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Akuyaku
Brave Newbies Inc.
9
   |
Posted - 2013.03.22 15:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:(stuff) y'know ... just for grins I fit up a (bad) PVP blaster Mega. Other than hating myself for going with Neutrons instead of 425mm rails, the mission wasn't "impossible" ... I assume that it just took longer than if I had fit for max resists, etc that a "normal" mission boat would have ... in that I couldn't just grab aggro and sit and tank the rats til it was over.
I don't know about "normal" but a good mission ship would actually be fit for max damage and minimum tank. (you can get away with as low as a 400 dps tank if your damage is good) |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1283
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 16:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
Akuyaku wrote:Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:(stuff) y'know ... just for grins I fit up a (bad) PVP blaster Mega. Other than hating myself for going with Neutrons instead of 425mm rails, the mission wasn't "impossible" ... I assume that it just took longer than if I had fit for max resists, etc that a "normal" mission boat would have ... in that I couldn't just grab aggro and sit and tank the rats til it was over. I don't know about "normal" but a good mission ship would actually be fit for max damage and minimum tank. (you can get away with as low as a 400 dps tank if your damage is good)
I was running an omni tank with ~60% resists across the board, and the fitted armor repper was only soaking ~240 DPS (on paper). It has ~100k EHP (94k against straight thermal (missiles), 102 against multifreq), and is throwing 885 (antimatter, no heat + drones )-1070 DPS (faction antimatter overheated + drones).
So, you're trading tank for gank. There's nothing wrong with this ... but the problem comes in where missioners "have" to fit a resist-specific tank in order to run these missions. Furthermore, missions give the (incorrect) impression that a BC or BS is nigh unstoppable. They should really scale up the L4 missions such that you cannot win them without support.
rough approximation of what you need:
1. noobship (because there will always be that time when someone will lose everything)
2. 2x destroyers or cruisers. BC with undersized guns
3. 2-3 BC, or a BS with undersized guns
4. 1-2 BS with 1-3 frigate/desssie/cruiser/BC escort
5. 2 BS, with escorts & scouts, etc.
scale payouts up such that you're not making the payouts completely not worth it, AND throw in the incursion payout mechanic for L3/4 missions ...
L3 - fleet size of 2-4 for 100% payout
L4 - fleet size of 4-6 for 100% payout
L5 - fleet size of 4-8 for 100% payout
Numbers totally up in the air, and are merely provided for illustrative purposes.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
30
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 17:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sprite Garrett wrote:As shocking as this might sound NOT EVERYONE LIKES PVP. Players interested in PVE mission running have to deal with constant griefing by PVP trolls. As for the forum trolls who will inevitably response with flame wars about PVE whining and bitching: IT'S A GAME, it's meant to be enjoyed and there is NO enjoyment in being constantly griefed and harassed by no-life teenagers who hate their lives so much they have to make everyone else miserable right along with them.
I get that the game is open and greatly unregulated and a certain amount of piracy is to be expected and there are precautions PVE players and non-combat players can take to avoid most piracy, but a PVE mission runner is basically helpless while running a mission, griefers can come into their mission deadspace and destroy or steal mission objectives in highsec space and outright murder the player in lowsec space while the player is already swamped with dealing with the mission NPCs. The only option a PVE mission runner has for lowsec missions is to have a squad of friends constantly on standby nearby to bail them out, a HUGE pain in the ass.
There should be ways for every basic career path to be enjoyable and playable for solo players, making mission deadspace private so that only the mission holder and people they are grouped with can enter doesn't interfere with the rest of the game and allows PVE mission running to be accessible and enjoyable for solo players. Other deadspace areas like those found with probing would remain public and open to piracy, only the temporary and personal mission spawned deadspace areas would be private. The change is simple, has no impact on the rest of the game and prevents players who are only interested in PVE combat from getting frustrated and leaving the game (which is a business after all, players getting pissed and quitting is bad for business from what I hear).
I think you are playing the wrong game. Eve is not about PVE and consensual PvP. Eve if about emergent game play and that means non-consensual PvP and other things. Eve is also a social game in that while you can play it solo there is much more for those who play in groups (corporatoins, alliances, and coalitions).
