they make a mistake for whatever reason and blame it on anyone but themselves.
There is ofc alot more facts to that case but i dont want to go to far in to it on the forums as that would be pushing it =)
I do like to add that aside from the occasional "bulls.h.i.t" explanation the GM's does a great jobb, this is more of a beef with CCP for not giving them the tools/right to use common sens in there work.
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Basileus
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Posted - 2005.08.24 17:13:00 -
[24]
Independant GMs? I don't buy it. Reimbursement? A joke. One more reason NOT to venture into 0.0. You lag out, lose you ship and back to the good old veldspar chomping. No, thank you sir.
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Wira
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Posted - 2005.08.24 17:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: kieron
What Hakera said is spot on. The directives for claim reimbursement that CCP has given the GM team is the most fair based on the tools available. To be honest, most companies have a zero reimbursement policy, so EVE is a bit more free than the others.
I have been both reimbursed and not, and while not happy at the moment of being turned down, the staff has always been polite and respectful, and I try to treat them the same. You win some, you lose some, but no one likes a bad winner, or a sour grapes loser.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2005.08.24 17:43:00 -
[26]
Quote:
You win some, you lose some, but no one likes a bad winner, or a sour grapes loser.
Reimbursement shouldn't be about winning some and losing some - THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM 
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.08.24 18:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Altai Saker on 24/08/2005 18:15:59
I've been reimbursed ---> 1 time
I've petitioned it ---> 4 times
I've deserved to get my stuff back ---> 4 times
you telling me in all honsety the logs dont show when you crash, either on a jump in(and you just sit their even tho your in an inty and the dudes in a bs? WTF?
Or when you crash at a belt and sit still and let 2 bs kill your raven while your NOT being warpscrambled!!! CCP I LOVE YOU
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.08.24 19:51:00 -
[28]
They can't even tell what you had fitted. Here's a hint: If I get concordened because I "warp scrambled" a guy in empire (clear in everyone's logs), without having a warp scrambler FITTED, I don't expect to be told I can't be reimbursed.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.24 19:58:00 -
[29]
I got reimbursed last time I lost a ship 
--
Proud member of the [23].
Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else. |
Grizwold
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Posted - 2005.08.24 20:05:00 -
[30]
I have never had any real problems with reinbursement from the GMs of ships. The problem is the non replacement of the mods lost which can be worth much more than the ship.
They could use more extensive logs for assistance but as a whole I believe that they are doing an excellent job and put up with an awful lot of Sh*t.
That said my son had had terrible luck with them re reinbursement so I can understand how some peeps get very frustrated with seemingly arbitrary negative decisions.
Keep up the good work guys!
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