So, no. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
110
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 17:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Akuyaku wrote:Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:(stuff) y'know ... just for grins I fit up a (bad) PVP blaster Mega. Other than hating myself for going with Neutrons instead of 425mm rails, the mission wasn't "impossible" ... I assume that it just took longer than if I had fit for max resists, etc that a "normal" mission boat would have ... in that I couldn't just grab aggro and sit and tank the rats til it was over. I don't know about "normal" but a good mission ship would actually be fit for max damage and minimum tank. (you can get away with as low as a 400 dps tank if your damage is good) I was running an omni tank with ~60% resists across the board, and the fitted armor repper was only soaking ~240 DPS (on paper). It has ~100k EHP (94k against straight thermal (missiles), 102 against multifreq), and is throwing 885 (antimatter, no heat + drones )-1070 DPS (faction antimatter overheated + drones). So, you're trading tank for gank. There's nothing wrong with this ... but the problem comes in where missioners "have" to fit a resist-specific tank in order to run these missions. Furthermore, missions give the (incorrect) impression that a BC or BS is nigh unstoppable. They should really scale up the L4 missions such that you cannot win them without support. rough approximation of what you need: 1. noobship (because there will always be that time when someone will lose everything) 2. 2x destroyers or cruisers. BC with undersized guns 3. 2-3 BC, or a BS with undersized guns 4. 1-2 BS with 1-3 frigate/desssie/cruiser/BC escort 5. 2 BS, with escorts & scouts, etc. scale payouts up such that you're not making the payouts completely not worth it, AND throw in the incursion payout mechanic for L3/4 missions ... L3 - fleet size of 2-4 for 100% payout L4 - fleet size of 4-6 for 100% payout L5 - fleet size of 4-8 for 100% payout Numbers totally up in the air, and are merely provided for illustrative purposes.
The difference comes in with how tanking is done, and the nature of PvE rats. A good mission fit has the smallest active tank you can get away with, with as much damage as you can put on. Where you run into trouble with PvP comes from a couple of different places:
1. Raw Hitpoints are going to be far lower on the average mission ship. The tanking strategy is about long term endurance, not surviving a 2 minute encounter at extreme levels of performance. If you break the dps cap of the active tank, the ship goes down quickly, especially if it's an armor ship. Passive resist shields are often also very thick due to the way passive shield resist works, but armor is 100% about resists and active repair on the PvE side of things.
2. Cap stability. Because of the focus on long term endurance, mission fit ships are most often fit to be cap stable. This means that slots that PvP fit ships devote to Webs, Points, and Prop mods are instead generally devoted to Cap Rechargers. This also makes mission fit ships extremely vunerable to cap warfare, since cap injectors run counter to the long term endurance standard that most PvE fits strive for. This is also true of rigs, where a PvP ship has many options for damage, plugging resist holes, etc... Most mission ships, especially the armor ones, are just rocking the Capacitor Control Circuts to support that active tank forever. You also don't see many dual (or, god forbid, triple) repair set ups due to cap stability... that tank is as thin as can be gotten away with, and you just burn down rats as quick as you can to reduce incoming dps to managable levels.
3. Ewar. Most mission ships just ignore that it exists. Not only does it compete with the all important cap modules, but NPC rats are effectivly immune to it, and defending against it is pointless as you will have it stacked on you so many times it does not matter. The only effective defenses against NPC Ewar are Drones, FoF Missles, and simply burning down the offending ships in between cycles. The standard counters in PvP, such as Eccm and Neuting are pointless against NPCs, and Drones die very vast in every PvP encounter I've ever been in. Even unbonused, Ewar of almost any flavor is going to be radically effective against a mission fit ship.
The result is that a mission fit ship is very vunerable to anything able to push more than about 400dps (in extreme cases), assuming you are hitting what it's tanked against----you can go with far less if you can select damage away from the what the rats are shooting. Even that tank is very vunerable to cap warfare, the ship in general is defenseless to ewar, and if you can kill drones and tank anemic FoF missles, then a frigate and even most PvP fit cruisers have nothing to fear from the average Mission fit ship. In most cases you can have a pretty good idea what type of damage before you ever warp into a mission pocket to roll the missioner---just tank for the NPC's, and fit a little buffer and you will easily outlast him, especially if you have a neut or nos on board.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
110
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 18:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:(stuff) y'know ... just for grins I fit up a (bad) PVP blaster Mega. Other than hating myself for going with Neutrons instead of 425mm rails, the mission wasn't "impossible" ... I assume that it just took longer than if I had fit for max resists, etc that a "normal" mission boat would have ... in that I couldn't just grab aggro and sit and tank the rats til it was over.
I mission with 425 rails all the time, I hate blasters and their non-range having issues. |
Satracz
Meteoric Security Supply Service
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 20:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
I say one word :
Noooooooooo!
OK a second Word :
neeeever ! |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
263
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 20:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
As shocking as this might sound, EVE IS A PVP GAME.
Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
1939
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 20:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:
No.
QFT |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
14597
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:No.
Malcanis for CSM 8.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
13
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mag's wrote:GallowsCalibrator wrote:No.
2nd that no
eve should never be 100% safe |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
890
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 22:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ah, the rage in this thread.
+1.
Standings Improvement Service
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
385
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 23:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The OP's problem is directly related to this current imbalance. He got jumped in his mission, and the mechanics of the game are set up that any reasonably fit ship dealing with PvE is all but helpless against a reasonably fit PvP ship.
We could agree about refucing the gap between pvp and pve fiitting. However the OP's problem was clearly stated is about having people influencing/interfering with his personal gameplay. This kind of issue is not accettable in a game like EVE where everyone directly or indirectly interfere with anyone else.
Is not a matter of PVP/PVE, is about accepting the idea that there's no "private" gameplay, and the gameplay is originated just from players interfering and interacting. I know people saying "go and play something else" may sound rude, but the truth is that this is a sandbox very core concept; if one can't deal with it should reconsider his game experience in EVE.
|
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1288
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 23:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:(stuff) y'know ... just for grins I fit up a (bad) PVP blaster Mega. Other than hating myself for going with Neutrons instead of 425mm rails, the mission wasn't "impossible" ... I assume that it just took longer than if I had fit for max resists, etc that a "normal" mission boat would have ... in that I couldn't just grab aggro and sit and tank the rats til it was over. I mission with 425 rails all the time, I hate blasters and their non-range having issues.
yeah, learned that on the next mission ... got the crap kicked out of me.
Ran, and came back with 425s.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1288
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 23:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:good stuff
Obviously, I'm not a super mission runner. However, that hasn't stopped me from using a "PVP" fit to run missions...
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 00:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
Forgot to add: After one "incident", i don't undock without a point, if at all possible. I hate targets running away at 30% structure. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
698
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 01:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
laughed my **** off.
OP didn't like how other players were interacting with him, so he came onto the forums and decided to get the attention of even more players... |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant
Tribal Band
403
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 01:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
No.
I endorse this product and/or service
I Endorse this Product and/or Service
EVE Online Battle Recorder
When I press F1 I get ISK |
Michael Ignis Archangel
Caveat Emptor Technologies LP
Eternal Syndicate
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 02:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
OP, meet the "probes only" overview setting. Learn to love it. There are ways around every problem in the game... well most at least, if you're willing to put the effort in to solve them. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
722
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 03:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:good stuff
Obviously, I'm not a super mission runner. However, that hasn't stopped me from using a "PVP" fit to run missions...
The only difference between my PvP fit and my mission fit is a scram.
Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
64
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 14:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Velicitia wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:good stuff
Obviously, I'm not a super mission runner. However, that hasn't stopped me from using a "PVP" fit to run missions... The only difference between my PvP fit and my mission fit is a scram.
This is interesting. |
Dash Bishop
State War Academy
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 14:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
Suggestion proposal: EVE Offline.
Remove the MMO aspect of the game, release/repackage EVE as a single player carebear edition. Sell at Wal Mart, next to the feminine hygiene products.
Maybe then this game will finally be purged of all the sissies who just want to AFK mine while watching Netflix. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
39
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 16:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:EVE is a PVP game. If you don't like PVP either learn how to avoid it, (fit a tractor beam and use salvage drones on a drake or something) or deal with it.
So yeah. As said earlier, NO.
This is the easiest way to keep on running lvl IV missions without being bothered ever. Else just keep watching dscan and you won't have a pvp issue during your pve. :D |
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